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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 14:32
European is not an ethnic term, an Itallian would not accept being categorized as a Dane, a Spaniard has little in common with a Finn and an Englishman will not take likely to being called French LOL

European is a term mostly applied by non-Europeans who don't understand or know about Europe, the stereotypical non-European view is, Europeans are a White, Christian people who all share the same culture. Its much like the view of Europeans who don't know about the Middle East, Asia or Africa and just label them all the same.

Inside Europe, the only feel of Europeanism is being an EU citizen, there is alot of diversity and major differences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 14:54
In Spain, the word "European" in everyday language often means "cosmopolitan, liberal, democratic, open-minded, and respectful".
It's the impression that Spaniards have about the French, Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians, and British; as opposed to the "conservative, provincial, Catholic, closed-minded" attitude of traditional Spain.

I believe that it's only in the last 10 or 15 years that most Spanish actually feel being part of this collective "European" cultural and political identity.
Before then, few Spaniards felt they were part of a larger geo-political entity called "Europe"; and I bet that even now, many still don't give a damn about being part of the European Union or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 17:09
geographically Europe doesn't exist. "europe" is the western border of the continent eurasia. the concept of europe as a separate continent is ancient, literally. in the 21st century we know better, we know space and we know the tectonic plates. to say europe is a continent is like saying the earth is a plate. indeed, speaking of europe to me is "euro-centric" LOL



i've almost forgotten to adress this: european = members of the EU? i don't think so, do you imply that Switzerland, in the very heart of "europe" and encircled by the EU is not european? LOL


Edited by Temujin - 15-Apr-2009 at 17:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 17:20
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

geographically Europe doesn't exist. "europe" is the western border of the continent eurasia. the concept of europe as a separate continent is ancient, literally. in the 21st century we know better, we know space and we know the tectonic plates. to say europe is a continent is like saying the earth is a plate. indeed, speaking of europe to me is "euro-centric" LOL


I disagree.
Speaking of "Europe" geographically, is as valid and well-defined as speaking of "Scandinavia", the "Iberian Peninsula", "Anatolia", "Central America", or the "African Horn". I don't reckon that a Turk from Capadocia who identifies his geographic homeland as "Anatolia" as "Anatoliacentric"; so therefore a identifying Europe geographically isn't necessarily "Euro-centric". 

Anyone who has visited Istanbul would know that the city is built across Europe and Asia. The historic and business core of the city is located in "Europe", while the bulk of the residential quarters are located in "Asia".
Many Istanbul residents commute daily between Asia and Europe.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 17:26
but that's ancient nomenclatur. there are also people who would disagree on the definition of Scandinavian for example. some people would say Norway-Sweden-Finland, others would say include Denmark and/or Iceland, again others would say Finland is not part of it. anyways you compare names for regions to names of supposed continents and we know today that europe is not a continent which is pretty much fact and not a mere opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 09:08
If you're going to be strictly scientific about it and go on about tectonic plates then Europe isn't a continent, no, but only specialists think along these lines and on a popular level the idea of a European continent is well-established, so it's quite workable to operate with such a term. One shouldn't read too much into it, a term of convenience doesn't have to be very precise. You could just as well call it "Europe the chocolate cake" provided these words conjured up the image of Europe in people's minds.

To say Europe doesn't exist geographically is meaningless. Geography is theoretical; you can define Europe away but you can just as well define it back in. The geographical borders, nametags, categories and so forth are laid out the way we find most useful. It's never a question of whether something exists objectively in the category we assign to it, the purpose is to create a theoretical system by which we can analyse and order the planet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 11:58
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

In Spain, the word "European" in everyday language often means "cosmopolitan, liberal, democratic, open-minded, and respectful".
It's the impression that Spaniards have about the French, Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians, and British; as opposed to the "conservative, provincial, Catholic, closed-minded" attitude of traditional Spain. 

This is funny, here "European" used to refer to the more laid-back, wine-drinking, more open and relaxed southern European attitude as opposed to the more stuck-up, binge-drinking, ordered but "less cultural" Scandinavia. Nowadays the EU propaganda is effectively changing the meaning of words and views regarding Europe. It's an interesting topic.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 16-Apr-2009 at 12:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 12:07
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


This is funny, here "European" used to refer to the more laid-back, wine-drinking, more open and relaxed southern European attitude as opposed to the more stuck-up, binge-drinking, ordered but "less cultural" Scandinavia. Nowadays the EU propaganda is effectively changing the meaning of words and views regarding Europe. It's an interesting topic.


Seems like that within Europe, the word "European" refers to "Cultures of other European countries that is not yours".

In Spain it certain carries a "cosmopolitan" intonation. We often hear people say: "Barcelona is a more European city than Madrid", referring to the city being a major Mediterranean commerical port with frequent interractions with other European countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 20:41
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

There have been some online board discussions regarding who's European and its term's inclusiveness.For some the word has a definite meaning ( Europe & slavic Russia ) and others would include Caucasian-looking former Soviets like the Chechens & Georgians etc.
 
I have been accused of racism for narrow definition of European & White terminology limit to continental W and E Europeans & Russian Slavs.
 
What do you all think,I like to know AE forummers' opinion on this subject ?


I see it two-prong:

1. Inhabitant of the Continent of Europe

2. Citizen of the European Union
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 20:57
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

In Spain, the word "European" in everyday language often means "cosmopolitan, liberal, democratic, open-minded, and respectful".
It's the impression that Spaniards have about the French, Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians, and British; as opposed to the "conservative, provincial, Catholic, closed-minded" attitude of traditional Spain. 

This is funny, here "European" used to refer to the more laid-back, wine-drinking, more open and relaxed southern European attitude as opposed to the more stuck-up, binge-drinking, ordered but "less cultural" Scandinavia. Nowadays the EU propaganda is effectively changing the meaning of words and views regarding Europe. It's an interesting topic.
 
Sorry Styrbiorn, you spelled Sweden wrong. Wink
 
But aside from that, yes - it's funny what twisted perception we all have of one another across cultures.
During travels and vacations, I found out that the Spaniards are much closer to Danish mentality than ie. Frenchmen.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 02:08
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

In Spain, the word "European" in everyday language often means "cosmopolitan, liberal, democratic, open-minded, and respectful".
It's the impression that Spaniards have about the French, Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians, and British; as opposed to the "conservative, provincial, Catholic, closed-minded" attitude of traditional Spain. 

This is funny, here "European" used to refer to the more laid-back, wine-drinking, more open and relaxed southern European attitude as opposed to the more stuck-up, binge-drinking, ordered but "less cultural" Scandinavia. Nowadays the EU propaganda is effectively changing the meaning of words and views regarding Europe. It's an interesting topic.
Sorry Styrbiorn, you spelled Sweden wrong. Wink
 
But aside from that, yes - it's funny what twisted perception we all have of one another across cultures.
During travels and vacations, I found out that the Spaniards are much closer to Danish mentality than ie. Frenchmen.

It's the "Protestant work ethic", and exactly what I meant when I explained what I meant by "European" on the previous page.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 06:08
I have to say, while my country is inside Europe (Albania), and while in terms of lifestyle and look people would rarely not see me as 'European' by descent, I don't particularly define myself nor my people as European. I know Im generally in the minority here, but Ill admit, I felt more culturally closer when I was, say, in Istanbul or some other part of Turkey,than in, say, Paris.

Perhaps because of the Ottoman Empire and the more Islamic heritage or perhaps something that is relatively artificial in definition... but its there.

Than again, I wouldnt feel at home in Syria or Egypt either....

Goes to show perhaps such monolithic discourses are artificial.


Edited by Theodore Felix - 17-Apr-2009 at 06:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2009 at 01:38
Theodore Felix.
I have to disagree with you.
You don't feel culturally close to Paris because is a big and complex city,something that does not exist in simple straightforward life of Albania.But you do find Albania in Paris even if you don't find Paris in Albania.
In my opinion i feel culturally much closer to Greeks and southern Italians culturally but also  racially.

For me Europeans and Europe are very hard to define.One cant identify them with the Roman empire because north Africa has been Roman but countries like Poland etc have not.

And strangely enough i do think that predominantly Slavonic Orthodox countries are not European,but that's by my definition of European peoples,which i don't have the time to do now.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2009 at 13:18
What we consider as "European" also depends on a great deal on the political integration of the European nations from the 1500s onwards. Certain parts of Europe, that are geographically part of the continent, were often not considered "European" by the Westen European nations because politically they were part of the Russian and Ottoman Empire.
 
The Balkans were only considered "part of Europe" after the WWI, and many people still don't consider Ukraine or Russia as "Europe".
Not long ago, I commented to my girlfriend what I read on the papers a plan to build a skyscraper in Moscow, which would be the tallest building in Europe; and she said: "In Europe? Is Moscow in Europe?"
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2009 at 13:50

European? Easy. It is a phoenician girl.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 00:53
Hey man i did not know there was talk of Europe before WW1.
If you talking geographically then i have to say it,i did not know there was a map called Europe before WW1 without Balkans in it.
Or perhaps you mean something else and i did not get it.Explain it better pls.:-)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 09:55
Originally posted by HEROI HEROI wrote:

Hey man i did not know there was talk of Europe before WW1.
If you talking geographically then i have to say it,i did not know there was a map called Europe before WW1 without Balkans in it.
Or perhaps you mean something else and i did not get it.Explain it better pls.:-)



I've already specified the "geographical definition" of Europe in my previous posts.
The "political definition" of Europe did not, and still does not coincide with the geographical definition.
Up until the early 20th century, countries that had been part of the Ottoman Empire were often excluded by western nations in the concept "European"; becuase they hadn't undergone the same socio-economic evolution as the western European nations.

The same also applies to the great extension of Europe inside Russia.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 10:14
Calvo - the Russian Zar has always been considered amongst the "Royal Houses/Courts" of Europe - agree?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 13:18
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Calvo - the Russian Zar has always been considered amongst the "Royal Houses/Courts" of Europe - agree?
 


Yes. the Russian royal family had formed part of the European nobility since Peter the Great; nevertheless, the country as a whole was often not, and still isn't, considered typically "European". Many English and French travellers in Imperial Russia during the 1800s had asked the questions: is this land part of Europe or part of Asia?

Russia was "different" to the typical European nations in the sense that the Tsar still directly ruled over the empire with absolute power; in a manner similar to Byzantine Emperors or Mongol Khans; a large percentage of the population were still serfs with no rights whatsoever, a relatively weak merchant class, and the absence of concepts such as individualism and the "middle class".

On a fundamentel level, the social and economic structure of Russia was very different to that of Britain, France, and the Netherlands; plus, it was a gigantic landmass that spread directly across Europe and Asia.

Even today, many not-so-well-informed western Europeans still consider the borders of Europe to end at the Russian frontier.
It is not my opinion, but if you ask around people on the streets, it is a answer you'd get from many.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 10:55
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Originally posted by HEROI HEROI wrote:

Hey man i did not know there was talk of Europe before WW1.
If you talking geographically then i have to say it,i did not know there was a map called Europe before WW1 without Balkans in it.
Or perhaps you mean something else and i did not get it.Explain it better pls.:-)



I've already specified the "geographical definition" of Europe in my previous posts.
The "political definition" of Europe did not, and still does not coincide with the geographical definition.
Up until the early 20th century, countries that had been part of the Ottoman Empire were often excluded by western nations in the concept "European"; because they hadn't undergone the same socio-economic evolution as the western European nations.



The same also applies to the great extension of Europe inside Russia.





I think you are wrong on a few points.
And the first and most important is that the western Europe has no right to decide who is part of Europe,since Europe itself is a complex geographical definition.Hope we agree on this.
As you yourself make it clear with the terminology in your post is the western-eastern European divide you talking about not the european-noneuropean thing.

As i told you there was no political Europe before ww1, even western europe was a region with hundreds of conflicts and different philosophies.

It is true that big countries in western Europe share a common origin of the modern values  but that does not make them european and the others in the east not European.

Ottoman empire did not remove the balkans  or its people,but it invaded that part of europe becoming itself a part of europe.
If we follow the logic in your post then all the barbarian anglo-saxons are not european,and all slavonic people are not european,but only what constituted ancient Rome actually is European.

I do though agree on on thing.That if we have to talk about a Europe of values and origins then it has to be the former Roman empire,and countries such as poland who have adopted every aspect of it.Russia is not european nither in term of values or geography.
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