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Forum LockedCould the Me 262 have won the ww2?

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    Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 12:23
The development of an jet fighter was already started in Germany around 1932, but wasn't ever considered a necessity to win a future war. But as the war evolved, the Germans were suddenly facing a lot of bombers over Germany. They needed to win back the air domination or else they would lose the war.
After a lot of struggle the Messerschmitt Me 262 took of from and airbase in Leipheim, it outranked the spitfire by flying almost 300 km/h faster.
But after a series of attacks on Germany, Hitler decided that the Me 262 was to be a bomber, instead of a fighter. This decission doomed the Me 262, because it got slower and heavier.

What do think would have happend if Hitler hadn't ruined this next-generation for the Germans?
Perhaps they had taken back the airdomination, which during the ww2, had meant serious shit for the allies?
What do you think?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 16:15
Originally posted by Etnad Etnad wrote:


What do think would have happend if Hitler hadn't ruined this next-generation for the Germans? 
 
Several hundred more bombers would have been lost, but the ME-262 was not going to win the war. The allies had enough of a numerical advantage to saturate ME 262 airfields with high performance Mustangs and Spitfires. This tactic caught the jets while landing (their most vulnerable period)
 
Also, the German jets, though impressive and noteworthy, did not put the allies into a state of "Shock and Awe".  The allies were working on their own jet programs and high performace piston fighters were able to occasionally engage and shootdown the ME-262s (usually with a high numerical advantage and / or the ME 262 being vulnerable).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 16:50
Hello to you all
 
The war was won on the eastern front not in the west. Me262 was useless against the 25k+ tanks massed on the German borders from the east and as Cryptic said, the crushing number of allied fighters (some 50k+) was enough to make them useless on the western front.
 
Germany's real problem  always was logistics. They simply didn't produce enough weapons. Russians already had 20k tanks before the war and made 55k tanks during it. The US made 61k and even Britain outproduced Germany in weaponry. Yet one can only be amazed on how much the Germans achieved with such little resources. Never the Germans had more than 4500 tanks on one front yet they achieved massive victories which only proves that the wehrmacht was the best fighting force in WWII.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 18:07
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello to you all
 
The war was won on the eastern front not in the west. Me262 was useless against the 25k+ tanks massed on the German borders from the east and as Cryptic said, the crushing number of allied fighters (some 50k+) was enough to make them useless on the western front.
 
Germany's real problem  always was logistics. They simply didn't produce enough weapons. Russians already had 20k tanks before the war and made 55k tanks during it. The US made 61k and even Britain outproduced Germany in weaponry. Yet one can only be amazed on how much the Germans achieved with such little resources. Never the Germans had more than 4500 tanks on one front yet they achieved massive victories which only proves that the wehrmacht was the best fighting force in WWII.
 
Al-Jassas
 
The war was won on all fronts.
 
It was the Allied bomber offensive in the west that drew off most of the Luftwaffes fighter strength and flak to defend the German heartland. It was massive amounts of supplies from America and Britain that allowed the Soviets to survive the Germans occupying most of the productive agricultural land and industrial centers of the U.S.S.R. By the end of the war 75% of the transport vehicles in the Red Army were American made running on the 4 million tires sent from the U.S. The 1,900 locomotives and 11,000 thousand railcars from the U.S. also keep troops and materials on the move and the almost 100,000 U.S. made radios allowed Soviet forces to communicate.
 
 From 1942 on it was the growing Allied offensives in the west that began to draw off progressively more and more German divisions.
 
As for the ME-262 it was its poor engines that restricted its combat effectiveness more than Hitlers choice to produce a bomber version. Early jet engines on all sides were prone to flameout and fire. This combined with poor acceleration made them death-traps in the wrong situation.


Edited by DukeC - 09-Jun-2009 at 18:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 18:37
The bombing campaign only became effective in 44 and after, before that it was just a waist of men, planes and resources in addition to plain mass musrder.
 
Let us take the oil field at Ploiesti. The bombing there began in 1940 from fields in Greece. Resumed by the Americans in 42 it achieved nothing. The fields pumped as much oil as ever. In 43 bases in Italy began to bomb the fields and again the effect was little. Only in late Spring 1944 when three gigantic waves of bomber fleets each of more than 1000 bombers did the distruction of Ploiesti was completed in June or July. Less than a week after the Red army took the city almost without contest. So sooner or later the city would have fallen any way without the American effort.
 
Same goes to the rest of bombing campaigns. Russia lost 11 million men in the east and had 20 million others under arms. How many did the allies field?
 
If there was a weapon that could have achieved anything for the Germans it would have been type XXI U-boat. The best U-boat ever and yet the germans decided for no reason not to mass produce it.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 19:05
After December 1941 nothing could have won the war for Germany. After June 1941 only the unlikely event of the US joining in on their side could have won the war for Germany.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 20:12
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

If there was a weapon that could have achieved anything for the Germans it would have been type XXI U-boat. The best U-boat ever and yet the germans decided for no reason not to mass produce it.
The XXI was good, but American submarine officers and technicians examined captured XXIs and found them to be a mix of excellent potential due to advanced features (automatic torpedoe loading, speed, battery endurace) and increasingly hasty construction.
 
For example, the hydralic lines (of which there were many due to the boats advanced features) were placed outside the pressure hull. This led to corrosion, easy battle damage etc.  Also, the overall build quality of the captured submarines was noticably poor due to allied bombings forcing the sections of the boats to be constructed at many different locations, transported and then assembled by increasingly inexperienced workers.


Edited by Cryptic - 08-Jun-2009 at 22:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Etnad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 20:52
Yes indeed the war was won on all fronts? But couldn't the Me 262 have caused a lot of serious damage on the eastern front considering the Sovjets bad airforce and anti-air batteries?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 22:57

^

I do not think so. The ME-262s strongest role was bomber intercepter. It could not carry enough bombs or rockets for ground attack.  In addition, the ME-262 needed established airfields with a lot of technical support. Eastern Front airfields were usually very primitive. Though the Soviets did not have advanced Mustangs or Spitfires, the best use of the ME-262 was still on the western front against heavy bombers.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Etnad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 23:02
Hitler demanded that the Me 262s where rebuild so they could carry a bombload. Thats where the Me 262 lost its advantage.
I guess you are right, it was more usefull on the western front against the flying fortress.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 05:53

Hello to you all

Type XXI was ready for production before the war even started if I am not mistaken. Yet the Germans preferred type VII. Only in 1943 when drive by desperation did the germans began the hasty assembly of that submarine and by this time it was too late.

As for the Me262, the plane was potent enough. Every body dreaded it even the feared Mustangs. Yet it was shear numbers and lack of expert pilots that made them useless. Had they entered service when they were ready in late1943 or early 1944 I seriously doubt Normandy would have ever taken place. Yet it entered service after Normandy and by this time everything was in peril. Many planes were distroyed before even flying, hasty construction lead to disastorous error.
 
Jet planes need more than just production, they need damn good pilots and these were a very precious commodity in an ever shrinking Luftwaffe.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Etnad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 12:58
So you think, if the Me262's were deployed in late 1943, the invasion of normandy would never have happend? What fallout would that have meant for the war, now that the Germans can focus on the eastern front and the suthern front
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 13:32

Normandy was successful because it was simply not contested from the air. Only 1 or two planes ever showed, the rest of the fleet dedicated to the fight, some 1200 planes, was distroyed in the events leading up to Normandy. Remember the entire resources of the bomber command and the 8th fleet were used to flatten any possibile opposition before the landings took place and the Mustangs were the decisive weapon in making this happen.

With the Me262 in service before 44 thing might have changed. Normandy would either be a disaster or a very bloody affair. But in all cases the allies would have found an alternative route for them to the heart of Germany. Remember the same day the landings took place Rome fell and Germany was much closer from Rome than from France.

In all cases Germany would have lost the war eventually. It won't be in May 45 but probably Autumn or Winter 45/46.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheRedBaron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 15:24
And all of this fails to take into account Germany's lack of fuel... Not to mention trained pilots.
 
Can build all the planes you like, but without fuel to get them in the air it means little and with no trained pilots... They are just a waste of resources.
 
By 1944, German Pilot Training was so severely curtailed by fuel restrictions that new pilots had only a few hours flying time before beginning operational sorties and these too were limited by fuel.
 
Given the extra training needed for the ME262, that Galland said was a 'bitch to fly', and its propensity to burn fuel at a high rate, adding them sooner would have absolutely zero effect.
 
All the wonder weapons rely on the basics of fuel and men to power them... To make Germany stand any chance you need to find it a good fuel source that is easy to get and easy to protect. The Germans had plenty of planes in 1945, just no pilots and fuel for them.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 18:14
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

The bombing campaign only became effective in 44 and after, before that it was just a waist of men, planes and resources in addition to plain mass musrder.
 
It forced the redeployment of German forces long before 1944 that did have a significant strategic effect. All those fighters standing guard on German soil weren't available to oppose the Soviets in the east and the same for the 1,000,000 or so men and their flak guns that eventually defended Germany. Due to the nature of the Allied bomber offensive they were needed around every major city. 
 
I think modern war itself can be described as mass murder, and being a civilian in Germany in WW II wasn't the same as being innocent.
 


Edited by DukeC - 09-Jun-2009 at 18:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 08:45

Hello to you all

Those manning anti-aircraft positions were 2nd rate troops not fit for frontline service or understrengthed divisions.
 
Also, the effect the luftwaffe on the eastern front would not be that signifigant. Already most of their resources were on the eastern front but the Russians had more than 3 times as much planes as the germans and produced on average almost 2 times the german total production.
 
As for lack of fuel, it only began to affect German war effort seriously in early 44 when Ploiesti began to be systematically bombed. By then most of Germany's oil was produced from synthetic plants that were located deep in germany and weren't fully distroyed untill the spring of 45.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheRedBaron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 13:31
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

 
As for lack of fuel, it only began to affect German war effort seriously in early 44 when Ploiesti began to be systematically bombed. By then most of Germany's oil was produced from synthetic plants that were located deep in germany and weren't fully distroyed untill the spring of 45.
 
Al-Jassas
 
Er... No. Most of Germany's oil was NOT synthetic.
 
Germany had only one Tetra Ethyl lead plant which was vital for producing high octane aircraft fuel.
 
The share of synthetic oil in total oil supply went up to 50% in 1944 from 20% in 1939. This peak, then dropped dramatically due to an Allied bombing offensive that specifically targetted these plants.
Field Marshal Erhard Milch stated “The hydrogenation plants are our most vulnerable spots; with them stands and falls our entire ability to wage war. Not only will planes no longer fly, but tanks and submarines also will stop running if the hydrogenation plants should actually be attacked.”
 
By July 1944 every major plant had been hit. These plants were producing an average of 316,000 tons per month when the attacks began. Their production fell to 107,000 tons in June and 17,000 tons in September. Output of aviation gasoline from synthetic plants dropped from 175,000 tons in April to 30,000 tons in July and 5,000 tons in September. Production recovered somewhat in November and December, but for the rest of the war was but a fraction of pre-attack output.
Leuna was the largest of the synthetic plants. From the first attack to the end, production at Leuna averaged 9 percent of capacity. To win the battle with Leuna a total of 6,552 bomber sorties were flown against the plant, 18,328 tons of bombs were dropped and an entire year was required.
 
Christian Schneider, manager of Leuna Works, one of Germany's largest synthetic gasoline and oil plants said with regards to production, "Up until a week ago (middle of April 1945), the Leuna plant was still operating, turning out a pitifully thin trickle of fuel. The output was so small compared with its capacity potential that production officials had difficulty plotting it on a chart."
 
For lack of fuel, pilot training, previously cut down, was further curtailed. Through the summer, the movement of German Panzer Divisions in the field was hampered more and more seriously as a result of losses in combat and mounting transportation difficulties, together with the fall in fuel production. When the Germans launched their counter-offensive on December 16, 1944, their reserves of fuel were insufficient to support the operation. Many panzer units were lost when they ran out of gasoline. In February and March of 1945 the Germans massed 1,200 tanks on the Baranov bridgehead at the Vistula to check the Russians. They were immobilized for lack of gasoline and overrun.

Generaleutnant Adolf Galland commented "In my opinion, it was the Allied bombing of our oil industries that had the greatest effect on the German war potential. Even our supplies for training new airmen were severely curtailed--we had plenty of planes from the autumn of 1944 on, and there were enough pilots up to the end of that year, but lack of petrol didn't permit the expansion of proper training to the air force as a whole."
Hermann Goering, long-time chief of the Luftwaffe, made the following remarks during the course of several interrogations, "Allied attacks greatly affected our training program, too. For instance, the attacks on oil retarded the training because our new pilots couldn't get sufficient training before they were put into the air.”
 
Perhaps the most important comment, for this topic is this by Goering...
 
"If I had to design the Luftwaffe again, the first airplane I would develop would be the jet fighter, then the jet bomber. It is now a question of fuel. The jet fighter takes too much."

The attacks on synthetic oil product reduced its already small contribution to the German war effort -
 
"Production from the synthetic plants declined steadily and by July 1944 every major plant had been hit. These plants were producing an average of 316,000 tons per month when the attacks began. Their production fell to 107,000 tons in June and 17,000 tons in September. Output of aviation gasoline from synthetic plants dropped from 175,000 tons in April to 30,000 tons in July and 5,000 tons in September. Production recovered somewhat in November and December, but for the rest of the war was but a fraction of pre-attack output. "
 
Put simply, Germany lost the war due to lack of oil. General Feldmarschall Karl Gerd von Rundstedt stated that of three major factors in the German defeat, the lack of oil was the most important.


Edited by TheRedBaron - 10-Jun-2009 at 13:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 17:10
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello to you all

Those manning anti-aircraft positions were 2nd rate troops not fit for frontline service or understrengthed divisions.
 
They were still effective in the air defence role and not available for other duties. 
 
Quote Also, the effect the luftwaffe on the eastern front would not be that signifigant. Already most of their resources were on the eastern front but the Russians had more than 3 times as much planes as the germans and produced on average almost 2 times the german total production.
 
I find that hard to believe given the amount of damage done to the Allied airforces in the west. Experten like Erich Hartmann(352 kills)  and others equaled the quantitative advantage the Soviets had but most were needed to defend German cities.
 


Edited by DukeC - 10-Jun-2009 at 17:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 17:27
Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

I find that hard to believe given the amount of damage done to the Allied airforces in the west. Experten like Erich Hartmann(352 kills)  and others equaled the quantitative advantage the Soviets had but most were needed to defend German cities. 
I wonder how many of those 352 claimed kills by Hartmann and other high scoring aces are German propaganda exaggerations.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 17:53
Originally posted by Cryptic Cryptic wrote:

I wonder how many of those 352 claimed kills by Hartmann and other high scoring aces are German propaganda exaggerations.    
 
I don't know, it's very hard to determine pilot claims in combat situations, but I think the Germans did as well as anyone. They didn't rotate their pilots out of combat like some of the Allies so men like Hartmann served until the war ended or they were wounded or killed which allowed the huge toll some took.
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