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Forum Locked"Countries" were neither colonized nor colonizer?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 04:34
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Well Ottomans and Persians were not necessarily colonisers however, the Greeks? Romans? Byzantines? surely you can't be serious, there are countless Greek colonies and as for Russia you surely must be joking.

Can you give some examples?
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 07:00

Kırım

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 07:55
Originally posted by barish barish wrote:


It didn't used to exist until hmm... the age of colonization.

It surely existed in antiquity. Greek colonies existed in North Africa, Crimea, Souterh Italy, etc...

Quote
It is done for free basic materials and cheap labour force.

Slavery was very common in antiquity. Barbarians from the colonized territories were taken as slaves. It wasnt simply a cheap labor force, it was for free.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 08:07
Originally posted by barish barish wrote:

The people who were conquered by Ottomans were not second class citizens.


On the contrary, Christians were considered second class subjects in the Ottoman empire. The justice system was heavily titled towards the Muslims, and Christians could hardly ever win cases in courts against Muslims. Also Christians had to pay heavier taxes than Muslims. The Empire never encouraged equality between its subjects, instead it invented this "millet" system of seggregation. By not encouraging integration of the ordinary Christians into the structures of the Empire, the Empire chose to keep them isolated in these different millet units.

The reforms in the Empire that was to finally bring equality between the Christians and Muslims in 1876(?) achieved too little too late  for the empire was already beginning to disintegrate.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 08:24
Originally posted by bg_turk bg_turk wrote:

On the contrary, Christians were considered second class subjects in the Ottoman empire. The justice system was heavily titled towards the Muslims, and Christians could hardly ever win cases in courts against Muslims. Also Christians had to pay heavier taxes than Muslims. The Empire never encouraged equality between its subjects, instead it invented this "millet" system of seggregation. By not encouraging integration of the ordinary Christians into the structures of the Empire, the Empire chose to keep them isolated in these different millet units.

The reforms in the Empire that was to finally bring equality between the Christians and Muslims in 1876(?) achieved too little too late  for the empire was already beginning to disintegrate.
 
Very astute observations. Though discriminatory policies differ in practice and scope, sadly enough they have been a part of every major power at one time or another. Unhappy
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 03:01
Originally posted by bg_turk bg_turk wrote:

On the contrary, Christians were considered second class subjects in the Ottoman empire. The justice system was heavily titled towards the Muslims, and Christians could hardly ever win cases in courts against Muslims. Also Christians had to pay heavier taxes than Muslims. The Empire never encouraged equality between its subjects, instead it invented this "millet" system of seggregation. By not encouraging integration of the ordinary Christians into the structures of the Empire, the Empire chose to keep them isolated in these different millet units.The reforms in the Empire that was to finally bring equality between the Christians and Muslims in 1876(?) achieved too little too late  for the empire was already beginning to disintegrate.

Those are just formalities.

In Istanbul most rich merchants, landowners were either Rum or Jew, while Turks were just farmers or soldiers.

That's definitely different from the British Empire, right?

Plus only distinction was made through religion.

If the conquered person was a muslim, he was considered as an ordinary Ottoman citizen.
    

Edited by barish - 23-Jun-2006 at 03:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 04:29
I am sure not all of non-muslims were merchants, and I  am sure not all muslims were peasant.
 
Compare muslims  peasents, with non-muslim peasents.   I agree with bg, Christians were considered second class subjects in the Ottoman empire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 05:23
Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza wrote:

I agree with bg, Christians were considered second class subjects in the Ottoman empire.

Officially? Yes. Unofficially? I don't think so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 05:26
 
Originally posted by barish barish wrote:


In Istanbul most rich merchants, landowners were either Rum or Jew, while Turks were just farmers or soldiers.

That's definitely different from the British Empire, right?
 
Not so different from the situation in India, where the rich landowners and merchants were mostly Hindus/Muslims/Sikhs/Parsees. Most of the army was also not British, no?


Edited by gcle2003 - 23-Jun-2006 at 05:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 05:44
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Not so different from the situation in India, where the rich landowners and merchants were mostly Hindus/Muslims/Sikhs/Parsees. Most of the army was also not British, no?

I see, and how about London?

That would be a more appropriate comparison.
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 13:49
Originally posted by barish barish wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Not so different from the situation in India, where the rich landowners and merchants were mostly Hindus/Muslims/Sikhs/Parsees. Most of the army was also not British, no?

I see, and how about London?

That would be a more appropriate comparison.
    
 
You mean London as an example of Anglo-Saxon colonisation of Britain? to be honest I don't know enough about the period.
 
The same goes for London as an example of Roman colonisation of Britain. With regard to the Norman colonisation of Britain, I think most rich Saxon merchants and property holders kept their possessions. The Normans weren't terribly into trade.
 
And of course there were quite a few foreign merchants happily plying their business in London at the time, notably from Flanders.
 
Much the same is again true of Beijing after Mongol and Manchu colonisation, no?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 20:44
No, you misunderstood.

Istanbul was the capital of Ottoman Empire. Trade was under the control of the "collonized" people.

And I ask; were there any foreign people who had any type of power in the capital city of British Empire?


    

Edited by barish - 23-Jun-2006 at 20:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 06:10
Originally posted by barish barish wrote:

No, you misunderstood.

Istanbul was the capital of Ottoman Empire. Trade was under the control of the "collonized" people.

And I ask; were there any foreign people who had any type of power in the capital city of British Empire? 

    
 
But the people who you are pointing out had economic power in Istanbul were not foreign. They were native. They therefore compare directly with Saxons under Norman rule, and so on.
 
There were plenty of foreign people (i.e. with origins outside England) who achieved power in London: the Duke of Wellington and Disraeli are obvious examples that stand out in the political field: the Rothschilds stand out in the economic field.
 
How many foreign-origin powerful people in Istanbul compare with those?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 08:24
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

But the people who you are pointing out had economic power in Istanbul were not foreign. They were native.

Not all of them.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

How many foreign-origin powerful people in Istanbul compare with those?

Countless. There were generals, bureaucrats, merchants, religious leaders...

Racially, even emperors were not Turkic.
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 09:39
Originally posted by barish barish wrote:


Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

How many foreign-origin powerful people in Istanbul compare with those?

Countless. There were generals, bureaucrats, merchants, religious leaders...
Where did they come from?
 
Quote

Racially, even emperors were not Turkic.
    
 
That's new to me, but I wouldn't claim to know. I always assumed the Ottoman Emperors were Ottomans. Why did they call themselves Ottomans? Or didn't they - is it just what foreigners called them?
 
How much of, say, Edward VII's heritage do you think was English or British?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 12:32
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Where did they come from?

From the conquered provinces of the empire.

Some of them may have been natives of Istanbul as you said though.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

That's new to me, but I wouldn't claim to know. I always assumed the Ottoman Emperors were Ottomans. Why did they call themselves Ottomans? Or didn't they - is it just what foreigners called them?

"Ottoman" comes from Osman, the founder of the empire.

It was the name of the ruling family, which became a religious identity later on.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

How much of, say, Edward VII's heritage do you think was English or British?

I am not sure. He may not be pure blood English.

But when compared to Ottoman rulers, I don't think he is that "mixed".
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 06:49
Originally posted by gcle2003 alt=Originally posted by barish<BR>[QUOTE=gcle2003 style=vertical-align: text-bottom; /> <strong>barish<BR>[QUOTE=gcle2003 wrote:</strong><br /><br />How much of, say, Edward VII's heritage do you think was English or British?</td></tr></table> <BR>I am not sure. He may not be pure blood English. <BR><BR>But when compared to Ottoman rulers, I don't think he is that mixed. <BR>    [/QUOTE gcle2003 alt=Originally posted by barish
[QUOTE=gcle2003 style=vertical-align: text-bottom; /> barish
[QUOTE=gcle2003 wrote:


How much of, say, Edward VII's heritage do you think was English or British?

I am not sure. He may not be pure blood English.

But when compared to Ottoman rulers, I don't think he is that mixed.
    [/QUOTE wrote:

 
If you take his sixty-two ancestors up to his great-great-great-grandparents only three were born in Britain.
 
If you take his sixty-two ancestors up to his great-great-great-grandparents only three were born in Britain.
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Well, that may be so, but this situation is rather irrelevant, isn't it?

I mean since Britain didn't conquer his homeland, it doesn't matter if he is of German origin or something like that.

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Afghanistan, never a colony, nor colonized any country.
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Wasn't Bahrein like a colony of Iran? and isn't Abu musa still a colony?
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