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Forum Locked"Cockroach" versus Panzers - first WW II tank aces

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Cockroach" versus Panzers - first WW II tank aces
    Posted: 23-Dec-2008 at 20:42
"Panzerwaffe officer captured during first days of September 1939 was praising speed and nimbleness of a Polish tankette, claiming that: "...it is very hard to hit such a small cockroach from a gun"."

"Cockroach versus Panzers":

Plutonowy podchorąży rez. Roman Edmund Orlik (71. armoured dyon of Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade) was one of the first tank aces of the Second World War:





In September of 1939 his tank was TKS tankette with automatic gun calibre 20mm:



His driver was kapral Bronisław Zakrzewski:



- On 14th of September during the battle of Brochów he eliminated 3 tanks from Panzer-Regiment 36. from 4. Panzer-Division.

Map is showing the battle of Brochów (14th - 15th of September 1939). Map is showing situation around 20:00 on 14th of September 1939 - it comes from the album "Army Poznań 1939" by Piotr Bauer and Bogusław Polak:

"Offensive of Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade on Brochów on 14th of September 1939 (situation at 20:00)":



The battle of Brochów was fully won by the Poles.

- On 18th of September during the combat of Pociecha he eliminated 3 tanks from Panzer-Regiment 11. from 1. Leichte-Division. He also destroyed several motorized vehicles during that combat and took 2 prisoners of war (tank crew). He also tried to rescue the crew of one of those eliminated by him German tanks - which started to burn - but he - unfortunately - didn't manage to rescue them and all of them died.

Among tanks eliminated by Orlik on 18th of September there was tank of Leutnant (or Oberleutnant ?) Victor IV Albrecht von Ratibor - commander of a platoon. The whole his platoon was eliminated during that combat and Prinz Victor IV Albrecht von Ratibor was heavily WIA and severely burned - and after a few minutes he died. He was born in 1916 and was first son of Victor III August and Elizabeth zu Oettingen-Oettingen und Öttingen-Spilberg:

http://www.gen.heinz-wember.de/hohenlohe/ViktorIIIA1879.htm

Orlik's victories (kills) during combat of Pociecha (1., 2. and 3.):



- On 19th of September Orlik eliminated 7 German tanks (from Panzer-Abteilung 65. or from I. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 11.) during the battle of Sieraków. Most of those 7 tanks eliminated (most probably 6 of them) were Pz-35(t) tanks.

His tankette was one of 2 tankettes from 71. armoured dyon of Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade (both of them were TKS tankettes with 20mm automatic guns) which broke through to Warsaw (during the night from 20th to 21st of September 1939). He was later fighting in Warsaw until 28th of September 1939.

Orlik's victories (kills) during the battle of Sieraków (1., 2., 3., [...], 7.):



Total: 3 + 3 + 7 = 13 kills.

Edited by Domen - 29-Dec-2008 at 12:05
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2008 at 21:53
If it comes to the battle of Sieraków itself:

- On 19th of September Orlik eliminated 7 German tanks (from Panzer-Abteilung 65. or from I. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 11.) during the battle of Sieraków. Most of those 7 tanks eliminated (most probably 6 of them) were Pz-35(t) tanks.


German sources say that during the failed German Panzer counterattack on Sieraków, Panzer-Abteilung 65. lost 26 KIA and WIA tank crewmen (including 4 officers, 5 NCOs and 17 soldiers).

The majority of tanks of Panzer-Abteilung 65. which took part in the attack (and most probably the whole Abteilung took part) were eliminated during that battle. Also Bade writes about this. According to Bade (and also according to German daily reports) the remaining German tanks escaped towards Hornówek and Lipków.

German tanks were attacking (according to Bade - but Polish sources confirm it) in two separated groups at the same time (it is possible - but not certain -, that apart from Panzer-Abteilung 65. also I. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 11. took part in that attack - or at least some part of it). Both groups were defeated and dispersed.

From the first group the Poles eliminated 27 tanks - 7 by Orlik, 20 by 7. light artillery dyon (direct fire) and 7. horse rifle regiment (the majority by regimental AT guns). During combats with this group the Poles (7. horse rifle regiment) lost 56 men - 14 KIA and 42 WIA.

From the second group the Poles eliminated 11 tanks - including 2 by direct fire of artillery platoon from 14. light artillery dyon (porucznik F. Orzeszko) and 3 by platoon of AT guns cal. 37mm of podporucznik Wiktor Ziemiński from 14. uhlan regiment (two of them were destroyed by Wiktor Ziemiński himself). The remaining 6 were eliminated by elements of 17. and 14. uhlan regiments and 9. horse rifle regiment.

Before the German counterattack, during the Polish attack on Sieraków (in the morning - the attack started , around 10:00 - so after less than 10 hours - Sieraków was captured), platoon from 15. light artillery regiment eliminated 2 tanks. Few tanks were also eliminated by 6. uhlan regiment - which was fighting north of Sieraków. And also in Sieraków (during the Polish attack) - apart from 34 German trucks (full of equipment and ammo), which were captured and later destroyed there, a few tanks were eliminated. While conquering Sieraków Polish forces also captured 9 machine guns.

Polish forces which took part in the battle of Sieraków - Laski (elements of Wielkopolska and Podolska Cavalry Brigades) were fighting both with tanks of Panzer-Abteilung 65. and tanks of I. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 11. during that day.

During the battle of Sieraków the Poles captured - according to the Polish sources - 70 POWs from II./KSR.4 and inflicted heavy casualties to it.

According to the German sources - both the German daily reports and relation of Bade - II./KSR.4 was dispersed and crushed during that day, and the remaining rests of it gathered on the road from Truskaw to Izabelin, where they established a hedgehog defence.

Edited by Domen - 23-Dec-2008 at 22:03
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2008 at 01:44
lol Domen, you have the greatest Thread titles like "Panzers crushed by infantry". and "Cockroach versus Panzers." those names tend to make one who is skimming over the threads say wtf??. lol regardless they are very interesting stories and makes you think that sometimes that smaller is better.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 12:05

- On 18th of September during the combat of Pociecha he eliminated 3 tanks from Panzer-Regiment 11. from 1. Leichte-Division. He also destroyed several motorized vehicles during that combat and took 2 prisoners of war (tank crew). He also tried to rescue the crew of one of those eliminated by him German tanks - which started to burn - but he - unfortunately - didn't manage to rescue them and all of them died.

Among tanks eliminated by Orlik on 18th of September there was tank of Leutnant (or Oberleutnant ?) Victor IV Albrecht von Ratibor - commander of a platoon. The whole his platoon was eliminated during that combat and Prinz Victor IV Albrecht von Ratibor was heavily WIA and severely burned - and after a few minutes he died. He was born in 1916 and was first son of Victor III August and Elizabeth zu Oettingen-Oettingen und Öttingen-Spilberg:

http://www.gen.heinz-wember.de/hohenlohe/ViktorIIIA1879.htm

Orlik's victories (kills) during combat of Pociecha (1., 2. and 3.):




And here some interesting pictures related to this event:



The same Panzer IV B:







After transporting it to some factory (I don't know the exact place):



Here the same place - more wrecks can be seen:



Wow... - he destroyed Panzer IV B with use of TKS with 20mm gun... - it is like destroying Panzer IV B with use of some poor version of Panzer II...

Previously I thought that Prinz von Ratibor was fighting in Pz-35(t)... - but it seems that I was wrong.

And - when looking more carefully - even in the picture above, when Orlik marked his tank victories during the combat near Pociecha - three tanks can be seen, including 2 smaller (Pz-35ts) and one larger - this larger one is probably Panzer IV of von Ratibor - and it is burning in the picture... Everything correct.

Edited by Domen - 29-Dec-2008 at 22:38
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 13:01
How many tankettes were destroyed by Panzers? Hundreds? thousands? And they got 3 Panzers a battle in return, hardly a good turnover.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 14:45
Poland had got 574 tankettes but only over a dozen of them were equipped in something more than a single machine gun (including Orlik's one).

No more than few dozens of them were destroyed.

Also some more were damaged - maybe over a hundred.

==========================================================

Here some more photos of German tanks from Poland 1939, which were destroyed most probably during tank battles / combats:

Several photos of Panzer IV completely destroyed in Głowaczów on 10.09.1939 during the battle with Polish 7TP tanks from 1. Light Tanks Battalion. On 10th of September the battalion was succesfully securing withdrawal of Polish units from Army "Prusy" (Northern Grouping of Army "Prusy") towards the area east of the river Vistula against German forces which were trying to cut-off route of the Polish withdrawal.

During succesfull withdrawal behind the river Vistula, six 7TP tanks from 1. Light Tanks Battalion sunk in the river:

























And here one photo of completely destroyed Panzer IV most probably during the battle of Piotrków Trybunalski on 05.09.1939 - it is possible that by Polish 7TP tank from 2. Light Tank Battalion - but the photo comes from the album of soldier from I. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 23. (so it is also possible that this is one of a few Panzer IVs this battalion had got - and that it was destroyed during the battle at the Bzura after 08 / 09.09.1939 - I'm not shure):


but the photo comes from the album of soldier from I. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 23.


Here it is:

http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e285/hagridmerlino/ZPANZER/?action=view&current=AAAZPANZER46.jpg



Several Polish tanks also took part in repulsing the German attacks on Warsaw on 9th and 10th of September 1939.

Photos below show German tanks destroyed on 9th of September in Warsaw along part of Grójecka street, between Częstochowska street and Rokosowska street, next to Winnicka street.

Those tanks were those which managed to break through the second Polish barricade in Grójecka street, but were destroyed before reaching the third barricade in this street:

These concrete tanks which can be seen below were not destroyed by Polish tanks, but - anyway - some Polish tanks participated in the battle of Warsaw and eliminated some German tanks, not in Grójecka street, but somewhere in Warsaw:


















Edited by Domen - 30-Dec-2008 at 10:50
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 18:21

Please add links to the pictures or give source. Else the same shall be deleted.

The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 19:36
Source is given on each picture (www.odkrywca.pl).

Almost all of them (except some) come from the Polish Forum Odkrywca (I am also contributing to this forum):

http://www.odkrywca-online.pl/panzer39-wraki-czesc-czwarta,644359.html

Four threads - "Panzer39 - wrecks - parts: one, second, third and fourth".

Some of them come from the Polish forum dws (I am also contributing a lot to this forum):

http://www.dws.org.pl/index.php

Photos of Orlik come mainly from the Polish short book titled "Karaluchy przeciw Panzerom" (when translated: "Cockroaches versus Panzers") Big smile - I didn't invent such a title on my own...


Edited by Domen - 29-Dec-2008 at 19:44
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 05:38

Please edit the posts and add the source. Thanks.

The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 10:34
Source is added.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 14:01
Orlik's victories (kills) during combat of Pociecha (1., 2. and 3.):


By the way - this map was made by plutonowy podchorąży Roman Edmund Orlik himself, but most probably after the war - so at least several years later.

It is really impressive how damned exact it is, despite it was made so long after that event:

"gęsty młodnik" - subtitle which can be seen in Orlik's map - is exactly the same type of trees as can be seen in the photos of this destroyed Pz-IV ("gęsty młodnik" = "dense young forest").

A forest road which is marked in Orlik's map can also be clearly seen in all of these photos.

More over:







In my opinion Orlik shot at least one long series or maybe even the whole magazine of his 20mm bullets towards this Panzer IV - probably from a very short distance (all of them hit in the same place, more or less).

It is obvious that after receiving at least several succesfull hits, ammunition inside this Panzer IV exploded. It also burnt out, as can be seen both in the photos and in the map made by Orlik himself - and as is also written in the subtitle below the first photo of this wreck which I posted in this thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TheRedBaron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 11:57
I dont think it exploded due to ammo being hit by 20mm rounds.
 
If they came in from the side as you show they more likely hit crew and internal stowage that then led to a fire. It was probably the fire that caused the ammo to explode resulting in the damage seen in the pics above. There is certainly no way 20mm rounds would have caused the damage shown above as it is from an ammo explosion that the armour plate would break away.
 
Nice pics though.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 00:35

they more likely hit crew and internal stowage that then led to a fire. It was probably the fire that caused the ammo to explode resulting in the damage seen in the pics above.


I think that you might be right - most probably.

By the way - most probably another photo of this Panzer IV Ausf B which belonged to Prinz von Ratibor and was destroyed by Roman Orlik near Pociecha (it appeared not a long time ago on Ebay.de and later - from ebay - on Polish forum odkrywca - it is also present on Historical Media internet site, I guess):



And let's take a look once again on the map of that combat made by Roman Orlik himself:



And one more photo of this tank:




Edited by Domen - 05-Feb-2009 at 00:38
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 01:04
I think Panzers will win until the first nuke is dropped, then the Cockroaches will mutate in giant Cockroach tanks and go around eating Tigers and Panthers.

Edited by Paul - 05-Feb-2009 at 01:05
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