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Forum Lockedchina&demorcracy

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    Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 20:46
how would you suppose China would have been if the Tiananmen square event had turn out to be successful?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 21:23

Democracy is worth a billion dollars.

Sooner or later China will have to become democratic. A free market economy can't be driven by a dictatorship at all. Is not possible to sustain in the long term, particularly if citizens become wealthier.

If China doesn't resolve that conflict peacefully, lot of problems could be seen in the horizon

(Tiananmen's statue of liberty)
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 15:01
have you ever concerned that China might follow the old path of USSR where the government is still running by the former communists,  so even if China become democratic and communist regime was crashed, they would still sun the government under the communist though and using the communist way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 16:05
China should embrace democracy, but at a much more gradual way. 
 
The Russians had a good idea, just the timing was off.
 
Compare the former USSR to todays Russia, things look pretty much the same.  You critize Putin, you get knock out.  Same old ....
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 16:12
Also, I think China would be worse if the Tiananmen protest had achieve its goal.  China was not ready for democracy.  I think they are much more prepared for democracy presently.
 
However, I am not supporting the actions the government took to put down the protest.  Absolutely wrong and those who gave the orders should be put to trial.  Horrible dark chapter in Chinese history.
 
Like to state that Zhao Ziyang should be honored as a national hero for is display of restraint with the students.  Goes to show that no good deed goes unpunished.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 16:42
Democracy, Communism, theocracy, dictatorship... whatever you want to call it. If the powerful and influential men of China decides to work together to make China a better place to live rather than fight each other for personal gain... China would benefit, regardless of what type of government they have. But I agree that deomocracy is the best solution. Of course, China must not make the same mistake as USSR did. Make it gradual. Improve education so that people won't fall for political propaganda too easily. Stop the corruption. This would be very gradual. I suppose communism should change to socialism, then gradually to democracy.
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 17:04
Very true!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easternknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 17:32
Worse Short-Term
Better Long-Term
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 17:47
Maju is both knowledgeable and unbiased, i remember he once said that democracy is not suitable to present China. Though some level of democratic practice should be incorporated into political structure to counter-balance corruptions etc. I agree.
 
Regarding "Tian an men incident", Lee kuan yew said in his memoir its necessary to put down such movement, but China had no rubber bullets.
I couldnt agree more. He also make assessment on "China&democracy" issue, his comments are beneficial to read.
 
The quality of those student leaders are seriously questionable, Bailing were crying about the blood of the people spilled by the military reached  knee level, only brainless morons would believe such lie.
 
Wuerkaixi, another student leader, when a western made documentary asked him about why he participated in "Tian an men incident", he replied"because we want to have a pair of Nike shoes." Let this kind of person to run huge country like China?
 
Wangdan, he was exposed of have link to Taiwan.
 
I think China would become more than worse, had those kind of men achieved their goal.
 
BTW, here is an interesting book talking about adopting democracy
 
"World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability "
 
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 01-Mar-2007 at 18:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 17:56

I see your point. China, having billions of people mostly uneducated, would not be able to improve China with democratic government. Many are uneducated and easily manipulated for the personal gain of the high class people. And that's assuming that the election would not be corrupted, and I don't know if that could happen in China. UN or other Western power would not be able to control the election so that it's fair (Assuming that Western power have honest and true intention towards China)

What China need is a strong and honest dictator who wants beneficial change in China.
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 20:14
Chinese people, like any other people in the world, deserves a democratic government.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 21:25

In the long run, yes. But immediately imposing democracy does not work, as we already have seen in Kerensky's Provisional Government in Russia after Tsat Nicholas resigned.

Imagine bunch of kids from elementry schools. The principle wanted to see how the classes are going by sending the surveys. Being uneducated, and not being able to understand the politics and their future in the long run, all the innocent kids voted that their teacher was the best in exchange for candies.
 
I am not saying that Chinese are bunch of kids, but I am saying that majority of the Chinese population just got out of the Cultural Revolution. Only few educated students protested against the government for democratic rights, and we know what happened when they rebelled. How can we encourage democracy, when majority of the people are not capable of making decent decisions? Many still believe in Chinese propaganda...
 
You do not immediately heal a sick man by feeding regular food. You give them chicken soup and hot drinks. Stuffing them with hard and healthy food and powerful medicine would just make the patient even worse. I do believe that China deserves democracy... but the time is not right.
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 10:32
you have a point there pakau, the country would be a mass if demorcracy fail to work
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 11:44
Pekau has made some good points.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 01:51

As a youngster, I even shouted anti-communist slogans like "down with communist!" on the streets of Beijing as i was "inspired" by those "adults" who were at it. So technically i was part of "the democratic movement".

Does it mean i understand what is a democracy? I dont even  fully know why "communist should be brought down"at the time, and i didnt bother to think for a second what would be to consequence, or what ought to be the substitution.

In a sense, Pekau is right, we were "bunch of kids", i certainly was in both physical and mental sense. May be this explains why "leader" like Wuerkaixi did it because he simply wanted to have "a pair of Nike shoes".
Like we dont have Nike shoes to wear in today's China even its still under "dictatorship"? Is that what "democracy" is all about for him?

And is that kind of quality our "leader" had which i technically supported?  I have no idea about either them or their level of understanding on "democracy" when i shouted out anti-communist(or anti-government) slogans on 1989 Beijing streets but my action somehow can be interpreted as "democratic movement"? and much less to say about unpredictable aftermath of such "democratic movement". Perhaps the book "World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability" will shed some light on it.

Which is different from saying that China shouldnt adopt some level of democracy at some point. But years have passed since 1989, as my level of knowledge has increased, i now have serious doubt about this "democratic movement" which i was technically "part of".

History or historical events can be investigated from many different angles, one should treat it as a solid rather than a plane, a solid has many aspects in which some are inevitably "opposite" to each other, whereas a plane has only one aspect, which inevitably limited its scope.

It doesnt matter which option one choose for this poll, one thing is centain that we can not be certain about the outcome of 1989 incident had it succeeded, whether the consequence would be "good" or "bad" to me is not the immediate focus, but what would be compensated for such "good" or "bad"? In other words, since we can not be certain such movement will not bring some "negative" consequence to China, then we can not afford to disregard the "opposite" effect of such "democratic movement", despite it is supposedly a movement for a "better" China. Like i said treat it as a solid, rather than just a plane.

That being said, someone mentioned the example of "USSR's road to democracy", what was sacrificed? It disintegrated territorially. There are already "separatist"factions within China's ethnic divison, can we be certain "China's road to democracy", 1989 incident will not provide the circumstance for similar territorial disintegration as what USSR experienced?

Indeed can we just simply channel "democracy" into a narrow understanding?  For instance, one could consider Taiwanese president Chen shui bian and his party's success as a symbol of Taiwan's "democratic success", but what is compensated for? the push for independence from China, and the possibility of war. Moreover, who started such "democratic progress"? Li Deng Hui who is also a "separatist". The KMT may be once sworn enemy to the Communsits, but they will not allow Taiwan to be separated from China as would the Communists. But Li was president of KMT, why wouldnt he value what the party's founder Dr Sun valued, an united China? why would he do something which is completely contradictory to the party's usual stance? He deceived not just Jiang jing guo but subsequently also the KMT, for what, "a better and democratic Taiwan"? maybe, but it also simultaneously means he diminished nationalist influence and created the opportunity for Chen's DPP to rule, which inevitably leads to the issue on "independence and war". The question is, are we willing to sacrifice territorial sovereignty for "democracy"?

Thats just to say a little about "democracy is not that simple".



Edited by The Charioteer - 03-Mar-2007 at 01:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 06:43
i voted no because the there isn't a time line provided.

Democracy gets harder to work the larger the country. I'm not sure India is better off because its a democracy. For instance, they cant enforce a one child policy, even if they might actually need it to combat poverty.

I remember sun-yat-sen wanted to aim for democracy in a number of (4?) stages, knowing full well that the population wasn't ready for it at the outset. i think his aims and the way to get there, is still very much relevant and good starting point. I also think a USSR repeat in the PRC would be catastrophic


Edited by Leonidas - 03-Mar-2007 at 06:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 12:11
Leonidas,
 
Very true about the size of the country.  With a smaller country, like Japan or S. Korea, democracy is wonderful.  With larger countries like India, Russia, it has a negative effect.
 
Basically, in India (from what I see) everybody has a say in something because they have a vested interest.  There are conflicting views on how things should be done, thus causing nothing to be done.
 
In the case of Russia, the biggest problem is corruption.
 
China situation is slightly different from the two but roughly the same.  China should not embrace full democracy now, but they have to take a much toughter stance on corruption.  If left unchecked, they will have a very serious problem.  I think corruption is even a greater threat to China and proverty (even though corrpution eventually leads to proverty), and pollution (another byproduct of corruption).  Basically they have to put more "teeth" in their rule of law.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 04:58
I agree, corruption is a big issue in china. The rule of law (and the laws themselves) are a vital area that china should fix as a first stage before any other progress. Economics is another important area, but that cant be truly sustainable until the rule of law is strong itself. it seems they have made economics the first priority before all else which may come back to hurt later on.

I hear that India is also effected by corruption in a big way.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 06:35

Population is not a big deal. It just matters because majority of the population is not educated enough to be able to make right decisions. And it can't be helped. They are already living in a tough life, and if corruption means that they could get extra penny or two... they would do it. Their future can wait. They need to survive...

     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 12:32
Pekau,
 
I respectfully disagree. When you have a large population, that requires an established infrastructure (schools, water treatment and water access, health care, transportation services, food (or food assistance program), elderly care, etc....) That puts a strain on the fiscal budget of a particular country.
 
I hate that one child policy that China has.  However, China has to swallow that bitter pill.  If not for that policy, I do not believe that China's economic growth would have materialized.  I would revise that policy to state that if your first born is a girl, you are entitled to have another.  If you have a boy, you are not entitled.  I think that would address the gender inbalance in China. 
 
With a smaller country, it is easier. 
 
Bad analogy.  It is easier to clean a one bedroom apartment vs a three floor colonial house. 
 
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