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Forum LockedCleopatra!!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cleopatra!!
    Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 12:48
Originally posted by MythTR

I only wanted to open a topic which contains interesting things.
 
I was not waiting racist comments , please don't say to me you are racist after the happens look the sentence from Vorian : " Scientists bullshit as usual, they are still not sure if they found Philips' bones let alone Cleopatra's sister. And what the hell is an african bone? " If I say this ...........
 
I forgot add link
 
 
yes same link.
 


I don't think Vorian did a racist comment. It's just that in this forum we have seen too much b*llshit now and then as he said. The term b*llshit did not reffer to you as a poster, since you're not the one to claim this, but to the new "groundbreaking" discoveries some people announce sometimes.

In other words, don't take it personal. Smile

We do know Cleopatras family line which is the following:

http://genealogy.about.com/library/family_trees/bl_cleopatra.htm




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Post Options Post Options   Quote MythTR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 18:16

An expression is in our language(Turkish) and it says:

Şıracının şahidi bozacı.
 
The witness of / maker or seller of grape must /  is maker or seller of boza
 
(boza is a drink you can search on the internet and you can understand me easily)
 
(Location says everything : Greece Hellas , Makedonya Grc)
 
I won't be online longer, if the administrators want they can remove me, I will find more normal forum, because the plan was here like this
 
Greeks                                
Armenians                             vs Turks.
and other Turcophobes
 
yes it is like this , don't get polemyc with me
 
have a great time on this forum.
 
 
We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 19:34
?
What was that about?
Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 19:52
Originally posted by MythTR

An expression is in our language(Turkish) and it says:

Şıracının şahidi bozacı.
 
The witness of / maker or seller of grape must /  is maker or seller of boza
 
(boza is a drink you can search on the internet and you can understand me easily)
 
 
If we're not careful someone will take that and build a whole new racial relationship theory on the basis of booze being something you drink.
 
Though we all know it's because of the notorious Philadelphia distiller E.G.Booze Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 23:16
Originally posted by MythTR

 
(Location says everything : Greece Hellas , Makedonya Grc)
 
I won't be online longer, if the administrators want they can remove me, I will find more normal forum, because the plan was here like this
 
Greeks                                
Armenians                             vs Turks.
and other Turcophobes
 
yes it is like this , don't get polemyc with me
 
have a great time on this forum.
 


Nobody of the regular Greek or Armenian members in here are turcophobes, nor are the Turkish members of this forum Grecoarmenophobes. In fact we get along well.

Nobody attacked you personaly and i was specifically clear about it, that you shouldn't take Vorians comment as a personal insult against you.

Neither the Greek or the Turkish members are here to cause fights or start insulting each other. Besides, such behaviours lead to a warning and most probably a permanent ban.

I suggest you relax and not take things personally. We're not some 10 feet tall killers with a mustache. You're welcome here no matter nationality.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 12:07
< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">< name="ProgId" ="Word.">< name="Generator" ="Microsoft Word 12">< name="Originator" ="Microsoft Word 12">
I like this site more when it comes to Ptolemaic genealogy (just having it all on one page makes things much easier to see).
As you can see, there is no known Egyptian ancestor. That does not mean in the course of the long dynastic history the offspring of an Egyptian concubine could not be passed as the legitimate child of the queen, but I guess you’ll have to agree that the chances of this having happened are flimsy.
As for the Persian ancestry, that is far better attested, and it all started with Cleopatra I, daughter of the Seleukid king Antiochos III and his wife, queen Laodike III. That’s because the founder of the Seleukid dynasty, Seleukos I Nikator was married to the Persian noblewoman Apame, and therefore his son and heir, Antiochos I, was half-Persian. On the other hand, Laodike was the daughter of the Pontic king Mithradates II, who claimed descent from one of the Seven Wise Persians and the Seleukid princess Laodike (daughter of Antiochos II Theos).
Bottom line: Cleopatra having Egyptian ancestry – extremely flimsy chances. Cleopatra having Persian ancestry – certain, but the genes were “watered-down”.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 12:25
 
 
 
 
According to this link,it's documented Cleopatra married two of her own brothers.
 
Was it a tradition passed down from Greek culture or the Ptolemy Dynasty adopted the indigenous Egyptian royal custom ?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 16:14
Originally posted by pebbles

 
 
 
 
According to this link,it's documented Cleopatra married two of her own brothers.
 
Was it a tradition passed down from Greek culture or the Ptolemy Dynasty adopted the indigenous Egyptian royal custom ?
 
 



The second one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 18:29
Originally posted by pebbles

 
 
 
 
According to this link,it's documented Cleopatra married two of her own brothers.
 
Was it a tradition passed down from Greek culture or the Ptolemy Dynasty adopted the indigenous Egyptian royal custom ?
 
 


It is not something passed from Greek culture. At least i'm not aware something like that being recorded. The closest it can get is Oidepus.

I dunno if it has to do with Egyptian tradition, so i can't answer to the second option.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 20:34
Sibling marriages are recorded in pharaonic history, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Another instance of sibling marriage is that of Cambyses, so the Macedonian houses may have followed an Achaemenid, rather than a pharaonic model. In favour of this pleads the fact that other Hellenistic houses - which had no need to imitate the pharaohs, but gained quite a lot from immitating the Achaemenids - also adopted sibling marriages: the Seleukids and the Mithradatids.

The first instance of brother-sister marriage in the Ptolemaic house occurs in the second generation, with Ptolemaios II, surnamed "Philadelphos" (sister-lover). It's interesting that Theocritos, in his Idyll 17, tries hard to find a Greek precedent for such a love relation and finds none other than that between Zeus and Hera.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 21:16
Interresting. I did not know that Theocritos analysed that phenomenon.

Now the question is if Cleopatra was in love with her brother or if it was just a thing to do? I mean com'on...It aint an easy thing to do.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2009 at 01:14
There have been some studies made by anthropologists and these show humans develop a certain "neutralisation" syndrome towards their siblings - that is brothers and sisters brought up together would no longer find each other sexually attractive.

Problem with the ancient royal courts is that siblings seldom grew up together. Arsinoe II, for example, the one who would marry Ptolemaios II, was shipped off to Thrace to marry Lysimachos when she was quite young (about 15). Even children who grew up at the same court might not have spent too much time together, so the neutralisation might not have had time to develop. Between Ptolemaios II and his sister, Arsinoe II there seemed to be some serious attraction going on (well, at least from Ptolemy to his sister...)

Now, if you add to that the doctrine that these kids were fed, namely that they were by birth above human status, being born of divine ancestors, you get an idea that they would search for suitable mates. And who fitted the bill better than a sibling?

In time, sibling marriages became quite common, although love wasn't always present, and in some cases the opposite was true.

The interesting thing is that sibling marriages diffused from the royal court towards the common people. In the Roman times, a significant minority of all the marriages recorded papyrologically are of this type. Historians explain the process as an economic measure, whereby the property would remain within the family (the dowry of the daughter would go to the son). Cheap bastards ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2009 at 04:33
you guys are forgetting the statues of cleopatra. they look nothing like black
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2009 at 04:40
And people forget that in the Alexandrian society Greeks were at the top, Jews and other foreigners at the Middle, and Egyptians below I expect Nubians and others would be among the very bottom.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2009 at 08:23
Originally posted by khshayathiya

 
Sibling marriages are recorded in pharaonic history, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Another instance of sibling marriage is that of Cambyses, so the Macedonian houses may have followed an Achaemenid, rather than a pharaonic model.
 
In favour of this pleads the fact that other Hellenistic houses - which had no need to imitate the pharaohs, but gained quite a lot from imitating the Achaemenids - also adopted sibling marriages: the Seleukids and the Mithradatids.

It's interesting that Theocritos, in his Idyll 17, tries hard to find a Greek precedent for such a love relation and finds none other than that between Zeus and Hera.
 

 
 
Is there a documented source supports Achaemenid model not based off of Greek mythology ?
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2009 at 08:37
Originally posted by pinguin

And people forget that in the Alexandrian society Greeks were at the top, Jews and other foreigners at the Middle, and Egyptians below I expect Nubians and others would be among the very bottom.
 
 
I wouldn't directly assume that Nubians would be at the very bottom.
This concept that "Black Africans at the bottom of society" is a very social phenomenon of the recent centuries largely to do with the slave trade.
 
Alexandrian society placed Greeks-Macedonians at the top, Mercenaries in the middle, and natives at the bottom.
the "Mercenaries" could be of any origin; Jewish, other Semetic, Lybian, or Nubian.
So if a Nubian had integrated into Alexandrian society as a soldier, then he'd be above the native Egyptians.
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2009 at 09:20
Is there a documented source supports Achaemenid model not based off of Greek mythology ?


If you mean a literary or epigraphical document stating "I, Ptolemy, marry my sister in order to look like the Achaemenid Cambyses and not like Zeus", then obviously not. It's just a matter of looking at the larger picture (which features Seleukids, Mithradatids, Commagenian Orintids and others, besides the Ptolemies) and asking what they have in common. And that element is the Achaemenid ancestry (or presumed ancestry), less than a desire to emulate the supreme god of the Greek pantheon.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mayra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2009 at 23:19
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