History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum Lockedcould the nazis have invaded England?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
Guess View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 01-Apr-2007
Status: Offline
Points: 141
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guess Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: could the nazis have invaded England?
    Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 00:38
If Hitler did not change strategies and attack cities and continued to hit military targets, could the Germans have been able to invade Britain?

Could the British navy have stopped the invasion?
Would the Germany air force be able to hold off the British navy?
Did the British navy have any large air craft carriers like the Americans and Japanese?
Would the British have used poison gas to defend their island?
Would the Soviets have attacked the Germans while they were bogged down in Britan?
Back to Top
Julius Augustus View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 20-Mar-2008
Location: Tajikistan
Status: Offline
Points: 274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 00:50
Depends, I think Stalin would have kept the Treaty with Germany concerning borders and not attack because it would have been costly for him during this time, it was only when Germany attacked Russia did the USSR retaliated. If Hitler would have focused westward, I think things might have been different. 
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph

Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 2963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 01:21
The German Army had little or no experience with large scale amphibious operations.  Some contend that the operation would have been a disaster no matter the conditions or having control of the air.  Consider the effort that went into the Normandy landings.  The secondary support ships alone numbered more than the entire German navy.
 
 
Back to Top
Darius of Parsa View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 03-Oct-2007
Status: Offline
Points: 589
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 01:23

I know little about the World War II era, but with the information that I have seen, the German war machine could have annexed the island known as Britain. The problems came for the Germans when Hitler attacked Russia. I agree with Julius, if Hitler aimed at attacking Britian instead of world wide domination, the outcome would be much the opposite.

What is the officer problem?
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Status: Offline
Points: 965
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 01:35
Could the British navy have stopped the invasion?
Britain did, it's called the Battle of Britain.

Would the Germany air force be able to hold off the British navy?
First it would have had to destroy the RAF, but it lost to them. Hence the Battle of Britain.

Did the British navy have any large air craft carriers like the Americans and Japanese?        Loads, but sea based aircraft were unecessary so close to land.

Would the British have used poison gas to defend their island?
It's possbile. It wasn't particularly effective in WWI.
 
Would the Soviets have attacked the Germans while they were bogged down in Britan?       It was impossible for the Germans to get to Britain, they lost the battle of Britain. However the Soviets were building up to attack Germany but would have liked to wait a few years. Each month that went by Soviet production was catching German up. The germans knew this so started an early war.
 
 


Edited by Paul - 05-Apr-2008 at 01:36
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4232
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 01:38
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa Darius of Parsa wrote:

I know little about the World War II era, but with the information that I have seen, the German war machine could have annexed the island known as Britain. The problems came for the Germans when Hitler attacked Russia. I agree with Julius, if Hitler aimed at attacking Britian instead of world wide domination, the outcome would be much the opposite.

 
red clay said it well.  The Germans had neither the resources, the naval assets nor the experience to pull off Operation Sea Lion.
 
My thought has always been that Germany lost the war when she attacked Soviet Russia.  Others have made the argument that she lost the instant she left an undefeated world empire at her rear, supported by the resources of the Americas. 
 
When you consider the pluses and minuses, Germany's moves, against opponents with far greater resources than Germany could ever match, amounted to suicide.  Germany was doomed from the beginning.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 05-Apr-2008 at 01:39
Back to Top
Guess View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 01-Apr-2007
Status: Offline
Points: 141
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guess Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 02:13
the germans lost the battle of britain in large part because they changed strategies and attacked civilian targets farther from the continent. didn't the germans have the british down to 100 serviceiable aircraft before they changed strategies?

what if the germans didn't change strategies.
Back to Top
kafkas View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 117
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 04:37
Also the Luftwaffe didn't have radar at the time I believe while the RAF did...Well like someone else said before, Operation Sea Lion failed, and even if they managed to finish the RAF they'd still have to deal with the British Navy. 
Back to Top
Illirac View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Jun-2007
Location: Ma vlast
Status: Offline
Points: 526
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 10:58
Originally posted by Guess Guess wrote:

If Hitler did not change strategies and attack cities and continued to hit military targets, could the Germans have been able to invade Britain?

No, the British were planning an invasion and they were prepared for it.

Originally posted by Guess Guess wrote:


Could the British navy have stopped the invasion?

Well, if 16 aircrafts brought down the Prince of Wales,




For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 12:13
Originally posted by Guess Guess wrote:

the germans lost the battle of britain in large part because they changed strategies and attacked civilian targets farther from the continent.
Southampton, Plymouth and London are further from the Continent?  The Germans switched strategies because they were being so heavily defeated in daytime raids. The Battle of Britain was already over by then.
Quote
didn't the germans have the british down to 100 serviceiable aircraft before they changed strategies?
No, not at all. Britain was outproducing Germany with aircraft since the beginning: 8,000 in 1939, 15,000 in 1940 and 20,000 in 1941, against Germany's 8,000, 11,000 and 12,000 respectively. Moreover US companies like Lockheed and Curtis were already producing aircraft for the RAF before the war started.
 
Not only that, Britain was not losing as many pilots as the Luftwaffe was, since they were parachuting or crash landing on home soil. They could fly again, whereas Luftwaffe pilots were gone for the duration even if they lived through the crash.
Quote
what if the germans didn't change strategies.
They'd have gone on being hammered into oblivion.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
longshanks31 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Jul-2007
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 572
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 16:29
germany had no real chance in either direction, an invasion would have been a distaster for them, and going to russia we know about.
There best best would have been consolodating what they had and defending it until the british lost interest, afterall in spite of the navy we had, we couldnt have liberated europe on our own, merely defend our own borders.
They overstretch themselves, russia and the british empire were too big a task.
long live the king of bhutan
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 8795
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 17:15
The problem Britain had wasn't with aircraft numbers or production; there was simply a shortage of pilots to fly them.
Back to Top
Illirac View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Jun-2007
Location: Ma vlast
Status: Offline
Points: 526
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 17:17
Originally posted by longshanks31 longshanks31 wrote:

germany had no real chance in either direction, an invasion would have been a distaster for them, 


They had a chance: increase the number of U-boats so that the supplies and convoys from the USA would be brought down. More aircrafts.
The Germans had time to wait, the whole north see was in range of their bombers. No major treat in Europe except the USSR, but they would have not attacked (pact of non-aggression). Some more V1, V2 and the whole Britain would be Coventrated.
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
Back to Top
Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Lion of Babylon

Joined: 17-Apr-2005
Location: Iraq
Status: Offline
Points: 1108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 19:42

it is hard to give answer because after dunkirk evacuation many things happened,all the resources mentioned that the Germans forces were nearest to the dunkirk than the British forces they were easily could cut off the retreating line of the Britishs but they didn't, a ristrict orders came from hitler, the message was clear from the whermacht keep your position don't occupy dunkirk and do scout operation only.
if the German destroy the british expedition forces they maybe conquer the Island(maybe).
Britain will be defeceless the morale is very low due to the defeat and the surrender of the whole british forces as well as the using of the german airborne forces instead of consuming it at arnhim in holland with no reasoable cause only the marshes.
so the full attack by small boats,luftwaffe,airborne and a full scale attack(suicidal) from the German navy to reduce the pressure on the other forces,maybe it could be happened as well as another scenario in dunkirk.
but hitler let the british retreated in Dunkirk and postponded lion sea operation many times for political reasons cause he want to make peace with GB not to crush it,but he made one of his first mistakes in the war.
so who was expecting that the Germn will cross the ardine and crush France so easily.
answer no one  even the german so I mentiond maybe above it just theories.

 


 

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
Back to Top
Illirac View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Jun-2007
Location: Ma vlast
Status: Offline
Points: 526
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 20:11
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter Ahmed The Fighter wrote:

 he want to make peace with GB not to crush it



Yes, that was the main reason why actually they did not pushed forward.
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
Back to Top
longshanks31 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Jul-2007
Location: Great Britain
Status: Offline
Points: 572
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 20:33
Originally posted by Illirac Illirac wrote:

Originally posted by longshanks31 longshanks31 wrote:

germany had no real chance in either direction, an invasion would have been a distaster for them, 


They had a chance: increase the number of U-boats so that the supplies and convoys from the USA would be brought down. More aircrafts.
The Germans had time to wait, the whole north see was in range of their bombers. No major treat in Europe except the USSR, but they would have not attacked (pact of non-aggression). Some more V1, V2 and the whole Britain would be Coventrated.
 
The germans had nowhere near the right types and quantities of kit to do the job of invading britain, if the english hadnt been there, the story would be very different, but as it is the channel is worth a million men to us in terms of defence.
 
The most likely result if germany had left russia alone, would have been stalemate with britain, germany wouldnt have been able to invade us, and an invasion of europe was beyond us.
Operation sealion was abandoned for very good reasons, in many ways the war might have been won for the allies quicker if the germans had tried to invade, a chance for britain to inflict serious equiptment loss on the invader.
 
Gas was going to be used, it was in the plans anyway.
But i dont think that would make much difference, gas is not very efficient, in terms of an attempted operation sealion, i think it would have had limited use.
long live the king of bhutan
Back to Top
deadkenny View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Status: Offline
Points: 994
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 20:35
I believe there was another thread more or less on this topic.  In any case, IMHO by the time the Germans 'switched' targets in their air attacks it was already too late for the Germans to successfully invade.  The weather was worsening and the British had already had time to re-equip the forces evacuated from Dunkirk (sans their equipment) and prepare their defenses.  The potential loss of the BEF (if Guderian had been allowed to 'cut off' the BEF from Dunkirk) might have opened a 'window of opportunity' for the Germans.  One should appreciate that the total forces (on both sides) in an invasion of Britain in 1940 would have been much smaller than D-Day.  The Germans would have been (relatively) much more dependant upon air lifted forces and supplies than the Allies were with the D-Day landings.  In any case, the real point of vulnerability of the British was July (according to the British themselves, and presumably they knew).  The Germans weren't even attacking in earnest until August.  By Sept., the window of opportunity was pretty well closed.  The switch of targets was effectively a recognition of that reality, and simply represented a last shot at 'terror bombing' Britain into quitting the war.
 
If one wishes to construct a scenario where the Germans have a realistic chance at successfully landing in Britain, it would probably have to involve Guderian 'catching' most or all of the BEF at Dunkirk.  Then the Germans would have had to start preparations (e.g. conversion of river barges to landing craft) much earlier, i.e. in May.  The aerial portion of the Battle of Britain needed to start by the end of June (following the 'surrender' of France) or early July at the latest, with the landings themselves occurring in July.  The objective of the Luftwaffe needed to be to render the RAF Fighter command temporarily incapable of intervening effectively against the landings, not to 'destroy' the RAF completely (an unrealistic objective, given the 'depth' of Fighter command).  Of course the RN would attempt to intervene to defeat the invasion.  The Germans would have had to use a combination of minefields and divebombing to fend off the RN.  It would have been a tough fight, with heavy losses and the outcome far from certain for either side.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
Back to Top
Illirac View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Jun-2007
Location: Ma vlast
Status: Offline
Points: 526
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 20:59
Originally posted by longshanks31 longshanks31 wrote:

 The most likely result if germany had left russia alone, would have been stalemate with britain,
 

I don't think so, if they had left Russia alone and continued to attack and bomb, Britain would probably be defeated. Yes, war are not win by bombing, but they could prepare for a full scale invasion.
Originally posted by longshanks31 longshanks31 wrote:


 germany wouldnt have been able to invade us,

With time they would, Britain was surrounded by Germans: France, Norway, and the U-boats where every where.

Originally posted by longshanks31 longshanks31 wrote:


Operation sealion was abandoned for very good reasons,

The reason was: Hitler wanted to conquer all the territory up to the Ural mountain so that he may endure a longer war. And the other reason was that (as ahmed already wrote) he did not wanted to destroy the English.
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
Back to Top
Illirac View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Jun-2007
Location: Ma vlast
Status: Offline
Points: 526
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 21:00
But then, the weather saved them from the invasion as it was getting worse. 

Edited by Illirac - 05-Apr-2008 at 21:01
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Status: Offline
Points: 965
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 22:01
Originally posted by deadkenny deadkenny wrote:

I believe there was another thread more or less on this topic.  In any case, IMHO by the time the Germans 'switched' targets in their air attacks it was already too late for the Germans to successfully invade.  The weather was worsening and the British had already had time to re-equip the forces evacuated from Dunkirk (sans their equipment) and prepare their defenses.  The potential loss of the BEF (if Guderian had been allowed to 'cut off' the BEF from Dunkirk) might have opened a 'window of opportunity' for the Germans.  One should appreciate that the total forces (on both sides) in an invasion of Britain in 1940 would have been much smaller than D-Day.  The Germans would have been (relatively) much more dependant upon air lifted forces and supplies than the Allies were with the D-Day landings.  In any case, the real point of vulnerability of the British was July (according to the British themselves, and presumably they knew).  The Germans weren't even attacking in earnest until August.  By Sept., the window of opportunity was pretty well closed.  The switch of targets was effectively a recognition of that reality, and simply represented a last shot at 'terror bombing' Britain into quitting the war.
 
If one wishes to construct a scenario where the Germans have a realistic chance at successfully landing in Britain, it would probably have to involve Guderian 'catching' most or all of the BEF at Dunkirk.  Then the Germans would have had to start preparations (e.g. conversion of river barges to landing craft) much earlier, i.e. in May.  The aerial portion of the Battle of Britain needed to start by the end of June (following the 'surrender' of France) or early July at the latest, with the landings themselves occurring in July.  The objective of the Luftwaffe needed to be to render the RAF Fighter command temporarily incapable of intervening effectively against the landings, not to 'destroy' the RAF completely (an unrealistic objective, given the 'depth' of Fighter command).  Of course the RN would attempt to intervene to defeat the invasion.  The Germans would have had to use a combination of minefields and divebombing to fend off the RN.  It would have been a tough fight, with heavy losses and the outcome far from certain for either side.
 
One of the reasons for the delay was the higher than predicted damage done by the Luftwaffe by the French. Add this to the unexpected damage done over Dunkirk, the Luftwaffe had to recuperate, this was part of the reason for the delay. If Guderian had gone for Dunkirk the Huricanes would have inflicted an awful lot more damage on the Luftwaffe. Could an early channel crossing even been thinkable after that.
 
 
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.070 seconds.