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bod ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 25-Apr-2009 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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I'm afraid I did not state my argument very clearly (I will improve ![]() At the end of the day Beowulf is fiction and your own interpretation is what matters, it is not like we can give them a DNA test like a Neanderthal.
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bod ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 25-Apr-2009 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Other tales (not old English) such as hansel and Gretal and Jack and the Beanstalk also use cannibals that are almost human like Grendal, maybe Witches and Giants eating people is a little easier to understand.
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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Nicely put.
I think however that King John's interest is in the interpretation placed on cannibalism by the various authors and readers, and their reactions to it.
I can throw in another category of cannibalism: the involuntary sort, such as occurs in Shakespeare's Titus Anndronicus.
Here Titus inflicts cannibalism on the object of his revenge.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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bod ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 25-Apr-2009 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Yuck!!! A bit like Sweeny Tod |
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Cyrus Shahmiri ![]() Tsar ![]() ![]() King of Kings Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Iran Status: Offline Points: 3963 |
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I am talking about changing, a cannibal is a noun, not an adjective, that is not a cannibal-man, when we say dew-worm, silk-worm, bag-worm, ... it is clear that we are talking about worms but this is different when we say butterfly, however that is originally a worm too.
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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Dew-worms are worms, and they stay worms. Bagworms and silkworms aren't worms, they are caterpillars, members of species that change form in their lifetime, just as a fertilised human ovum becomes a foetus, a foetus becomes a baby and a baby becomes an adult, though the change of form in the last process isn't as drastic in a mammal.
Simple rule: caterpillars have legs; worms don't.
And butterflies aren't ever worms either. They're butterflies as larvae, just as bagworms and silkworms are the larvae of moths.
When an animal eats its own species it doesn't even change shape, let alone change species.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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King John ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 01-Dec-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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Cyrus, a cannibal is defined as:
Edited by King John - 10-May-2009 at 18:17 |
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Cyrus Shahmiri ![]() Tsar ![]() ![]() King of Kings Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Iran Status: Offline Points: 3963 |
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A person who just eats the flesh of another person is not called a cannibal, we don't call people who had to do it in the famine period and other tragic events, cannibals, do we? Cannibals especially in the Indo-European cultures have also other characteristics, they couldn't be good persons, is it even possible that someone who kills another person to eats his flesh, is considered as a good person? A cannibal was not only a man-eater but also a cruel, tyrant, destroyer, ... so he couldn't be a regular human being.
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King John ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 01-Dec-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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By the way let's also not forget the ritual cannibalism that takes place in certain Christian rights like eating the host and drinking the sacred wine. In this part of the Catholic service the priest says that the host represents the body of Christ and the wine the blood. How can one partake in this right and be a bad person? This is not a perfect analogy. I just want to point out that being a cannibal requires one to be a member of the species which you eat. If a man eats another then that man is a cannibal, end of story. Being described as cruel, a tyrant, or destroyer does not make a person no longer human; if so than many rulers of the modern world and the pre-modern world would no longer be human. Keep in mind that these same rulers were not called cannibals. These terms are not mutually exclusive with cannibalism. The terms you use to describe cannibals are terms of perspective, if the enemy writes about a ruler and labels him cruel, a tyrant, or a destroyer, that doesn't mean that he actually was since there is certainly going to be a population that thinks his actions were neither cruel, tyrannical, or destructive.
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Cyrus Shahmiri ![]() Tsar ![]() ![]() King of Kings Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Iran Status: Offline Points: 3963 |
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I don't know you want to discuss about cannibal just as a word which means a person who eats the flesh of other human beings or a mythical creature in the Old English and other texts, do you think Grendel reverted to cannibalism to survive? There are certainly some differences between forced or optional behaviors, don't you think so?
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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There are enforced cannibalism and optional cannibalism, of course. But they're still cannibalism.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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King John ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 01-Dec-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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*Edit: By the way, there is no mythical creature in Old English texts that is named cannibal, the word is used to describe certain actions (and not in the text). Grendel is a creature that is described in many ways, some very similar to the ways in which Beowulf himself is described. These descriptions, however, differ in one way, Grendel is described as devouring the flesh of men; a description that is never used for Beowulf. I'm interested in discussing cannibalism in literature, however, saying that a cannibal is no longer human (as you have said) flies in the face of the definition. The point in defining the word was to show you that even though cannibalism carries certain traits in literature, it doesn't mean that a person exhibiting those traits is no longer human. Edited by King John - 12-May-2009 at 16:50 |
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bod ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 25-Apr-2009 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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It is described in Beowulf how Grendel cannibalises the people who sleep in the hall because he hates them they disturb his peace. "Then the powerful Demon who abode in darkness could hardly for a while endure to hear every day the mirth, loud in the hall;" It is allso stated that people who left the hall to sleep were safe. "Then was it easy to find a man who sought rest for himself elsewhere....... He who afterwards kept himself farther and safer was the one who escaped the fiend!" He does not cannibalise to feed a physical hunger, his attention is entirely focused on the hall, so is his mothers in her revenge. The hall is the center of the Kings power, I guess Grendels attack on this building must be symbolic in some way.
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