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Forum LockedConfronting Militant Atheism

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Brian J Checco View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 20:22
Cezar, what yo and I find frightening are similar. If any one function of government should be non-denominational, it is the military. While faith-based initiatives in domestic policies can be a very good thing (charity is a universal to almost every religion), the military should not follow any religious agenda. First of all, the military has the greatest potential to do harm and the least potential to do good (from an objective philosophical standpoint), and it's motives should be secular to represent the needs and objectives of a secular government (which we purportedly have). When the military turns to religious objectives, be they Christian, "Mussulman" (wtf?), Jewish, etc. things get very convoluted. The aims and goals of US foreign policy should not be driven by religious agendas, and nor should their mightiest implement- the military- be a tool of these agendas.
That said, a secular organization doesn't mean that it must be atheist or agnostic ( a distinction many evangelicals fail to realize), but rather, constituted of people who practice whatever the choose, but who follow a secular agenda. Like I pointed out earlier, it's also scary that this Holgroth fellow used to work at the Dept. of Defense, and had some measure of influence over US Foreign policy decisions. Even worse is when you get an Evangelical in the White House... Crusades, anyone?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 08:48
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

I'm not concened about atheism, since I see it as less harmful.
 
Well you would, wouldn't you? LOL
Would what?
Quote
 
Quote Evene the most radical atheist can't rise a fanatic fervour in his/her disciples.
 
False.
True.
Quote  
 
Quote Do these organizations exist? If so, how? Their relation with the military is extremely dangerous, in my opinion.
 
True.
What's true?
Quote
 
Quote One of these my decide that destroying the mosque in Mecca will serve as a good lesson for the heathen.
 
False.
Possible, maybe not very probable.
Quote
 
Quote
The fact that policticians use the military is bad enough, is there any need for the religious driven nutheads to be allowed to interfere? 
 
A valid point.
 
-Akolouthos
[/QUOTE]
Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 08:57
A side note Brian: in Romanian Muslim=Mussulman. Therefore, more than 20 million people are using "Mussulman". Did Holgroth spend some time in our country? If he likes our country he is welcome. We already have quite a collection of ding-ding public figures but we don't mind diversity. Anyway, he really would became quite harmless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 15:24

Most likey came from the Ottomans. Moslem Turks today call themselves Musluman. 

Copyright 2004 Seko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 21:26
The Marxist regimes in China, Viet Nam, Tibet are very militant towards people of faith; Christiams, Jews, Budhist etc.
This is the extreme some would carry into in the west (North American-Europe), if they could. It is like in the former USSR where they would send Christians to mental hospitals for their faith, do not think it could not happen in the west.




proof if you do not believe what these millitant communist athiest are doing.

Someone can believe or not believe in a God, goddess, gods if they want, free will!!

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php

Edited by eaglecap - 11-Jan-2008 at 21:29
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 02:27
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

A side note Brian: in Romanian Muslim=Mussulman. Therefore, more than 20 million people are using "Mussulman". Did Holgroth spend some time in our country? If he likes our country he is welcome. We already have quite a collection of ding-ding public figures but we don't mind diversity. Anyway, he really would became quite harmless.


I highly doubt ol' Diamond Jack speaks Romanian. In English, "Musulman" is an antiquated term, having gone out of favor around 50 years ago; it carries with it pejorative connotations. Jacko isn't a Romanian, he's just an old fashioned bigot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 02:48
Originally posted by Brian J Checco Brian J Checco wrote:

Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

A side note Brian: in Romanian Muslim=Mussulman. Therefore, more than 20 million people are using "Mussulman". Did Holgroth spend some time in our country? If he likes our country he is welcome. We already have quite a collection of ding-ding public figures but we don't mind diversity. Anyway, he really would became quite harmless.


I highly doubt ol' Diamond Jack speaks Romanian. In English, "Musulman" is an antiquated term, having gone out of favor around 50 years ago; it carries with it pejorative connotations. Jacko isn't a Romanian, he's just an old fashioned bigot.
 
I concur. He likely ran across the term in some polemic he skimmed, and decided to adopt it into his vocabulary; a man of his character would have a need of as many hateful terms as possible.
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 04:31
Nice response Brian LOL. After reading this article of his... I am confused, who does he not have a problem with Ouch.? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 04:33
Originally posted by Brian J Checco Brian J Checco wrote:

Again; sad part- Fellow was one of the Game Theoreticians who worked for the Department of Defense... this isn't scary to anyone else?


Maybe God whispered his name as a possible appointment to Bush one of the times our dear President mentioned that he "spoke: to God Confused

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 04:41
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Most likey came from the Ottomans. Moslem Turks today call themselves Musluman. 



I thought it was more like "Musliman." That is the case in Bosnia, and Turks that I know.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 06:51
Well, after reading this i'm thoroughly dissapointed. I am a Christian myself and I know that many of my own faith are like this and it does sicken me, I hope that none of you draw the conclusion that we are all like this, and i'm sure you havent. As said in the book of Proverbs by the Bible itself, "It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way." (Proverbs 19:2 NIV)
 
I believe this is an example of a man who was too hasty in his zeal and missed the way Tongue
Einstein said, "God does not play dice." He was right. God plays Scrabble. - Philip Gold
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 11:22
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

The Marxist regimes in China, Viet Nam, Tibet are very militant towards people of faith; Christiams, Jews, Budhist etc.
This is the extreme some would carry into in the west (North American-Europe), if they could. It is like in the former USSR where they would send Christians to mental hospitals for their faith, do not think it could not happen in the west.

proof if you do not believe what these millitant communist athiest are doing.

Someone can believe or not believe in a God, goddess, gods if they want, free will!!
The persecution of the faithful in the socialist regimes is exagerated. Romania was such a country and I'm getting sick of the way the Church victimizes itself. The Romanian Orthodox Church is a state institution now and it was then too. The Constitution of the Socialist Republic of Romania granted freedom of religion. What in fact was happeninig was that the PCR (Romanian Communis Party) was doing what every communist party did: denying the possibility of people to build up an organization capable to contest it's power. There have been pesrecutions against the faithful, off course, but everyone was under the ever watching  eye of the party.
Religion was not taught in schools but there were institutions for the clergy. He who wanted to became a priest could go there. Also, anyone could become a monk or a nun. And, remember, the church was provided with funds by the state. Being a priest in Romania was and still is a very profitable job.
Therefore, this "militant atheism" of the marxist regimes is just another myth.
I'm an agnostic, though I'm rather on the atheist side of the agnosticism. Atheists and agnostics don't deny one's right to believe in God they just say that there is no God.
I think that people who stick to their religion are doing it because they are not mature enough to accept the fact that something in what they believed is an illusion. I said it before, religious people are like kids who want Santa to real.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 12:14
Cezar, you gotta be kidding. Don't you remember as a kid how there was no Santa Claus (being associated with Christianity) but mr. Frostman? Don't you remember in school how teachers (I can't say whether it was in the curriculum or not) badmouthed religion (in general), Christianity, clergy, anything they held as superstition and directed the youth to the "scientific socialism"?
I remember I wrote sometime ago in this forum about the religious persection from USSR. On Romania you can check the Final Report issued in 2006 signed by the Presidential Comission of Analysis of the Communism Regime in Romania (which is a body of scholars from various fields). "Claiming the freedom of religious choice remains a formal affirmation, as other juridical acts forbade any religious manifestation contrary to the Communist 'discipline'." (p. 404), "The most important proselyting action was of the Communist state itself, aiming for the elimination of religion from citizen life, under whatever forms it manifested." (p. 453), "Worried by the persistence of the religious beliefs, the Communist authorities were determined to initiate in the '60s-'80s actions of 'scientific education and eradication of mysticism and obscurantism from the conscience of the masses'. [...] In the Romanian theatres or sometimes on improvised scenes in factories or villages, there were staged various plays with anti-religious message or where the historical reality was manipulated and distorsionated. In the '60s-'80s many works of 'scientific atheism' were published - initially translations after Soviet authors, like the famous in that period Atheist Guide, but later autochtonous productions. Usually, it was no neutral presentation of the phenomenon, but about undisimulated attacks against practicing Christians, especially the Neo-Protestants." (p. 469),  "All the authorized cults had to face regime's propaganda through the intensification of the marxist indoctrination, the so-called 'scientific atheism' classes and the campaign against 'mysticism and obscurantism' launched through the July theses from 1971. Moreover cutting down the university positions for theology students, refusing the authorizations necessary to repair or to build churches, closing or demolishing churches, affected all the cults which functioned legally under Communism." (p. 610), etc. - you can find the Report online in Romanian.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 14:28
Quote The Marxist regimes in China, Viet Nam, Tibet are very militant towards people of faith; Christiams, Jews, Budhist etc.
This is the extreme some would carry into in the west (North American-Europe), if they could. It is like in the former USSR where they would send Christians to mental hospitals for their faith, do not think it could not happen in the west.
Quote proof if you do not believe what these millitant communist athiest are doing.
Key words you used, Marxist and Communist. Maybe Athiest by nature, but NOT representative of athiest AT ALL. Thats a political philosophy that follows a athistic view. It's actions are based mostly based on the leaders which in most cases believes organizations that don't share it's own views are bad. In other words, it's about greed and power for those leaders. It's not even a must for this philosophy from what I understand, though I do admit I'm pretty ignorant in that regard about communism and it's views on religion.
 
But my point is, you can't really call it militant atheism. There are two kinds of people we are disussing, people that have faith in something supernatural and people who don't believe in supernatural, Bealievers and Athiest. Those two words alone don't represent a philosophy at all. That why you don't see threads on Militant Believers, but you will see threads on Militant Christians or Militant Muslims etc... Why? Because they do have a philosophy and common following.
 
With Communism, I won't support it and yet I'm a Athiest. I believe there are two other athiest in this thread that wouldn't support it either. So to call it militant Atheism as a representative of Atheism is wrong, because one you can link it with something that doesn't have a philosophy and two it's more of a political system and idea then anything else.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 15:43
Chilbudios, I didn't say that there was no repression against religion I stated that things are exagerated. And don't give me that Censored of a report as a significant document. It's a political tool, nothing more. Don't mistake me, I want no excuse for those who commited atrocities or abuses in the name of communism but it had nothing to do with militant atheism. The "communists" had a political agenda and they stuck to it. The Church/Religion was seen as potential threat so they treated it as such.
That campaign against "mysticism and obscurantism" you mentioned is something the USA might need now. There are to many stances when a person can say "the Bible is all I need" and is appreciated while someone who says "I doubt there is a God" is ostracized. Religion powers up the fundamentalists, and religious people are those who want to save me or my soul. They believe in their divinity and because of that they will burn me at the stake to be sure that I will be pardoned by that illusion.
The crimes of the communist regime were not commited in the name of atheism. They were justifying them by the better good of the society. And the Church was functional those days only not so ostentative as it is  now. As for the preservation of the churches, especially those with historical and cultural significance, do you know that nowadays there are more money spent on building new than restorating the old ones?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 17:53
Cezar, that report is signed by reputable scholars. You may not like it for being issued by an official commission, you may not like the president of Romania or the president of that commisison, but basically the information there is scholarly. At page 2, you have the list of authors and coordinators, at pages 21-29 there's a chapter entitled "Historiographic references" but also there are works mentioned in the pages' footnotes.
 
This report, like other scholarly materials (http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=21719&PN=4 - check my last two posts on that page on Sep. 24, 2006), it shows there are atrocities commited in the name of atheism (you can check that episode with the psychiatric treatement recommended as cure for god-belief). I don't know under what criterion what Soviet or Romanian communists did (to destroy the belief in gods and to propagate - among other ideas - the idea there's no god but men and their intelligence, work, society, etc.) does not classify as militant atheism. The extremist atheists are as worse as religious extremists. When was the last non-believer burnt at stake? Until you'll find the answer to that one, please read on what happened in Romanian penitenciaries and sanatories under Communism and find out people tortured and killed for some time no other reason that they had the wrong belief (some religions were illegal in Communist Romania or that they confessed their religion beliefs though they were instructed to abandon them).
 
Quote The crimes of the communist regime were not commited in the name of atheism. They were justifying them by the better good of the society.
The better good of society was composed of equality, respect, atheism, etc.. There's a lot of Communist propaganda saying it I wonder how you have missed it.
 
Quote And the Church was functional those days only not so ostentative as it is  now.
Oh, really? Sources, please. I provided already and that report says the contrary.
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 14-Jan-2008 at 17:58
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Quote it shows there are atrocities commited in the name of atheism
In the name of atheism? Maybe in the name of communism, but atheism? There's no doctrine to support for it to be in the name of atheism. There isn't movement or common philosophy in atheism, its a meaning, and it means there isn't a belief that a supernatural being exists.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 23:17

If there were horrible actions whose purpose was to transform forcefully the society into an atheistic one, because they viewed the religious beliefs as "retrograde", "obscurantist", etc., I think they were done in the name of the atheism, in order for atheism to be the only allowed stance. Yes, in the case of these communist regimes the atheism was among their values (thus those actions were also in the name of the communism), but it was finally not about a forced collectivization, not to distribute equally the wealth or anything, just to force people to stop being religious.

The militant atheists have an atheistic doctrine (otherwise they couldn't be militant, they wouldn't have anything to struggle for) which besides holding the atheist belief, usually holds also some anti-theistic beliefs.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 00:48
Even more disturbing is the way ol' Jacko equates Atheists with "Satanists" (if such a thing even exists...); claiming that Atheists are actively seeking the coming of the Anti-Christ and that other nonsense he was spewing.

Here's a fair question: If atheists don't believe in a God, why would they believe in an Ant-God?

It seems Jackie Diamond forgot to wikipedia the term "Atheist" before he decided to spout off at the cork about it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 02:40
Quote If there were horrible actions whose purpose was to transform forcefully the society into an atheistic one, because they viewed the religious beliefs as "retrograde", "obscurantist", etc., I think they were done in the name of the atheism, in order for atheism to be the only allowed stance.
You can make a society SECULAR, and a doctrine can call for ending organized religion. But you can't make everyone athiest because thats in their mind. You can't force me into a believer like I can't force someone into becoming an athiest.
 
I think part of the problem between your arguement and mine is that our definition differs slightly. I view athiest meaning a definition of a person who don't have a belief in something supernatural, and nothing more then that. And I'd describe a political doctrine like Communism as pushing a secular idea or being secularly motivated. Why? Because I see no kinship with other athiest and don't think their should be a reason to group us. All of us have different ideas unless following a common doctrine, which Atheism doesn't have.
 
We always discuss Muslims and Christians in different threads. So I don't understand how we can talk about Atheist in one thread. Because outside of us not believing in a god, we nothing else in common.
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