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Forum Lockedcreationism or evolution

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Poll Question: which do you believe is right and why
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Post Options Post Options   Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: creationism or evolution
    Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 00:45
Please discuss, bring science and religion but please lets not get overheated on it,
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:34
Evolution, of course.
 
The Genesis say it. I quote:
 

Genesis 4-31 then describe God's "making" and "creating" over six days, each an act by Divine speech introduced by the phrase "And God said...":

  • First day: God creates light ("And God said, Let there be light!..."); the light is divided from the darkness, and "day" and "night" are named.
  • Second day: God creates a firmament "in the midst of the waters," to divide the waters above from the waters below; and the firmament is named "heaven."
  • Third day: God gathers the waters under the firmament into one place, and dry land appears; "earth" and "sea" are named; and God brings forth grass, herbs and fruit-bearing trees on the Earth.
  • Fourth day: God creates lights in the firmament of Heaven, to separate light from darkness and to be for signs and for seasons and for days and years. Two great lights are made to rule the day and the night, and the stars.
  • Fifth day: God creates birds and sea creatures; they are commanded to be fruitful and multiply.
  • Sixth day: God creates wild beasts, livestock and reptiles upon the Earth. "And God said: 'Let us make man in our image." They are told to "be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it," and both humans and animals are given plants to eat. "And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good."

On the seventh day God, having completed his creation, rests. "And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it He rested from all His work which God in creating had made."

Now, those steps match the evolution of the universe, given people accept that a "day" is a long period of time, and not just the revolution of earth.
 
I don't see the contradiction at all.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:46
Undoubtably both evolution and the old testament are wrong, here's the proof.
 
 
 
In the beginning, Ginnungagap yawned across the great void between the realms of fire and cold. When the warm air from the south met the cold air from the north, the ice of Ginnungagap began to melt. Drop by drop fell forming Ymir, the Frost Giant and first living thing of all. And from Ymir sprang the race of Frost Giants. The drops of melting ice from Ginnungagap also formed Audhumla, the primal cow. Her milk nourished Ymir at the start of creation. As Audhumla licked and licked at the ice of Ginnungagap, she revealed something frozen in the ice. She licked for days and finally Buri, the first man, was freed from his frozen prison. Buri, had a son, Bor, who married Bestla, the daughter of a Frost Giant. They in turn had three sons, Odin, Vili, and Ve. These were the first gods.
 
The three brothers grew tired of the brutality of the evil Ymir, so they did battle with the Frost Giants and slew Ymir. The blood of the fallen Giant flowed, flooding the land and drowning all of his Frost children, except for Bergelmir and his wife whom fled using a hollowed tree trunk as a boat. It is these two who continued the race of Frost Giants in the land of Jotunheim.

The gods Odin, Vili, and Ve then used Ymir's carcass to create Midgard, the world of men. They used his flesh to create the earth, his broken bones to make the mountains, his teeth to make the rocks, and his hair to create the trees. From his blood they made the lakes and the sea and from his skull the brothers fashioned the sky, placing four dwarfs, Nordi, Sudri, Austri, and Vestri, at its corners to hold it up. Then the three gods used sparks to create the sun, the moon, and the stars.

Later, the gods found some driftwood on the seashore. They took the fallen ash tree and created man. And from the fallen elm tree they fashioned woman. Odin breathed life into them. Vili gave them intelligence and emotion, and Ve gave them the ability to see and hear. Thus were created the first man and woman on Midgard.

 


Edited by Paul - 09-Dec-2007 at 02:47
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:57
Well, I could put in here the Popol Vuh (Mayan) version of "trial and error" evolution LOL. Later, when the thread heats on.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 03:00
If we are evolved from apes, and god created all life on earth...both.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bgturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 10:50
Evolution obviously. The theory may be imperfect and may need some refinement here and there but it is backed by some evidence at the very least.
Creationism is a belief no backed by any evidence.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 11:33
ive recently read an article which poked large holes in evolution, which has always been where i put my flag on the issue, im not very clued up on the subject, ive read the origin of species and the ascent of man, but a lot of knowledge has been gathered since these were published, such as work with dna and the human genome project and the launch of hubble to name a few, ive been on the net looking at creationist theories which there are many types, and they seem to have as much science going for them as evolution, i was very confused as to what to think so i thought id consult a higher intelect, ie you lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 16:12
Out of curiosity what were the holes that creationism poked in evolution, longshanks? Personally I'm siding with evolution on this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 16:17
I will look it out again, sadly i cant put the article on here, have not got a clue how to.
I will find the web site, im in the evolution camp too being a non beleiver, it just led me to start thinking maybe both are very wrong.
will get back with the site.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 19:57
Originally posted by Paul

<FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#000066 size=2>Undoubtably both evolution and the old testament are wrong, here's the proof.

 

 

 

In the beginning, [COLOR=#0000ff">Ginnungagap[/COLOR"> yawned across the great void between the realms of fire and cold. When the warm air from the south met the cold air from the north, the ice of Ginnungagap began to melt. Drop by drop fell forming [COLOR=#0000ff">Ymir[/COLOR">, the Frost Giant and first living thing of all. And from Ymir sprang the race of Frost Giants. The drops of melting ice from Ginnungagap also formed Audhumla, the primal cow. Her milk nourished Ymir at the start of creation. As Audhumla licked and licked at the ice of Ginnungagap, she revealed something frozen in the ice. She licked for days and finally Buri, the first man, was freed from his frozen prison. Buri, had a son, Bor, who married Bestla, the daughter of a Frost Giant. They in turn had three sons, [COLOR=#0000ff">Odin, Vili, and Ve[/COLOR">. These were the first gods.

 



The three brothers grew tired of the brutality of the evil Ymir, so they did battle with the Frost Giants and slew Ymir. The blood of the fallen Giant flowed, flooding the land and drowning all of his Frost children, except for Bergelmir and his wife whom fled using a hollowed tree trunk as a boat. It is these two who continued the race of Frost Giants in the land of [COLOR=#0000ff">Jotunheim[/COLOR">.

The gods Odin, Vili, and Ve then used Ymir's carcass to create [COLOR=#0000ff">Midgard[/COLOR">, the world of men. They used his flesh to create the earth, his broken bones to make the mountains, his teeth to make the rocks, and his hair to create the trees. From his blood they made the lakes and the sea and from his skull the brothers fashioned the sky, placing four [COLOR=#0000ff">dwarfs[/COLOR">, Nordi, Sudri, Austri, and Vestri, at its corners to hold it up. Then the three gods used sparks to create the sun, the moon, and the stars.

Later, the gods found some driftwood on the seashore. They took the fallen ash tree and created man. And from the fallen elm tree they fashioned woman. Odin breathed life into them. Vili gave them intelligence and emotion, and Ve gave them the ability to see and hear. Thus were created the [COLOR=#0000ff">first man and woman[/COLOR"> on Midgard.


 



wow - true story???
I prefer the Greek version!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 20:05
Originally posted by King John

Out of curiosity what were the holes that creationism poked in evolution, longshanks? Personally I'm siding with evolution on this one.


Dr Hovind and also Dr Eastman are well known creationist.

who knows maybe the Hindus are right and it is all an illusion.
I have heard both argument and figure only death will tell us the truth, cynical. What is truth! Listen to both sides and then decide for yourselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 22:06
Evolution is a reality. Theories are just a matter of how it works.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 23:13
If a Creator exists He can simulate evolution and anything else.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 01:17
Undoubtably both evolution and the old testament are wrong, here's the proof.


I prefer this version of proof Paul: Science vs. Norse

Evolution is a reality.


Really? Because I'd like to know where it was proven? Which laboratory has duplicated the results of evolution?

Evolution has major holes in it. For instance there is a lack of transitional forms in the evolutionary record. All such "links" are made in the minds of men. Which isn't that outrageous since the human mind is designed to find patterns, however this works to our disadvantage since our minds also find patterns when there are none to behold.

For instance, we are led to believe that evolution is a steady process of adaptation, however all fossils we find are separate creations, there are no missing links, because according to the evolutionary model we are to "fill in the blanks" with these links. Heck there is evidence that the archaeopteryx was a contemporary with other birds. How does the missing link that "evolved into" birds exist with other birds?

Also there are creatures that have no apparent link to any creature. Bats for instance are an anomaly that doesn't help support evolution.

Also genetic comparisons have shown that the standard evolutionary model may not be valid, the discovery that Archaea are different from other Bacteria for instance, and thus evolution needs to be re-written or some other theory needs to fix the problems.

Also the origin of life (not the same thing as the theory of evolution but related to it), has major problems as scientists cannot adequetly describe how life came from nonlife. This is the theory that evolution is based on, simpler forms becoming more complex to allow the creation of DNA, RNA,etc. that allows for the inheritance of traits.

What do I think? I think that neither evolution or creationism is right and that more money should be spent researching alternative theories.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 01:57
Really?

Yes, read your own post. You say that it has major holes. Well, that may be true. Scientists do not exactly know how this mechanism works, yet it is still there. Evolution - in this sense - cannot be wrong.

What do I think? I think that neither evolution or creationism is right and that more money should be spent researching alternative theories.

Creationism has zero scientific value as it deals with metaphysics. And of course no money should be spend on pseudo-scientific religious superstition.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 13:25
Originally posted by JanusRook


Really? Because I'd like to know where it was proven? Which laboratory has duplicated the results of evolution?

Laboratory? Who needs laboratories? Go to the first farmer specialized in bulls, horses and dogs and he'll tell you all you need to know about evolution, proven by hundreds of years of experience many of which on record.


Evolution has major holes in it. For instance there is a lack of transitional forms in the evolutionary record.

Gasp, check the evolution tree of the horse, the whale and the elephant amongst others. Is there holes? Yes, there should be some considering how old they are, but are you sure you could find all the links between say the bulldog and the poodle?


For instance, we are led to believe that evolution is a steady process of adaptation, however all fossils we find are separate creations, there are no missing links, because according to the evolutionary model we are to "fill in the blanks" with these links.

Actually, you are asking too much too soon. There are still discussions going on over whether the evolution happens slowly or quickly, does that disprove the whole theory? Does the fact that we can't predict earthquakes prove earthquake don't exist? The questions arise as science goes along, asking for all of them to be answered at once is childish.


Also there are creatures that have no apparent link to any creature. Bats for instance are an anomaly that doesn't help support evolution.

Wrong again… flying was "invented" several times by natures (insects, birds, reptiles). It is arguably a difficult feat and an expensive one but it does happen. One interesting experiment is to pull the skin of a cat under its front legs and see that there is enough of it to look like the flying squirrel. Cat -> flying squirrel -> bat… Of course they are not of the same family, but the common feature offer a reasonably good example of evolution at play. I find it way more exciting to think that in 100,000 years domestic casts will fly rather than "knowing" they will stay like that for ever.


Also genetic comparisons have shown that the standard evolutionary model may not be valid, the discovery that Archaea are different from other Bacteria for instance, and thus evolution needs to be re-written or some other theory needs to fix the problems.

Once more, does ONE problem proves the whole thing wrong?


Also the origin of life (not the same thing as the theory of evolution but related to it), has major problems as scientists cannot adequetly describe how life came from nonlife. This is the theory that evolution is based on, simpler forms becoming more complex to allow the creation of DNA, RNA,etc. that allows for the inheritance of traits.

Once more, who says, this won't stay an enigma until a brilliant mind finally find the answer in 2817? Look at π for instance, its real value was only discovered 10 years ago or so despite the fact the idea itself was so old.


What do I think? I think that neither evolution or creationism is right and that more money should be spent researching alternative theories.

Alternative theories? Evolution is so rich in itself that just exploring it will take for ever. Take for instance the DNA, now that we start to understand it and the genome better, we've realized that there is also the peri-genetic material that may explain a part of evolution response to the environment.

So are there part in the evolution body that may change tomorrow? Yes but then again which scientific field doesn't? Do these constant questioning and change prove evolution is flawed? No.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 15:06
There exists a theory that sees the belief in evolution as lacking in one important aspect- the aspect of purpose. Back in the days of Darwin or Copernicus life was thought to be haphazzard. That life could be explained by blind mechanisms. We thought the universe was not created and that man was not created by God. Though life's origins is grounded in religious doctrines, the scientifc world carried the torch of chance and allegiance to only scientific research and theory. Theories existant at a certain age. Then came the discovery of the unexplained connections in the laws of physics. The result of this inquiry led physicists to search for a fundamental constant. Laws such as those found in gravity and electromagnetics were questioned again. Why are those values the way they are? Then came mathematical relations amoung the constants. Forces of binding particles appeared to relate to the number for the age of the universe. Scientists, later noticed that the evolution of the universe needed those precise values and ratios if the universe was capable in providing life. The outcome of thought is that too many variables exist that revolve around the central task of having the universe the way it is. A universe that was made with basic laws conducive to life. There would be no more faith in the concept of a random universe. The 15 billion year old evolving universe was open to a focus that is purposely directed.
 
This is called the Anthropic principle. The value of fundamental constants necessary for things like life. No blind mechanism at work here but a design with purpose. When these scientists speak of evolution they do so on the basis of intent, not natural selection.
 
Previously, the Death of God was equated with evolution at the turn of the 19'th century and has it's proponents to this day. Now, theorists take into consideration the notion of intelligent design especially since the founding of another scientific discovery- the big bang. This is where the universe is thought to have a start date. A beginning. The book of Genesis and the Qu'ran have such notions about a start date. After the theorie of the big bang, scientists would see phycial laws not as by chance or luck but by the guide of a creator.  Gravity, electromagnetism, nuclear forces all follow this law. Without it the universe would be something totally different. The anthropic principle shows that reason and science can hint that, not only can God exist, but that the universe may be following His laws.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 15:26
Nice to Seko agrees that the hand of Odin is stearing the Universe.
 

Evangelical Scientists Refute

Gravity With New 'Intelligent

Falling' Theory

 

KANSAS CITY, KS—As the debate over the teaching of evolution in public schools continues, a new controversy over the science curriculum arose Monday in this embattled Midwestern state. Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning are now asserting that the long-held "theory of gravity" is flawed, and they have responded to it with a new theory of Intelligent Falling.

Enlarge Image Evangelical

Rev. Gabriel Burdett explains Intelligent Falling.

"Things fall not because they are acted upon by some gravitational force, but because a higher intelligence, 'God' if you will, is pushing them down," said Gabriel Burdett, who holds degrees in education, applied Scripture, and physics from Oral Roberts University.

Burdett added: "Gravity—which is taught to our children as a law—is founded on great gaps in understanding. The laws predict the mutual force between all bodies of mass, but they cannot explain that force. Isaac Newton himself said, 'I suspect that my theories may all depend upon a force for which philosophers have searched all of nature in vain.' Of course, he is alluding to a higher power."

Founded in 1987, the ECFR is the world's leading institution of evangelical physics, a branch of physics based on literal interpretation of the Bible.

According to the ECFR paper published simultaneously this week in the International Journal Of Science and the adolescent magazine God's Word For Teens!, there are many phenomena that cannot be explained by secular gravity alone, including such mysteries as how angels fly, how Jesus ascended into Heaven, and how Satan fell when cast out of Paradise.

The ECFR, in conjunction with the Christian Coalition and other Christian conservative action groups, is calling for public-school curriculums to give equal time to the Intelligent Falling theory. They insist they are not asking that the theory of gravity be banned from schools, but only that students be offered both sides of the issue "so they can make an informed decision."

"We just want the best possible education for Kansas' kids," Burdett said.

Proponents of Intelligent Falling assert that the different theories used by secular physicists to explain gravity are not internally consistent. Even critics of Intelligent Falling admit that Einstein's ideas about gravity are mathematically irreconcilable with quantum mechanics. This fact, Intelligent Falling proponents say, proves that gravity is a theory in crisis.

"Let's take a look at the evidence," said ECFR senior fellow Gregory Lunsden."In Matthew 15:14, Jesus says, 'And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.' He says nothing about some gravity making them fall—just that they will fall. Then, in Job 5:7, we read, 'But mankind is born to trouble, as surely as sparks fly upwards.' If gravity is pulling everything down, why do the sparks fly upwards with great surety? This clearly indicates that a conscious intelligence governs all falling."

Critics of Intelligent Falling point out that gravity is a provable law based on empirical observations of natural phenomena. Evangelical physicists, however, insist that there is no conflict between Newton's mathematics and Holy Scripture.

"Closed-minded gravitists cannot find a way to make Einstein's general relativity match up with the subatomic quantum world," said Dr. Ellen Carson, a leading Intelligent Falling expert known for her work with the Kansan Youth Ministry. "They've been trying to do it for the better part of a century now, and despite all their empirical observation and carefully compiled data, they still don't know how."

"Traditional scientists admit that they cannot explain how gravitation is supposed to work," Carson said. "What the gravity-agenda scientists need to realize is that 'gravity waves' and 'gravitons' are just secular words for 'God can do whatever He wants.'"

Some evangelical physicists propose that Intelligent Falling provides an elegant solution to the central problem of modern physics.

"Anti-falling physicists have been theorizing for decades about the 'electromagnetic force,' the 'weak nuclear force,' the 'strong nuclear force,' and so-called 'force of gravity,'" Burdett said. "And they tilt their findings toward trying to unite them into one force. But readers of the Bible have already known for millennia what this one, unified force is: His name is Jesus."



Edited by Paul - 10-Dec-2007 at 15:27
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Originally posted by Paul

Nice to Seko agrees that the hand of Odin is stearing the Universe.
 
Not quite. I do not deny the laws of physics where as the intelligent fall guys do... 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 05:42

Creationism has zero scientific value as it deals with metaphysics.


Metaphysics has scientific value as it explains things based on logical reconstructions from the real world. Or do you think logic has nothing to do with science.


Go to the first farmer specialized in bulls, horses and dogs and he'll tell you all you need to know about evolution, proven by hundreds of years of experience many of which on record.


That isn't evolution that is selective breeding. Tell me the farmer that created a Chicken from a lizard. They only create different types of the same creature not different creatures. And selective breeding if anything shows a weakness of evolution because you can combine different species and create a crossbreed that given enough time will breed true. Look up Savannah cat, an animal that given enough time will breed true, but is made from a housecat and a Serval, if they are separate independent species that shouldn't happen.

There are still discussions going on over whether the evolution happens slowly or quickly, does that disprove the whole theory?


It disproves the standard model that schools have been teaching for decades.


Of course they are not of the same family, but the common feature offer a reasonably good example of evolution at play.


So we should return to Lamarckism?


Once more, does ONE problem proves the whole thing wrong?


It doesn't it's just an example.


Once more, who says, this won't stay an enigma until a brilliant mind finally find the answer in 2817?


Well then it will be solved. Until then don't treat the theory as if it were fact.


Alternative theories? Evolution is so rich in itself that just exploring it will take for ever.


And what if evolution is false? People used to think Phrenology and Astrology were rich disciplines that had a lot to explore, eventually these were found to be false sciences.


Nice to Seko agrees that the hand of Odin is stearing the Universe.


Yeah that's the reason so many comets run into things, I mean the man has no depth perception.


Not quite. I do not deny the laws of physics where as the intelligent fall guys do...


Again though, technically physics is only an approximation of the actual laws in place until we have a Grand Unified Theory to explain the nature of the world.
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