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Forum LockedCaucasian Abania - Ancestors of Azeris?

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    Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 18:13
Firstly, it should not be confused with Albans in Balkan. Its just similiar names, Albania meant "land of White Mountains" in old Greek.

What do u think? Cucasian Albania was a ancient (not that ancient, just before Turkic invasions into Azerbaijan) Native North-East Caucasian kingdom with Christian religion that resided in what is now Republic of Azerbaijan.

Today, its beleived that Azeris are partly from Caucasian Albania. What do u guys think?

Direct decendets of Caucasian Albanias still live in Central parts of Azerbaijan, the people are called Udi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

It is believed that during the ancient and medieval eras parts of the population of Caucasian Albanian were assimilated and might have played a role in the ethnogenesis of the Azerbaijanis, the Armenians of the Nagorno-Karabakh, the Georgians of Kakhetia, the Laks, the Lezgins and the Tsakhurs of Daghestan







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 21:08
Yes, I believe that is true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 22:33
Albania does not mean "land of White Mountains" in Greek, neither old nor modern. In Greek the adjective for "white" is "leukos, -e, -on" and the noun for "mountain" is "oros, oreos". The similarity with the Latin word "albus, -a, -um" meaning "{dull} white" is quite fortuitous, I should think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 23:01
Albania's ethymology seems to have Latin origins.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 23:03
I m not sure but it has something to do with Mountain as far as i have heard. But i m not sure if its Latin or Greek.

White Mountains are referred to Caucasus Mountains, as Caucasus Mountains are always snow capped, so it makes sense. Its just the way i have heard, but anyway. Its not importnant what Albania means.





Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 20-Apr-2009 at 23:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 23:05
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Yes, I believe that is true.


Do you have any opnion on this?

I would like to hear from others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 00:17
Its not known who the Caucasian Albanians were, they were a tribal confederation of various tribes from various groups.

Everybody has a variety of ancestors if you go back far enough, we could say people in Turkey are ancestors of Hitites, that Persians are ancestors of Elamites, that Arabs are ancestors of Spanish, however, none of these ancestors really count for anything today among these nations, there is hardly anything in common.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 00:21
Bulldog, it is actually clear what Kavkaz Albans was. The direct remnants of CAucasian Albans still live in Azerbaijan, named Udis, in Central parts of Azerbaijan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udi_people

The Udi language belongs to the Nakho-Dagestanian group of the Caucasian languages.

So we can say that Caucasian Albans were a North-East Caucasian group.

Perhaps Southern Dagestan and Dagestani peopls of North Azerbaijan has more right to claim them than us, but stilll. They are the common ancestors of Southern Dagestan and Azerbaijan Republic.




Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 21-Apr-2009 at 00:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 01:00
The Caucasian Albanians are described in history as being made up of 26 tribes each who had their own language and Kings. The Udi may have been one of those tribes who survived and preserved their language?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 02:40
Bulldog, are you suggesting that Caucasian Albanians just vanished from the face of the Earth without any trace or that all of them were just massacred without mercy by Oghuz Turks?
 
Apparently, they just melted with Oghuz in a new Azeri ethnicity and this is where Caucasian element in Azeri culture comes from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 03:44
If Udi's are Caucasian Albanians then they didn't vanish, Udi is related to Lezgi so the Lezgic languages may be closest living languages to Caucasian Albanian, however, its just an assumption and the historical sources tell us that they spoke many languages so who knows.

I don't look at nations or ethnic groups from a "racial" point of view, so descendants thousands of years ago arn't important if you don't share their language, identity or have some form of continuity. If we go back far enough we all are related anyway, so this clearly doesn't have as large an impact on identity as some make out.

For example, Russians can claim Mongols, Turks or Uralic peoples as their ancestors but it doesn't really mean much as Russians don't speak an Altaic or Uralic language and don't consider themselves have an identity from these groups however, some Russians if we go back far enough could have descendants from these groups of people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 05:55

Well, since Albanians were Caucasian people and modern Azeris also belong to Caucasian cultural realm the cultural continuity is obvious.

Of course, Azeris speak Turkish language which may be even the most important factor of their identity, but this is not the only factor of it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 13:47
To say Caucasian culture stems from Caucasian Albanians is an assumption as we don't really know their culture. The Caucasus are very multi-cultural, there are Caucasians, Russians, Iranic, Turkic even Mongols practicing Buddhism and most these people have been in the region for at least a millenia. For example the Karachay are as Caucasian as anyone else in the region however they are arn't an ethnic Caucasian group.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 14:35
Well. Neither Russians nor Kalmyks (which I suppose you meant as Mongolian people) follow Caucasian customs or are considered culturally "Caucasians."
 
As for Karachay, they, aparently, have also mixed with native Caucasian people and culturally, they are Caucasians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 18:50
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Well, since Albanians were Caucasian people and modern Azeris also belong to Caucasian cultural realm the cultural continuity is obvious.



culture has more to do with location than with ethnical heritage. for example Kuban & Terek Cossacks who wore the Cherkesska which was widely worn by all kinds of ethnicities of the Balkans even Georgians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 20:04
Cossacks have a very different culture from Caucasians. Cherkesska, burka, shashka etc. are indeed infulence of Caucasus, but it doesn't make Cossacks culturally "Caucasians" even for a small degree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 20:10
And everything I'm saying it's very easy to check. Just ask an Azeri whether he considers himself a Caucasian. He would proudly say "yes."
 
You can never expect such an answer from a Cossack, to say the least from a Kalmyk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 20:18
Kalmyks aren't Caucasian anyways, they live considerably north of it, same can be said about Kuban Cossacks but Terek Cossacks are close enough. but the point is they adopted fashion and weaponry from the Caucasus that means they were culturally influenced by it. fashion is part of the culture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 20:23
Even Don Cossacks were influenced by this fashion, but these only are fashions and outside influences, while Azeri are in Caucasian cultural realm.
 
Terek Cossacks aren't Caucasians period
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 20:35
they were influenced by the Caucasian cultural sphere, period. you can't just say they weren't because you don't like it, it's a fact. 
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