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    Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 23:42
http://objectiveministries.org/gametheory/militantatheists.html

Confronting Militant Atheism

Article by Jack Holgroth

Who Is The Militant Atheist?

Most Christians have by now encountered the term "Militant Atheist" in the media. A few have even had the misfortune to encounter a Militant Atheist firsthand. But who is the Militant Atheist, what does he want from us, and what threat does he pose?

The Militant Atheist goes by many names: Atheist, New Atheist, Secular Humanist, Communist, Darwinist, Anarcho-Militerialist, Richard Dawkins, &c.. He hates God so much that he foolishly1 denies God's existence; He hates those who love God so much that he lashes out at them in bitter, vituperative displays of invective; And finally, pathetically, he hates himself so much that he would reject the sure payoff of God's Infinite Love in favor of the negative-sum blasphemy of an Atheistic worldview. The Militant Atheist is a man playing a predetermined game against his Creator with no hope of finding a winning strategy.

His twisted doctrine is not a new one, although it may be relatively unfamiliar to these Christian shores. In the USSR, the Union of Militant Atheists (also known as "the Union of Belligerent Atheists" or "the League of the Militant Godless") would routinely persecute Christians with their mocking and blasphemous writings, encouraged in their militancy by Party leaders2. This had its natural result in the anti-Christian violence of Stalin's regime. As we shall discover, all who profess Atheism have within them the imperative to be militant, to do violence -- first by word, then eventually by deed.

According to researchers and historians, the ultimate goal of the Militant Atheist is the destruction of Christian society through violent action. American Vision's Fool's Heart Project, which is dedicated to tracking the history and spread of Militant Atheism, makes the case that the threat posed by the Militant Atheist today is very real and historically precedented:

Dawkins%20quote
Scene from the Fool's Heart Project video (10MB).
Atheists present themselves as enlightened and civil. But this new commercial will reveal the shocking truth to viewers. The French Revolution, Communism, Nazism, etc. have taught us that the atheistic worldview will inevitably lead to the persecution of Christians and the killing of anyone who gets in the way. What's worse is that atheism is paving a wide road for Islam to advance in our nation and around the world.

As American Vision's commercial illustrates, the French Revolution's bloody Reign of Atheist Terror had its foundation in people writing in favor of "reason" and "rationality" and "thinking" in much the same way as the Dawkinses and Harrises writing books and articles do today. But is today's Militant Atheist really a tiger of the same stripe as the murderous Robespierre or other notorious Militant Atheists such as Stalin and Hitler3? Is he truly militant, or just unduly obnoxious, arrogant, and foolish? To be sure, as the video points out, Dawkins has called for the imprisonment of Christians who teach their children about God4, but can the books written by him and other Militant Atheists really be a prelude to bloodshed?

Sadly, yes.

Today's Militant Atheist is no better than his foolish ancestors (whom, presumably, he believes to be monkeys). He speaks of Reason, but is really interested in arming himself, digging himself into our Christian soil, and awaiting the coming anti-Christian military purge that he so desperately desires. Today he writes books, tomorrow he will throw bombs. Today he abuses our courts to silence God, tomorrow he will put the Christian parent on trial for "child abuse". Today he mocks the Christian, tomorrow he will hunt the Christian down in the streets like a stray dog and euthanize him to stop the "disease" of Christianity.

The Faces Of Militant Atheism Today

Richard%20Dawkins Sam%20Harris Michael%20Newdow Paul%20Z.%20Meyers
Fig. 1 Militant Atheists

The Militant Atheist varies in appearance (fig. 1), although he is most often a white male. It is next to impossible to identify him from his physical attributes alone, at least from a distance (some claim there is a look in his eyes -- a deadened, beast-like stare -- but as far as I know this has never been confirmed objectively). In the past he has favored beards in emulation of historical Atheists, particularly Charles Darwin and Karl Marx, but this seems to have fallen out of fashion with the changing times.

Christopher%20Hitchens
Fig. 2 Militant Atheist engaged in typical behavior

He often dons abnormal garb when he rises to power (e.g. the various uniforms of Communism, Nazism, &c.), but while lying in wait in our society the Militant Atheist typically dresses in attire socially appropriate for the occasion, though perhaps looking more disheveled than average. He will sometimes wear offensive tee-shirts or place blasphemous decals on his automobile, but the lack of these signs cannot be counted on for identification purposes.

Most of the Militant Atheist's typical activities are done in secret (fig. 2), away from the eye of the Christian, so they do not reveal him to his neighbors -- or even his family members. Whether writing or reading screeds on Atheism, posting to Internet discussion forums mocking the Lord, or simply stewing alone in his anti-Christian hatred, his Atheistic behavior usually goes unnoticed by those around him. He attends no "Atheist church", although he may join organizations dedicated to suing against the free exercise of Christianity. On Sunday mornings he can be found either staying home slothfully or blending in with the Jews and lapsed, nonobservant Christians milling about hopelessly in public away from church.

What gives the Militant Atheist away is when he opens his mouth. He cannot help but hatefully insult God, Christianity, Christians, Faith, and the Bible every chance he gets. He will go out of his way to bring up pointless, refuted objections to the Gospel, and list his many perceived grievances against Christians -- all either trivial or delusional. Even when he is guarded in his speech to hide his intentions, knee-jerk sarcasm and a general tone of haughtiness give away his true opinion of all things related to God. He sneers, he gloats, he shows contempt for reverence and ignorance of Truth. The Militant Atheist uses his words like the punches of an angry drunk, never hitting their mark, but always intended to do the utmost violence. This is how you will identify the Militant Atheist.

Although most often afflicting men, it's not unheard of for impressionable women to suffer from Atheism, usually in association with emotional abuse. A recent example of this phenomena, as well as of the Militant Atheist's self-exposure through unwarranted hate-speech, is Secular television actress Kathy Griffin (fig. 3), a self-avowed "complete Militant Atheist" who shocked even fellow Hollywood Liberals at the 2007 Emmy awards ceremony by yelling a crude blasphemy at the Lord then announcing that the golden statuette "is my god now".

Kathy%20Griffin
Fig. 3
Patty%20Hearst
Fig. 4

While Griffin claims that her Catholic school experience drove her to Militant Atheism, there were many years between her exposure to the flawed teachings of the Catholics and this militant outburst. Her public transformation from relatively harmless Secular entertainer to militant anti-God agitator reminds me of nothing so much as the notorious 1974 forced transformation of Patty Hearst into Tania, the Symbionese guerilla terrorist (fig. 4). Could there be a connection? Could Militant Atheist groups be kidnapping people and brainwashing them for propaganda use or as sleeper cell agents? That's one possible explanation for the existence of the Militant Atheist, though certainly not the only.

What Drives A Man To Militant Atheism?

Now that we have met the Militant Atheist, we must ask: How did he become so twisted?

Why would a man, created by God in His image, wish to deny the very existence of He who Loves him more than any other being could? Theopsychologists have long wrestled with this vexing question, but have been unable to come to a satisfactory conclusion. Some suggest it is the result of his selfish desire to be free of accountability for his actions; others, that he is indoctrinated by a constant stream of Atheistic media propaganda produced by a small number of Satan's agents on earth; others still, that he suffers from some sort of brain damage, leaving him in a state of spiritual unaffectedness.

Whatever the origins of Atheism may be, given that, against all reason, the Atheist exists, that he would be driven to militarism and violence is actually understandable -- even unavoidable. He clearly suffers from some manner of derangement, either proceeding his Atheism or as a result of it, that causes him to lash out in irrational anger. He is unable to understand why he cannot function as a healthy spiritual person the way the rest of us do, making him both jealous and resentful. Most importantly, being separated from God, the wellspring of Love, drives him insane with hate.

Naturally, this leads us to conclude that militancy is an inherent part of the Atheistic mindset, that the Atheist will always seek violence, starting with the violence of intemperate words and escalating to the horrors of Stalinism. Unless we can convert him, heal his spiritual wounds, the Militant Atheist will always be a danger to society.

The Atheist Hides His Militancy In Plain Sight

"Surely this is an exaggeration," some may protest, "The Atheist cannot possibly be that militant." By His Grace, we Christians are often too pure in our hearts to fully appreciate the spiritual depths to which the Militant Atheist has sunk, and of what acts of benthic blasphemy he is capable as the slimy hagfish of nihilism slowly pick apart his soul. Make no mistake about it, though, the Militant Atheist isn't just "militant" in the adjectival sense, he is also a Militant of the nounal variety.

Clues to the Militant Atheist's literal militancy are not difficult to find for those with the stomach to look. For example, take the iconic imagery used by Atheist organizations:

American%20Atheists%20logo
Fig. 5
Soviet%20nuclear%20warhead
Fig. 6

The so-called "American Atheists"5 -- an oxymoron if ever there was -- is the largest Atheist organization operating in our nation. They have as their logo (fig. 5) what is clearly a combination of a nuclear atom with a missile head, such as the nuclear warheads used by the Soviets (fig. 6). They claim this logo is merely symbolic of their worship of science, but its true purpose is to signal to their compatriots their goal to obtain nuclear devices to use against Christians.

Surrendering%20Humanist
Fig. 7
French%20Revolution
Fig. 8 Secular Humanism's "justice"

The logo of the Secular Humanists (fig. 7) represents a person with arms raised in surrender, presumably to an Atheistic military dictatorship. The figure is called "Happy Human" by the Humanists, a name intended to inculcate passive acceptance of this surrender to Godlessness. And if that Orwellian tactic doesn't work, the surrendering figure has his head decapitated to echo the mode of punishment favored during the Atheistic French Revolution for those who did not toe the Secular Humanist's line (fig. 8).

Consider also the "entertainment" produced by the Militant Atheist. In 2001: A Space Odyssey, the magnum opus of Militant Atheist and Darwinian film director Stanley Kubrick, man-apes at the beginning of time are inspired not by the light of God, but by the inky depths of a black monolith, symbolic of the cold void of Atheism. And what inspiration does this Prophet of Atheism bring to the man-apes? It teaches them hate for their fellow man-apes and how to create weapons to kill (fig. 9). This is the origins theory that the Militant Atheist demands we teach our children.

2001%20ape-man
Fig. 9
Conquest%20of%20the%20Planet%20of%20the%20Apes
Fig. 10 Dramatized Atheist uprising

Worse yet, in the 1972 film Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, Darwinian symbolism is used to represent Atheists as apes, kept brutally enslaved and beaten by humans, who symbolically represent Christians. (This, of course, is just deceitful, self-serving propaganda designed to rationalize their unjustified hatred of Christians; Atheists were never enslaved by Christians and rarely beaten -- and then only with just cause.) Caesar, the talking6 leader of the Atheist-apes, provokes an uprising in which apes seize the humans' own weapons and use them to destroy human (Christian) civilization in a bloody, howling rampage of violence (fig. 10). To the Militant Atheist, this movie is a "cult classic" that serves as a not-so-cryptic roadmap to his vision of the future: the Conquest of Christendom.

More so than his choice of imagery and symbolism, or even his written declarations, the Militant Atheist signals his desire for violence against the Christian by his acts -- in particular, his seeking to insinuate himself into our Christian military to subvert it to his decidedly un-Christian ends.

How The Atheist Has Infiltrated Our Foxhole

During the Cold War, we provided training, weapons, and funding to the Mujahideen in Afghanastan to aid them in their fight against the USSR. We did so thinking the Mussulman preferable to the Godless Soviet, since the former at least shared our trust in God, however confused the Mussulman may have been about His identity and plan for Humanity. Thus, we were willing to overlook our differences and past hostilities in the face of our common enemy: Atheistic Communism. This unstable cooperative strategy has since came back to haunt us.7

Now we see history repeating in the Global War on Terror. In looking for a common enemy of our enemy, we have reached out to our former foe the Atheist and recruited him into the ranks of our military. We have trained him in the use of our weapons and allowed him to learn our tactics. We do all this because he finds the radicalized Islamicist as much an enemy as do we and is willing to fight, even if out of blind hatred and selfishness rather than righteousness and just cause.

But once we have defeated the Terror, should we not expect that the Atheist will turn against us much as the Musselman did? The Militant Atheist pledges no allegiance to our flag or to God -- he does not share our common American creed; so why then does he fight for God's favored nation? The answer is simple: he does so only to leech our strength and weaken from within our ability to defend Christian civilization.

Already the Militant Atheist, having camouflaged himself in our uniform, has begun chipping away at the Christian bedrock of our military (aided, of course, by his close friend: the ACLU Lawyer). Example: because of the crocodile-tears of Militant Atheists who somehow managed to gain entrance to the U.S. Air Force Academy, instructors there are now no longer allowed to train cadets in the Christian values upon which our nation was founded.8 The young men and women graduating from this institution as officers, who will be placed in positions of power where life and death decisions must be made under fire, will be without traditional military training in how to seek guidance from our Lord. This is unacceptable!

Atheistic meddling isn't just an issue in military academia; it has started to creep into our combat deployed forces. Recently, Major Freddy Welborn, warrior for the Lord Jesus Christ currently serving in Iraq, had a frivolous lawsuit filed against him by Atheists. The lawsuit seeks to keep Major Welborn from freely practicing his religious calling to preach the Gospel of God to service men and women in Iraq -- including service men holding "Atheist meetings" on government property. As of this writing, the case hasn't yet gone to trial. However, just the threat of such litigation will cause our brave Christian soldiers to worry about their assets being seized by Atheist lawyers back home while they're fighting on the front line. This vexatious distraction will endanger lives and provide comfort to our enemies.

The Atheist may be a fool, but I fear he is less so than those in our leadership who have allowed him to infiltrate our armed forces. Will not World War Five9 pit God's enemies against those left behind after the Rapture, when we Christians have ascended bodily into Heaven? We know that all Jews will become Christians then, and many from other false faiths will finally seek to learn the Good News and join in the fight against the Antichrist; but the Militant Atheist, driven by irrational hatred, is the least likely to accept the Truth and turn away from Evil. Will he not relish the disappearance of his Christian foes? Indeed, is not the Tribulation exactly for what the Militant Atheist has lusted?

Are we not then, by allowing Militant Atheists access to our arsenal and military know-how, helping to fill the ranks of the very army of the Antichrist that those freshly converted Christians will have to fight? God created America and Graced her with military might so that we may set the stage for Tribulation prior to Rapture. While the end game is already determined and God's final strategy cannot but win, by allowing Christian-trained Atheist soldiers -- and our equipment to which they have access, including the nuclear devices that the "American Atheists" so crave -- to fall into the hands of the Forces of Darkness, we will just be leaving behind a larger mess to clean-up when we the Elect return with Christ to establish His Kingdom on Earth. We only have one shot at the End Times, people; let's not do a sloppy job about it.

The age-old adage that "There are no Atheists in foxholes" has been shown to be mistaken. They are in our foxholes, plotting our destruction. Militant Atheism is a clear and present danger to not only combat readiness, but to the very future of Christian society and to the viability of a weak and confused post-Rapture Tribulation Force tasked with the final witnessing objective before the Second Coming. We must act now to rid our armed forces of this undesirable element before it is too late -- the fate of billions of souls hangs in the balance!

Fighting The Militant Atheist

UPDATE: Many of you, alarmed at the dangerous rise of Militant Atheism in our nation, and particularly in our military, have written to me since this article was released asking what can be done to fight the scourge of the Militant Atheist infiltrating our Armed Forces. Fortunately there are a number of good organizations, known as military para-church ministries, working to make sure that our military remains a Christian one. Here are a few of the more notable, well-funded ones:

Campus Crusade Military Ministry:

Military Ministry is a subsidiary of Campus Crusade for Christ established in 1964. MM seeks to help every troop, every leader, every family member hear and receive the life saving message about Jesus. They are very active on military and ROTC campuses, working to make sure our soldiers remain in a state of Spiritual Readiness through their Valor programs.

Their vision is to transform the nations of the world through the militaries of the world. Their mission is "to Win, Build, and Send in the power of the Holy Spirit and establish movements of spiritual multiplication in the worldwide military community."

As they note: "the battle is nigh; the time is short; we, together, can make a difference, an eternal difference."

Officers' Christian Fellowship:

The OCF, whose motto is: "Christian officers exercising Biblical leadership to raise up a godly military," seeks to glorify God by uniting Christian officers for biblical fellowship and outreach, equipping and encouraging them to minister effectively in the military society. They have 15,000 members in the US officer corps spread across 200 bases worldwide. Their vision for the US Armed Forces by 2011:

A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform, empowered by the Holy Spirit, living with a passion for God and compassion for the entire military society.

To achieve that vision, they have developed strategic goals -- divided into Leadership, Outreach, Family, and Stewardship -- which include such important objectives as encouraging Biblical marriage and parenthood throughout the military environment, and carrying the gospel through the medium of ordinary relationships among the entire military community.

In order to accomplish its goals, the OCF's Capital Campaign is raising $12.5 million to build state-of-the-art facilities in White Sulphur Springs, PA and Spring Canyon, CO, which will serve as family retreats and conference centers.

Christian Embassy:

Christian Embassy was founded in 1975 and seeks to help diplomats, government leaders and military officers find real and lasting purpose through faith and encouragement. The Embassy especially ministers to the Pentagon, making sure that the Chain of Command is not corrupted by Atheist outsiders. Their Bible study curriculum is used by over 350 Bible study classes throughout the halls of power in Washington DC.

Footnotes:

  1. "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." (Psalm 14:1)

  2. See Lenin's manifesto of Atheistic militancy, On The significance of Militant Materialism.

  3. See Dinesh D'Souza's "Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history" and "Answering Atheists' Arguments".

  4. See "UK petition against religious upbringing".

  5. The "American Atheists" was founded by notorious Militant Atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair, who died the way she lived: violently. Their website can be found here.

  6. Note how literacy and the ability to speak with the same fluency as the humans/Christians is pointedly used as the sign of the violent revolutionary who will lead the apes/Atheists to war with human/Christian society, clearly telegraphing the end-game that well-spoken Atheist authors like Dawkins and Harris are playing toward.

  7. At the time, I and my fellow Game Theoreticians working at the Department of Defense cautioned against this strategy. Our Payoff Matrices for the Afghanastan theater -- generated both from still-classified game theories and via simulations on our trusty Cray -- all pointed to the unstable nature of the Christian/Mussulman solution concept, with equilibria worryingly dependent on the continued existence of the Soviet Union. It was a game where to win might mean to lose.

    Our warnings were ignored by a civilian leadership that paid too little heed to game theory, and so the support of the Mujahideen went ahead. Unfortunately it turned out that we Game Theoreticians were right, for though we won the Cold War, out of our Mujahideen "allies" rose many of the very terrorists that we are now fighting.

  8. See "Air Force cracks down on Christian 'coercion'".

  9. DoD Eschatologists since the Hoover administration have agreed that World War Five will be the Tribulation -- this is why the Pentagon was built with only five sides, as no more would be needed after that final Secular battle. (For those not keeping count, the Cold War was WW3 and the current Global War on Terror is WW4.)


I decided to shoot old "Diamond" Jack Holgroth an e-mail in response. I mean, honestly, what sort of Salem Witch-Hunt nonsense is this? Are there people in the world who actually buy into this vitriol and hate-mongering? Is this offensive to anyone else, Christian or not? I'd like to submit it for to debate to the public forum, since obviously I am not as "Objective" as this fellow or his ministry. This is what I wrote to him, verbatim.


Dear Sir,
I was introduced to your 'Confronting Militant Atheists' article by a friend through the Camps Crusade for Christ at Towson University, in Baltimore, Maryland, which I currently attend. A little prologue, before I begin: I am an atheist myself, and am in no way trying to "subvert" the faith of my Christian friend (in fact, I respect his beliefs, and indeed respect him for them, as he seems to have been able to find a pocket Providence which seems to have escaped me), though we do enjoy spirited debates about the nature and/ or existence of God, and generally enjoy one another's friendship. We engage in "Christian" activities together, belonging to the same Greek Life Fraternity, and volunteering through many of the same Charities. I have even attended Sunday Church with him before, at his encouragement, to see if maybe I could find something in it to encourage me towards belief- and no, I did not try to "subvert" any members of his congregation, but calmly and introspectively listened to and contemplated the messages of the Reverend, and reflected on it afterwards. I believe Atheists are just as capable of open-mindedness and are as open to tolerance of beliefs as any practicing Christian. I mean this as a means of exposition; Atheists, sir, are not bad people because they don't believe in God- they are just as capable of "Christian" acts and actions as any Christian. That said, just because a person believes in God does not make him a "good" person; if it did, why would there be priests and ministers attending Death Row inmates to hear final confessions, and offer last rites?
But my main point, sir, is that you seem to little understanding of the sort of people you see vehemently criminalize. The vast majority of us are no more trying to destroy Western Civilization than any Christian, nor are we trying to convert anyone away from their faith in whatever God or Gods they see fit to believe in. If anyone can be accused of trying to change the minds of people to fall in line with their own goals and agendas, it would be messianic faiths such as evangelical Christianity. I can say with a certainty that I have never tried to convince any one of any faith away from their beliefs, and I am certain the vast majority of atheists would agree with me. We are not part of some Satanic coven; there are no secret societies seeking to steal away Christians to corrupt them in the image of the anti-Christ, and we MOST CERTAINLY are not seeking nuclear weapons to use against Christians. I highly suggest, sir, that you seek within yourself, and look for a little bit of that Christian peace and understanding you espouse so highly, rather than exhorting your fellow Christians towards hatred and actions against people who are just trying to live their lives as they see fit; just like you and your fellow Christians. Rhetoric such as you have demonstrated is not the language of love, of Christianity, but of hate and intolerance. There can be no less Christian sentiments than these two. I hope that you are able to find love and empathy for those you so vilify. Jesus would be proud.
Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,
Brian J Checco

Was this a judicious and level-headed response? Can anyone give me some insight into why people feel so threatened by those whose beliefs differ from their own? I'm absolutely at a loss right now. I thought this was the 21st century, not the 17th...

Edit: This is also very negative towards Muslims as well. How can some sects of "Christianity" be so ingrained in intolerance and hate?


Edited by Brian J Checco - 12-Dec-2007 at 23:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 23:52
Jack Holgroth gets my vote for president.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 00:00
People like him would be no different in a relatively lawless society to the likes of Zarqawi and friends.  I think your response was superb, though i would have gone for the jugular with a little more ferocity at the end.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 00:10
Eh, I liked the "Jesus would be proud" part. Plus, reacting with "violent rhetoric" would undermine my own position, as well as strengthen his. And, f*ck that. I'd rather not give him the satisfaction to say to his buddies, "See? This is the kind of rude, unChristian crap these Atheists will send to you..."
Honestly, I'd more likely try to open up the minds of people like that then merely call them c*nts... And no, I don't mean subvert them to atheism...
The scary thing is, I did some research on that guy, and he used to work for the department of defense... Zagros, in some ways, you were right about the neocon agenda. Crazy, man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 00:17
I like your responce, I hope it shuts him up. The only way I relate to other athiest is that we all don't believe in a supernatural being. I wish their was a seperate name since now it's believed all athiests share a common doctrine that they follow and have an agenda against the "believers".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 00:37
That's because of the propagation of misinformation, such as the writing of articles by the likes of Mr. Holgroth.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 05:07
Wow, if beards are a sign of the militant atheist, what does that say about our hierarchs and clergy here in the Orthodox Church? LOL
 
Wow, when I first read through this, I thought it was a joke; I literally checked the source to make sure that you weren't trying to pull on over on me. I mean honestly, who uses the term "Mussulman" anymore? When was it ever used? I've heard the term "Ishmaelite" used more than "Mussulman".
 
That said, you are correct, the guy is an ass. What is more troubling is that he is an ass who obviously a) has a following, and b) has no qualms about resorting to disturbing rhetoric. But part of my problem with people like Dawkins is precisely that they share both of these characteristics. Thus, while the majority of the "article" was a hateful joke, this evident absurdity should not be used to discredit the existence of militant atheism -- which has become so dogmatic that it is, after a fashion, a religion unto itself.
 
Anyway, the guy is a nut. Your response was measured; although I would have phrased it a bit differently, were I in your position, there would have been no great change in tone.
 
-Akolouthos
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You can pick any given paragraph in that article and not one single part of it makes a rational argument. I know because I randomly picked out different paragraphs and they are all alike. I'm going to print this out and next time I have friends over we shall have a good laugh over it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 05:17
Again; sad part- Fellow was one of the Game Theoreticians who worked for the Department of Defense... this isn't scary to anyone else?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 05:21
PS- Dawkins and Hitchens are just as annoying to atheists as they are to believers; I just want to be left alone to figure out my spirituality (or lack thereof) for myself; I don't want or need anyone, atheist, christian, muslim, jew, hindu, hare krishna, (fill in your own blanks) telling me anything one way or the other- messianic atheism is for the same sort of people who follow religions without a strong foundation for belief; whoever gets to them first and talks the loudest will make their mind up for them. If anyone stopped believing in God because of a book someone wrote, they're impressionable. If they start believing in God for the same reason, they're impressionable. Make up your own damn minds, people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 12:07
This isn't a joke from uncyclopedia? Wow...
To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 13:09
Originally posted by Brian J Checco Brian J Checco wrote:

Eh, I liked the "Jesus would be proud" part. Plus, reacting with "violent rhetoric" would undermine my own position, as well as strengthen his. And, f*ck that. I'd rather not give him the satisfaction to say to his buddies, "See? This is the kind of rude, unChristian crap these Atheists will send to you..."
Honestly, I'd more likely try to open up the minds of people like that then merely call them c*nts... And no, I don't mean subvert them to atheism...
The scary thing is, I did some research on that guy, and he used to work for the department of defense... Zagros, in some ways, you were right about the neocon agenda. Crazy, man.


No, by all means it was superb, like I said.  But I don't think that the minds of such people can so easily be changed or opened.  Btw, by ferocity and going for the jugular I didn't mean with the use of expletives. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 16:16
My forgiveness, sir. I'm an American. We're a simple people. We're either polite, or insulting someone's mother.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 16:36

Wow, that's some vituperation from an individual (not you, Brian). While in the communist era, though atheism was encouraged, the Church was, like it is now, an institution of the state. As a matter of fact there was it was part of the Goverment in "Ministerul Culturii si Cultelor"="Ministry of Culture and Cults". The Romanian Orthodox Church is still a state institution though not to a very large extent, our country turns slowly to becaming really secular. People were indeed discouraged to believe but freedom of religion was guaranteed by the Constitution. Off course there have been plaenty of perscutions against believers but not to the extent Western Propaganda states. And there was a very sound policy, IMHO, of slamming down any kind of religious fervor. Of course, political indoctrination was the rule ny then but trust me, people didn't really took what they were told at political propaganda for granted. If it would have been so we would be "reds" and the cold war winners.

On the other hand, different sects appeared during those days, like the Jehova witnesses. These guys are quite harmless compared to others. I remember reading a book "Pericolul sectelor religioase"="Religious Sects Danger".  Well documented and with only a slight propagandism it really was a book to read. Unfortunately now those sectants have become former disidents or persecuted so they grew up and are difficult to remove from the public life. Fortunately, the Romanian Orthodox Church, the Romano Catholic Cchurh and the Reformate still hold the most of the belivers in my country. They hold to tradition and are definitely not anti-social like the individual who wrote that article but their are well balanced in their propaganda. And we certainly do not allow any kind of organization to interfere with the military. Are the commanders of the US Army and Navy irresponsible? How can they allow such things?
You don't need a Presidential decision to start a conflict you only need a crazy individual with acces to a damaging enough piece of warjunk. Religious fervor combined with weapons is not a healthy combination.
Maybe US citizens should really get responsible and act according to their (and not only) interests. They seem to be very proud of your rights and freedom.
It has been said that most americans don't vote because they don't like politicians. Well, that also mean they don't care who is in charge. There are guys wielding agendas and are recruiting adepts. Then they get the votes since people are too lazy to get involved in the democratic process. Eventually people get hurt and start asking "How did it came to this?".
Everybody seems to agree that Germans share their burden of Hitler's atrocities because they did not act to stop them. US citizens are to be blamed by the mess in Iraq not just because they actively supported their President but also because they did not actively confronted him. It seems that memory is short in the USA, the Vietnam war was only four decades ago. And that was a far more legitimate war than Iraq.
So what's the real impact of these preaches on the american society?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 19:40
I think you missed the point... this article is written by a very uninformed mad who hasn't the slightest notion as to what he's talking about. There are no 'atheist conspiracies,' and we certainly aren't 'infiltrating the military.' This dudes just a hate-monger creating bogeymen to scare his constituents to further the aims of his own affiliation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 20:16
Agreed.
 
While no one would deny the existence of militant atheism, the idea that there is some sort of subversive conspiracy is utter rubbish -- and dangerous rubbish at that. The secularist agenda has always been pushed in a quite public fashion, and people like Dawkins, Newdow, and Hitchens are no exception. Indeed, if there is some sort of grand conspiracy, these individuals are certainly doing a downright awful job of aiding their cause. If their goal is discreet infiltration, they might want to consider authoring fewer books, going on fewer talk-shows, engaging in fewer public debates, and -- in the case of Newdow -- bringing fewer lawsuits. LOL
 
This sort of nonsense is what I view as the truly scary thing about the above article: the rhetorical tricks the author uses to characterize militant atheism as a conspiracy perpetuated by subhuman hatemongers, who are incapable of rational thought, and out to get us at every turn. To be sure, the author uses these rhetorical tricks rather poorly; if I were a professional propagandist, I certainly wouldn't hire him. It is the fact that they are used at all that is frightening.
 
As I said, militant atheism exists -- and, as Brian noted, it is as much an embarrasment to agnostics as it is an annoyance to believers. I do view it as a threat. But it is a threat that must be confronted in the same way in which any other social ill is confronted: responsible, open dialogue and peaceful advocacy. The ridiculous rhetoric of Holgroth is a natural precursor to the advocation of a harsh, extraordinary solution to a largely fabricated problem. Thus, it must be condemned.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 14-Dec-2007 at 20:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2007 at 01:11
Interesting article - but one problem - it's quite clearly written by some kind of Christian extremist. Whilst I see where they are theoratically coming from, it would be more interesting and philosophically viable to have another more liberal Atheist writing something like this
"Don't raise your voice - we all know how lovely it is!"
Triano, in "Mosterella" by Plautus! Read it...now!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 11:59

I find what Holgroth is writing very American and extremely narow-minded.

He even uses great historical events,twists their truthfull and logical course of events,just for a propaganda aimed only at American christians,thats why ,he can only be belived by some blind brain-washed American christians who in the words of their own spiritual leaders,there are only two kind of people in the world.

THOSE WHO LOVE JESUS AND THOSE WHO HATE JESUS.
 
 
Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 13:55
Brian, I guess you missed my point. I'm not concened about atheism, since I see it as less harmful. Evene the most radical atheist can't rise a fanatic fervour in his/her disciples. I'm more concened about these:
Quote Military Ministry is a subsidiary of Campus Crusade for Christ established in 1964. MM seeks to help every troop, every leader, every family member hear and receive the life saving message about Jesus. They are very active on military and ROTC campuses, working to make sure our soldiers remain in a state of Spiritual Readiness through their Valor programs.
The OCF, whose motto is: "Christian officers exercising Biblical leadership to raise up a godly military," seeks to glorify God by uniting Christian officers for biblical fellowship and outreach, equipping and encouraging them to minister effectively in the military society. They have 15,000 members in the US officer corps spread across 200 bases worldwide. Their vision for the US Armed Forces by 2011:
A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform, empowered by the Holy Spirit, living with a passion for God and compassion for the entire military society.
To achieve that vision, they have developed strategic goals -- divided into Leadership, Outreach, Family, and Stewardship -- which include such important objectives as encouraging Biblical marriage and parenthood throughout the military environment, and carrying the gospel through the medium of ordinary relationships among the entire military community.
In order to accomplish its goals, the OCF's Capital Campaign is raising $12.5 million to build state-of-the-art facilities in White Sulphur Springs, PA and Spring Canyon, CO, which will serve as family retreats and conference centers.
Do these organizations exist? If so, how? Their relation with the military is extremely dangerous, in my opinion.
15.000 of US officers affiliated to the a thing like OCF? One of these my decide that destroying the mosque in Mecca will serve as a good lesson for the heathen.
The fact that policticians use the military is bad enough, is there any need for the religious driven nutheads to be allowed to interfere? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 18:02
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

I'm not concened about atheism, since I see it as less harmful.
 
Well you would, wouldn't you? LOL
 
Quote Evene the most radical atheist can't rise a fanatic fervour in his/her disciples.
 
False.
 
Quote Do these organizations exist? If so, how? Their relation with the military is extremely dangerous, in my opinion.
 
True.
 
Quote One of these my decide that destroying the mosque in Mecca will serve as a good lesson for the heathen.
 
False.
 
Quote
The fact that policticians use the military is bad enough, is there any need for the religious driven nutheads to be allowed to interfere? 
 
A valid point.
 
-Akolouthos
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