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    Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 05:18
 
There have been some online board discussions regarding who's European and its term's inclusiveness.For some the word has a definite meaning ( Europe & slavic Russia ) and others would include Caucasian-looking former Soviets like the Chechens & Georgians etc.
 
I have been accused of racism for narrow definition of European & White terminology limit to continental W and E Europeans & Russian Slavs.
 
What do you all think,I like to know AE forummers' opinion on this subject ?
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 07:02
By default anybody who has an European passport.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 08:29
In a political sense today, "European" often means the "European Union".
Therefore, "European" refers to anyone with a passport from an E.U. country.

In a geographical sense it refers to anyone born in the continent of Europe, which borders Asia on the Ural mountains, the Caucasus, the Black Sea; and borders Africa on the Mediterranean.
If you were born in what is geographically Europe, then you're European.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 08:57
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
I have been accused of racism for narrow definition of European & White terminology limit to continental W and E Europeans & Russian Slavs.
 
What do you all think,I like to know AE forummers' opinion on this subject ?
 
 


Don't worry about it. It's not like people in Europe agrees on what is European anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 10:36
In a strategical, political, economic and cultural level, there is indeed a difference between countries set on either side of Russia/Turkey. It's not racism (I despite Moldava even more than Azerbaijan, Wink) it's just a fact of life, you don't behave the same with Russia if you have easy access to American military support or not. If they want to put Caucasus in Europe, why not, after all China and Israel are both "Asian"...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 10:52
Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:

 
 
In a strategical, political, economic and cultural level, there is indeed a difference between countries set on either side of Russia/Turkey.
 
 
 
 
I don't consider Caucasus ethncities European,despite some were former Soviet subjects and can pass for southern Euros.My line of reasoning is these people originally didn't share the same cultural foundation of Greco-Roman with tribes on the Europe continent & Russia proper.Turkish and Middle-Easterners aren't European,period.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 11:20
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

I don't consider Caucasus ethncities European,despite some were former Soviet subjects and can pass for southern Euros.My line of reasoning is these people originally didn't share the same cultural foundation of Greco-Roman with tribes on the Europe continent & Russia proper.Turkish and Middle-Easterners aren't European,period.
 


Any nationality that lives inside the geographical boundaries of Europe is European, and anyone that does not isn't. The fact is as simple as that.
The Caucasus, as far as I'm concerned, is not European. 1/3 of Russia is European and 2/3 is not.
Istanbul, although part of Turkey, is a European city, and so is Moscow and Kazan (Tartarstan).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 12:25
I think you are all adressing the issue from a highly erroneous point of view - that of "Europe" being a clearly defined geographical space. That, to me, is an archaic and simply wrong conception that, misinterpreted, can generate all kinds of serious racist and xenophobous atitudes. Europe as continent is one of the most enduring unsupportable theories ever - it is nothing but an Asian peninsula. To call it a continent, a different, independent geographical space, makes as much sense as refering to Alaska or India in the same way.
 
Race should also be discarted from the equation. Europeans have no defined race, and to say that "European" is a racial group is a sloppy generalization.
 
Europe and Europeans cannot be defined geographicaly or racially. It is a civilizational matrix, a set of philosophies and creeds brewed through milleniums with several different origins (some of which originate from spaces you so clearly have discarted as "non-european"). Anyone can be an European by being brough up under this matris or even by adhearing to it free-whillingly. The only limit to Europe is, so far, the planet itself.  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 12:40
Originally posted by Frederick Roger Frederick Roger wrote:

I think you are all adressing the issue from a highly erroneous point of view - that of "Europe" being a clearly defined geographical space. That, to me, is an archaic and simply wrong conception that, misinterpreted, can generate all kinds of serious racist and xenophobous atitudes. Europe as continent is one of the most enduring unsupportable theories ever - it is nothing but an Asian peninsula. To call it a continent, a different, independent geographical space, makes as much sense as refering to Alaska or India in the same way.


You're right that Europe is a peninsula of Asia, just like India, but there IS a geographical definition of Europe; whether it's man-made or not.
As I said before: north of Mediterranean, Black Sea, and Caucasus, west of Urals. When I was visiting Istanbul I crossed a bridge that connected "Europe" and "Asia" because it crossed the Bosphorous. I don't see anything "xenophobic" or "racist" about quoting that because it's simple geography.

For me, "European" refers to anything that pertains to this geographical peninsula, regardless of religion, ethnicity, wealth, or politics.
Therefore, Morocco isn't European, neither is Canada, USA, Mexico, China, or India.

Politically, there is such thing as the "European Union". However, this does not include all countries that are geographically within the peninsula of "Europe".

If you define "European" as a culture, then it's very difficult to draw its boundaries. By this definition, then most of the American continent would be "European", which they surely are NOT.

I agree with you that "race" is out of the question; neither does the so-called "Greco-Roman" heritage.
The Middle East and North Africa were also Roman provinces, but they are not European.



Edited by calvo - 14-Apr-2009 at 12:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 18:20
About Caucasus being in Europe or not.

The Caucasus are divided into North Caucasus, the areas north to Greater Caucasus range.

And South Caucasus, the areas located on Minor Caucasus south to Greater Caucasus range.

North Caucasus are in Europe, South Caucasus in Asia geographically.

But the thing is its not only that Russian Caucasus that are in Europe.

Azerbaijan and Georgia has territority North to Big Caucasus range too.

So Caucasus are mostly Europe, yes. With Russian Caucasus being totally, Georgia and Azerbaijan partly.

Only Armenia are in Asia as whole.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 18:29
I think this should help:

And also notice that Azerbaijan has even more territority in Europe then Georgia.




But what should be known here is: Georgiaphically, Caucasus are in both Europe and Asia. Northern part in Europe, South in Asia.

But it should be also known that Caucasus are unique, we are not European, neither Asian.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 19:47
Originally posted by Frederick Roger Frederick Roger wrote:

I think you are all adressing the issue from a highly erroneous point of view - that of "Europe" being a clearly defined geographical space. That, to me, is an archaic and simply wrong conception that, misinterpreted, can generate all kinds of serious racist and xenophobous atitudes. Europe as continent is one of the most enduring unsupportable theories ever - it is nothing but an Asian peninsula. To call it a continent, a different, independent geographical space, makes as much sense as refering to Alaska or India in the same way.
 
Race should also be discarted from the equation. Europeans have no defined race, and to say that "European" is a racial group is a sloppy generalization.
 
Europe and Europeans cannot be defined geographicaly or racially. It is a civilizational matrix, a set of philosophies and creeds brewed through milleniums with several different origins (some of which originate from spaces you so clearly have discarted as "non-european"). Anyone can be an European by being brough up under this matris or even by adhearing to it free-whillingly. The only limit to Europe is, so far, the planet itself.  
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 07:08
Yes, Europe is pretty blurry, alot of things are when you look at them. We can say who is, and who isn't, but there is a big grey area in the middle.

When I say "European" I usually mean the cultures from the continent or Scandinavia, north of the Alps, and rich. So I don't mean Spain, Italy, England, or Poland. Which is a pretty weak definition under scrutiny.

On the other hand, I think there's a good argument to say that Europe is the part of Asia west of the Russian & Turkish borders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 08:07
Since any other definition than geographical is rendered useless, the outline of Europe is exactly like Calvo said.
It is also the definition that has been accepted for centuries.
 
If you don't believe me, ask the Europeans.Smile
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 08:17
Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

and for "Europeans", this site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Europe

and for the "European Union":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

Many people don't trust Wiki, but for these general articles, most of the content is very precise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 08:36
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
I have been accused of racism for narrow definition of European & White terminology limit to continental W and E Europeans & Russian Slavs.
 


The words "European", "Western", "White" do not mean the same thing, and they never have.

European: pertaining to the geographical region of Europe (with clearly defined boundaries)

Western (cultural): pertaining to a civlization and culture that found its roots in post-rennaissance Europe.... the definitions are pretty ambiguous

Western (political, economical): part of the economically developed, democratic world, which commonly includes Japan.

White: an archaic 19th century definition of "race", fundamentally meaning light-skinned Caucasoids. (the definition varies from country to country).

Not all "Western countries" are European, not all European countries are considered "Western" (either politically or culturally), not all Europeans are "White", and many "White" nationalities are not "Europeans" nor considered "Westerners".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 10:12
Since this is highly theoretical I'm not going to argue over whose understanding of Europe is more appropriate. Personally I find it most workable to operate with multiple definitions that overlap to some extent:

Europe the continent: From the Atlantic coast in the west to the Urals in the east, from Scandinavia in the north to the Mediterranean in the south. It makes little sense to exclude Britain while Iceland is more ambiguous, I prefer to include it in my overall definition of Europe due to other criteria (see below). Greenland belongs politically to Europe but geographically it only makes sense to think of it as North American.

Europe the civilization(s): The political, material and cultural structures primarily built on the legacy of the Graeco-Roman world, medieval Christendom (Catholic or Orthodox), the Renaissance, Age of Enlightenment, Industrial revolution and so forth, that also happen to be located within the aforementioned geographical boundaries. Without the geographical criterion it could be argued that America north and south is European, but with it we must think of these as European-descended rather than European, which seems more in line with how Americans see themselves.

The European people: In terms of biological phenotypes Europe is dominated by the so-called Europoid/Caucasoid type, in terms of complexion the Europeans are on average lighter than most other populations. This alone doesn't suffice as the same biological phenotype is prevalent in North Africa and the Middle East, while similar skin tones can be found in parts of East Asia as well as the Middle East and North Africa. Discarding the notion of a "European race" I prefer to think of the Europeans as those humans who are primarily Europeoids/Caucasoids of light complexion who also belong to my previous two categories.

Lastly, Europe as in the European Union. This one is simple as membership is the only criterion. Any state or individual belonging to this category as well as the previous three is as European as can be to my understanding.

Not all members of the previous categories belong to this last one; Iceland, Norway, Russia and Switzerland come to mind as well as some smaller Eastern European nations. Russia may be seen as particularly problematic as it stretches far beyond the Urals, but in the name of consistency I would dismiss this criticism as no one would consider say France less European for having dominion on other continents.

Neither does it make sense for me to equate Western or Capitalist with European. Communism is as much of a European ideology as Capitalism.

That's it for my take on Europe's identity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 13:11
there is no one 'European' .   A modern concept -peg that doesn't quite fit in any one hole.

possible connections of the top of my head
Geography? maybe
political- WIP
ethnic? no
genetic? no
religious? no
historical? no
language - no

every basic thread will exclude or include some but not others. European is a term of convenience. I am Mediterranean first, and most 'Europeans' belong to another more relevant label like Scandanavian , Romance speaking or ex Warsaw PactWink.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 13:21

Ok Europeans can be;

all the off spring of Europa and a bull.
 
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 13:41
 actaully that would be Zeus. I keep saying they are all Greek....
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