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Forum LockedDeath penalty for Afghan convert

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TeldeInduz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 20:02
Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

Originally posted by Genghis Genghis wrote:

Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

I thought we removed the Taliban to end such extremist behaviour.

Old habits die hard.  I know a guy who fought in Afghanistan, and he said some of them act like savages.

A Canadian soldier had an axe buried in his head last month while on a peaceful mission to talk to village elders in a town near Kandahar. It's been Canadian Forces policy to remove helmets and put away weapons for these meetings and this was taken advantage of.

That's normal in most assymetric warfare.

There's a film made on the Afghan war. Cant remember it offhand.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 20:26
Originally posted by TeldeInduz TeldeInduz wrote:

Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

Originally posted by Genghis Genghis wrote:

Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

I thought we removed the Taliban to end such extremist behaviour.

Old habits die hard.  I know a guy who fought in Afghanistan, and he said some of them act like savages.

A Canadian soldier had an axe buried in his head last month while on a peaceful mission to talk to village elders in a town near Kandahar. It's been Canadian Forces policy to remove helmets and put away weapons for these meetings and this was taken advantage of.

That's normal in most assymetric warfare.

There's a film made on the Afghan war. Cant remember it offhand.

Canadians are used to peacekeeping operations where most of the causualties are the result of soldiers being caught in the crossfire, so something like this is a shock here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 20:40
Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

Originally posted by TeldeInduz TeldeInduz wrote:

Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

Originally posted by Genghis Genghis wrote:

Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

I thought we removed the Taliban to end such extremist behaviour.

Old habits die hard.  I know a guy who fought in Afghanistan, and he said some of them act like savages.

A Canadian soldier had an axe buried in his head last month while on a peaceful mission to talk to village elders in a town near Kandahar. It's been Canadian Forces policy to remove helmets and put away weapons for these meetings and this was taken advantage of.

That's normal in most assymetric warfare.

There's a film made on the Afghan war. Cant remember it offhand.

Canadians are used to peacekeeping operations where most of the causualties are the result of soldiers being caught in the crossfire, so something like this is a shock here.

Yeah, it's understandable it's a shock in a country far away from Afghan, but to Afghans they saw much worse during the Soviet times, and since. Some of the stories of the Afghan war are shocking.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 20:49
Originally posted by Miller Miller wrote:

Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

Originally posted by Genghis Genghis wrote:

Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

I thought we removed the Taliban to end such extremist behaviour.

Old habits die hard.  I know a guy who fought in Afghanistan, and he said some of them act like savages.

A Canadian soldier had an axe buried in his head last month while on a peaceful mission to talk to village elders in a town near Kandahar. It's been Canadian Forces policy to remove helmets and put away weapons for these meetings and this was taken advantage of.

The axe guy most probably was supported by westerners using Saudi oil money to go fight the infidel and anti Islamic Soviets just a few years ago. What do you think he is going to do now that that mission has been accomplished. You don't think that he will just automatically put down the axe and go home living a peaceful life and forget about Islam

 

You're right, the West does bear some responsiblity for the role it played in the War in Afghanistan. Western motives were partially as payback for the Soviet support of North Vietnam in their conflict against the U.S., and partly to help bring down the Soviet Empire which it did. Afghans and Mujahadeen fighters are owed a debt of gratitude that has never really been repaid. All that being said, the Taliban were providing aid and comfort to Al Qaeda which posed and still poses a "Clear and Present Danger" to the West. They were removed to protect lives all over the world and to bring some sort of stability to Afghanistan. That was the reason Canadian troops were in Afghanistan in the first place. It's possible that the mission is shifting and the role of the occupying forces is to become more aggressive. There already is debate in Canada over our role in Afghanistan. If we aren't there to help rebuild the country, our troops will be coming home.

  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 21:30

Originally posted by TeldeInduz TeldeInduz wrote:

Some Afghans are savages, but they have an excuse - their country is in anarchy and has been for the last two decades, all the infrastructure, the schools included have been destroyed, no education is possible - their country was invaded by the Soviet Union. Prior to this there was order in Afghanistan - it had an economy that was big enough to support the people, and there was comparative luxury and indeed even freedom in the country. The country was actually more advanced and civilized back in the sixties than it is now.

That thinking can be dangerous



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 22:41

It is a disgrace, in my opinion, that Karzai's regime would be permitted to uphold such barbaric laws when that government is almost entirely dependent for its political survival on the NATO troops in his country. But, are we surprised? We just witnessed rioting over cartoons (!) by thousands of Muslims just a few weeks ago -- yet another sterling example of the violent intolerance that is so frequently a manifestation of that creed, especially when it encounters basic Western values or ways of life.

I think we are confronting the stark reality, despite what the multicultural zealots have been preaching for the last few decades, that some cultures are just incompatible. In Afghanistan, we should recognise that we cannot transform that country into a Western-style democracy and let the people there govern themselves according to their own values. We should explain our presence there on basic self-interest considerations (i.e., better to kill the terrorists there than allow them to come and kill us in our own countries).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 07:00

Agreed, about the point that Western values and system cannot be enforced on Afghanistan.

Although i dont agree in the manner in which you put it across, one would think that you and all the others that have not learnt manners are the barbarions

Why is this forum all of a sudden putting Islam on trial?

Are you guys really that easily influenced by western media?

On the previous page i have shown that Christianity propagates death to those that leave the religion in a more direct manner. Why is Christianity never put on trial in AE?

O yes and dont start with all the cartoon protest stuff again, we have a long (and ignorant) topic on that alllready. And to be quite frank i dont expect you to understand since the Bible itself insults Prophets such a Noah.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 07:07

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

1- Could you explain why?

2- To my knowledge Maju never defended the US invasion so this argument makes no sense at all.

First as you said to explain it; I would like to say I would had punished him so that other do not convert and the punishment could become a lesson to all others.

Secondly those of my words didn't refer to Maju only but to all.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 09:09
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

First as you said to explain it; I would like to say I would had punished him so that other do not convert and the punishment could become a lesson to all others.

To prevent others from converting? Are you so insecure about your religion that you want to prevent people leaving it by force? A true religion wouldn't need to enforce itself onto people.

Quote Secondly those of my words didn't refer to Maju only but to all.

Still "What happens in Afghanistan is not bad because there are other bad things as well" is not a very good excuse

Originally posted by OSMANLI OSMANLI wrote:

Why is this forum all of a sudden putting Islam on trial?

Are you guys really that easily influenced by western media?

We're not putting Islam on trial, we're putting moronic fundamentalists on trial. However if many muslims keep on bagatallizing the deeds of those fundi's or try to divert attention that will only fuel anti-islamism. The best way to fight against both anti-islamism and islamic fundamentalism is a strong moderate islamic voice. I have said it earlier and I will say it again: moderate muslims, speak out against those madmen and make clear to the rest of the world not all muslims are like them.

Quote On the previous page i have shown that Christianity propagates death to those that leave the religion in a more direct manner. Why is Christianity never put on trial in AE?

Christianity is never put on trial? Are you sure we're visiting the same AE?

Aside from that, if Christianity says the same thing about converts that doesn't justify punishing muslim converts at all.

"Some argue that atheism partly stems from a failure to fairly and judiciously consider the facts"
"Atheists deny the existence of Satan, while simultaneously doing his work."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 09:41
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

1- Could you explain why?

2- To my knowledge Maju never defended the US invasion so this argument makes no sense at all.

First as you said to explain it; I would like to say I would had punished him so that other do not convert and the punishment could become a lesson to all others.

 

Try to apply your way of thinking on the other side: those who in western countries convert to islam deserve to be punished (expelled, for example) so that others do not convert and the punishment could became a lesson to all others. What do you think about this? Do you agree or you don't? And if not, why not?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 09:51

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:


To prevent others from converting? Are you so insecure about your religion that you want to prevent people leaving it by force? A true religion wouldn't need to enforce itself onto people.

Islam welcomes anyone from any religion, and never inforces someone to convert into it but if once a person has converted or accepted Islam and then he/she should not change because if once you have seen the right path then why to leave it so if your child does a mistake don't you show him the right path whether it is by guidence or by force you do try to show him the right path. The same thing has been implemented in this case.

Quote

Secondly those of my words didn't refer to Maju only but to all. Still "What happens in Afghanistan is not bad because there are other bad things as well" is not a very good excuse.

In short I would like to say every action has a reaction. what you do you will see it back. the more extream you get the more you will face.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 11:37
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Islam welcomes anyone from any religion, and never inforces someone to convert into it but if once a person has converted or accepted Islam and then he/she should not change because if once you have seen the right path then why to leave it so if your child does a mistake don't you show him the right path whether it is by guidence or by force you do try to show him the right path. The same thing has been implemented in this case.

In short I would like to say every action has a reaction. what you do you will see it back. the more extream you get the more you will face.

Islam is not the right path. That's my opinion. How can you speak of showing a child the right path (by guideline or by force - that's child abuse!) if you deny anyone else to show him the contrary. Eventually, when the child grows, he/she should be allowed to make his/her own decision. What you're saying is that muslim children are forced to remain muslim only because you and the other muslims think that Islam is the right path. That's , to quote Maju, Theocratic Fascism.  According to this, muslims have no freedom the only "freedom" they got is to be muslims.

That part with the reaction is something you should consider. Islam seems to be the most extremist religion nowadays. What you said is just backing the actions of such politicians as George Bush. Escalading a conflict is not the best way to control it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 12:05
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Islam welcomes anyone from any religion, and never inforces someone to convert into it but if once a person has converted or accepted Islam and then he/she should not change because if once you have seen the right path then why to leave it so if your child does a mistake don't you show him the right path whether it is by guidence or by force you do try to show him the right path. The same thing has been implemented in this case.


The same logic could be applied to every belief and atheism as well:
Once you have converted to Christianity (which is the right path according to Christianity), you should not be allowed to leave Christianity. Once you have become atheist, you should not be allowed to convert to a religion. etc.

You should apply such a rule either to all religions or to no religion.

Quote
Quote

Secondly those of my words didn't refer to Maju only but to all. Still "What happens in Afghanistan is not bad because there are other bad things as well" is not a very good excuse.

In short I would like to say every action has a reaction. what you do you will see it back. the more extream you get the more you will face.


aha, so killing converts is a reaction to the US invasion.

Doesn't make sense to me.



Edited by Mixcoatl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 12:21
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

if once a person has converted or accepted Islam and then he/she should not change because if once you have seen the right path then why to leave it


Maybe because you come to believe it is flawed or not the right path? The same reason anyone changes beliefs.

Quote so if your child does a mistake don't you show him the right path whether it is by guidence or by force you do try to show him the right path. The same thing has been implemented in this case.




So Muslims are like children? They can't think for themselves without clerics telling them to behave?

And how often do you guide children by executing them, anyway? Sounds like some radical parenting, for sure.

Edited by edgewaters
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 12:27

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

strong moderate islamic voice. I have said it earlier and I will say it again: moderate muslims, speak out against those madmen and make clear to the rest of the world not all muslims are like them.

Moderate Muslims

I hope you dont mean those that dilute the religion. If so than no thanks. Islam will not end up like other religions that edit to fit their personal needs rather than that of the community.

A practising Muslim is what you guys should be calling for. Since a practicing and knowledgable Muslim will be the voice that calls for the ending of terrorism and for justice in the world. As has been proven in the past when many faiths lived under the umbrella of Islamic ruling.



Edited by OSMANLI

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 12:40

And how often do you guide children by executing them, anyway? Sounds like some radical parenting, for sure.


That is exactly why I thinking If my son make a mistake I wont think to kill him.



Edited by Mortaza
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 12:51

Osmanli,

It is true that many faiths lived under the Ottomans, but never as equals.  The millet system never allowed that. Non-Muslims were dhimmis, without political rights and forced to pay a variety of taxes for the "privilege" of practising their faith. 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 13:48
Originally posted by Cunctator Cunctator wrote:

Osmanli,

It is true that many faiths lived under the Ottomans, but never as equals.  The millet system never allowed that. Non-Muslims were dhimmis, without political rights and forced to pay a variety of taxes for the "privilege" of practising their faith. 

 

 2/3 of the population of the Roman Empire were slaves and during the European colonial era native populations the world over were forced to supply raw materials for the growing industries of the west with little benefit to themselves. When compared to other Empires the Ottomans seem enlightened.



Edited by DukeC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 13:52

Why are you being so specific about the Ottomans Cunctator?

Well if your not going to be general then why not mention where the Jews went after they were expelled from Spain, Why not mention a comparison between the ruling of Jerusalem under the Muslims, Christians and the Jews and to which was the best and most fair?

Non-Muslims not having political rights in the Ottoman Empire, strange considering the fact that many of the administrators of the empire were non-Muslim which included many Armenians, Greeks etc

Note: The end of the Ottoman empire can hardly be classified as Islamic since ideologies such as Westernisation and Nationalism was gaining influence leading up to the birth of the Turkish Republic



Edited by OSMANLI

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 14:26

DukeC -- yes, the empires exploited the territories they conquered. That's not linked to a religion, as all empires have done that. But in the Ottoman Empire, apostasy was punished, and you had no political rights and strictly circumscribed legal rights if you were not Muslim. The same charge cannot be applied to, say, the British Empire. But I would not be so foolish to argue that there were not serious abuses (Belgian Congo for example). And of course, not all empires are the same. It was the British Empire that championed the abolition of slavery and the slave trade. It was Ghandi's skillful use of British legal rights to undermine the Raj.

Osmanli -- I used the Ottomans because of your forum ID and where you are (Turkey). But I think much the same description applies to the Mughal empire also. Mosques were built on top of destroyed Hindu temples in India -- and guess who destroyed the temples?!!!

There are other less imperial, less ancient cases. In Saudi Arabia, there are no churches or synagogues for those two "peoples of the book." In Pakistan, churches are regularly attacked and worshippers murdered, and Christians (don't think that there are many Jews there) are systematically discriminated against. In Egypt, Copts are regularly attacked by mobs going into and leaving churches. In Iraq, the Assyrian Christians have been the target of jihadist bombings. Its a pretty long list.

The modern Republic of Turkey has a much better record of tolerance, despite a few blemishes (the continuing refusal by Erdogan to allow an Orthodox seminary is an example). But, of course, Ataturk built a state that embraced laicism.

By the way, I might be wrong here, but I think that most (if not all) the administrators of the Ottoman Empire were Muslims. They might well have been ethnic-Armenians or ethnic-Albanians (e.g., Korprulu family) or even ethnic-Jews, but I believe they were all converts to Islam. But, as I say, I might be wrong about that, and I would like to know more details if I am.

At the root of this discussion are two examples. Attached to your contributions to this forum are two images. One is a sign urging people to boycott Denmark, presumably because of the cartoon controversy. The other is a statement about Allah. You can post both of these on this forum because the notion of freedom of speech, provided it is civil, reigns supreme here. Differences are tolerated and no one expects you or I to agree. In most Muslim countries (your own might be an exception), printing cartoons that are deemed religiously offensive is proscribed -- and several editors in those countries have been arrested. And in those countries you cannot ever deny the sanctity of Allah or Mohammed or any of their teachings. That is the fundamental difference. Islam is not a tolerant religion (although some individual Muslims might be eminently tolerant) and Sharia is incompatible with Western understandings of freedom. Killing someone for apostasy (the source of this exchange) is inherent in its teachings.

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