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Forum LockedDacians, thracians, and their stuff.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 17:52
Were there any other "barbarian" civilizations in particular that had similar success in terms of societal organization?

I'm getting an interesting picture of the Dacians here...more united than most other "barbarians", good enough fighters-or led well enough-to beat the romans a few times, built a lot of fortresses...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 21:32
I think that Dacians haven't a superior level of organization, but just a more centralized one, but this only in the time of Burebista and later in the time of Decebal.

This was possible due to the clossenes to the Greeks and later Romans and with the advantage of being naturaly protected by the Danube, which delaied their conquest by Romans.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 22:31
So due to environmental defenses combined with the influence of threatening neighbors that also served as something of a political model, the Dacians had the chance that was denied many other "barbarian" tribes...

interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 12:19
Crlomanesti, a dava in Buzau county


This is the main Dacian settlement in Buzau county. It was the center of the Dacians in these parts, perhaps the Caucodava (because in the 4th century the Goths were fighting against the Huns in Caucaland, which was located in Buzau mountains, and a Dacian tribe called Caucocensii is mentioned by Ptolemy in this area.

In 2003 have been discovered a huge absidal building.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2007 at 15:19
Originally posted by Tar Szernd Tar Szernd wrote:

Cert. no, but the heavy armoured riders were sarmatians on both sides. The dacian cavalry is wearing dacian clothes on the c.



I got some information from someone who works in the field of history, saying that have been discovered in diverse places of Romania fragments of five Dacian armures, made of rings and scalds.

One of it is the second oldest in the world.

One can be seen at the museum in Hunedoara castle (near the castle this year have been made very important Dacian discoveries).



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ritallos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 09:23
Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:


Very interesting. Are there any sources in the internet for that?


First, this topic were in last hours have been a discussion on this subject (to the end of this page and the next page):
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22010&PN=5


Second, I'm not informed, but look what I found with Google:

Proto-Indo-European to Dacian sound changes


Dacian and Thracian as Southern Baltoidic


The Problem of Ancient Minor Languages and Their Origin



There are some mysterious connection between Lituanian and Romanian traditions. I remember the most signifiant, the fact that only the two people have a kind of song (prolonged, slow and sad) called Doina in Romanian and Daina in Lituanian.




You might want to check out some scholars before jumping to rash Internet-based conclusions: Getica (Vasile Parvan), Essential Myths (Victor Kernbach), Zalmoxis intre Herodot si Mircea Eliade (Dan Dana), Zalmoxis the Vanishing God (Mircea Eliade), Naissances mystiques (Mircea Eliade)

There are numerous hypotheses regarding the name Zalmoxis. Some scholars, like Porphirios trace the name back to a Thracian root (zalmos, meaning "fur" or "skin"); others, like Cless assocaite Zalmoxis with other dieties of the earth, like the Lithuanian Zemeluks, or the goddess Semele, mother of Dyonisus. This theory would be strengthened by the relation of said names with the Thracian term for earth, zemelen. Zemelen itself is derived from Proto-Indo-European heritage, being associated with g'hemel (meaning "that which is the earth's own"). And the list and complication could go on. Take a gander at some of the books I have listed. You won't be sorry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 15:47
I think Dacian is more related to Thracian than Lithuanian. As Ritallos said Zemelen is Thracian, while Phrygians said zamelos\zemelos, Greeks said Semele (godess), Semeleus (offspring of Semele) or Semelos (snail) and i'm pretty sure there are other cognates in other languages.

Even Albanian has a respectful number of words that cognate with Dacian words. This can't really be a coincidence and therefore i tend to believe Dacian is a balkanic language. The rest can be like it often happens, similarities of the IE languages or a heavy influence by languages spoken north of Romania.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 16:07
The point is that Thracian itself may be close to Baltic languages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 15:12
Originally posted by ritallos ritallos wrote:

You might want to check out some scholars before jumping to rash Internet-based conclusions: Getica (Vasile Parvan), Essential Myths (Victor Kernbach), Zalmoxis intre Herodot si Mircea Eliade (Dan Dana), Zalmoxis the Vanishing God (Mircea Eliade), Naissances mystiques (Mircea Eliade)
 Your recommendations are welcome but in my opinion not all of them are so informative or reliable.
Authors like Kernbach (a SF writer with interest in mythologies) and D. Manolache and some others advertised in the other thread about Dacians should be avoided at all costs, for they are anything but scholars. Mircea Eliade is a scholar of religion but his work has little real information about these ancient societies.
 
Dan Dana's book is interesting and informative, however it's not so much about Dacians, Thracians or Zalmoxis, it is a historiographic, anti-positivist, "postmodern" approach. As the author himself argues, it is a book of pretexts, as people (the author himself, as well) start to write about Zalmoxis but actually write about something else. It is actually a history of the understanding of Zalmoxis, from the ancient Greeks to modern times.
 
Quote There are numerous hypotheses regarding the name Zalmoxis. Some scholars, like Porphirios trace the name back to a Thracian root (zalmos, meaning "fur" or "skin"); others, like Cless assocaite Zalmoxis with other dieties of the earth, like the Lithuanian Zemeluks, or the goddess Semele, mother of Dyonisus. This theory would be strengthened by the relation of said names with the Thracian term for earth, zemelen. Zemelen itself is derived from Proto-Indo-European heritage, being associated with g'hemel (meaning "that which is the earth's own"). And the list and complication could go on. Take a gander at some of the books I have listed. You won't be sorry.
The theory connecting Zalmoxis to earth is derived from the metathetic form Zamolxis and it was promoted by scholars such as P. Kretschmer and I. I. Russu. However the form Zamolxis (which was compared with the Phrygian zemelen, with the Greek / Asian Semele, with the Slavic zemlja, etc.) is not authentic and the subsequent theory of the chthonic character of this god rests on shaky grounds.
 
The form Zalmoxis has some parallels in the Thracian linguistic area. We have the name Zalmodegikos attested in IScM 8. Possibly related are the Thracian names Ebruzelmis/Abruzelmis, Dizazelmis, Auluzelmis, etc.. As you pointed out, Porphyrios (3rd century AD) narrated a legend to justify this name with a Thracian word, zalmos, meaning "fur, skin". Based on this account some scholars found also the meaning "protection", hence this god was seen as a protecting god. The -xis ending it is commonly interpreted in relation with Iranian (khshaya, khshathra , etc.), hence Zalmoxis is supposed to mean "protecting king/lord/ruler" (in some sort of Thraco-Scythian syncretism).
 
Whatever zalmo- meant, another plausible hypothesis (I. I. Russu and commented by Dan Dana as "very probable") is to consider the original name Zalmozis (the confusion between z and x is quite common in Greek paleography), thus showing a suffix attested in several other names (see (Ge)Beleizis in the same Herodotean account, but also the names Zourazi, Disdozi, Eithazi of the Dacian soldiers serving in eastern Egypt in early 2nd century AD)
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 22-Apr-2009 at 15:16
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