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Forum LockedByzance after Byzance

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    Posted: 22-May-2006 at 20:57
Hi,

First I gonna talk about me: part of my family is Greek Corsican. In 1663, fleeing the Turks, 800 Greeks arrive in Paomia in the north of Ajaccio the capital of the Genoese ruled island. Nowadays there are still two churches in the village of Cargèse one catholic and the other one of greek ryth.

So I come with my question: what happen of Byzance after Byzance. I mean what were the cultural consequencies of the fall of Constantinople?

M.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2006 at 08:51
Its a really big and also great discussionSmile

Also,the story of those people of Greek ancestry is real interesting.
They fled from Mani,a harsh peninsula in Southern Peloponese.
I ll try to find some evidence about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 08:25
I've heard that Napoleon is partially,from his mother's side probably, i really cannot remember, originated from Mani.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 08:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 22:00
Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:

So I come with my question: what happen of Byzance after Byzance. I mean what were the cultural consequencies of the fall of Constantinople?
 
The diaspora of Greek refugees from Constantinople and its environs is interesting.  It started in the 14th century and continued on through the fall of the City in 1453.  Many of the Empire's intellectuals and artists fled to Italy and became teachers, others went as far as France and England.
 
Jonathan Harris has written about Byzantine refugees in late Byzantium and post-Byzantium.  He brings up an interesting incident in London, where there was a growing Greek community, where some specialized workers set up shop.  They were expert gold-thread weavers and they were quite adept at making Damascene cloth, which was interwoven with the gold thread.  This was a commodity primarily from the East, so they were quite a novelty in London!
 
Jonathan Harris, "Two Byzantine Craftsmen in Fifteenth Century London." Journal of Medieval History 21 (1995): 387-403
 


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 15-Jun-2006 at 22:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 04:38
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

 
The diaspora of Greek refugees from Constantinople and its environs is interesting.  It started in the 14th century and continued on through the fall of the City in 1453.  Many of the Empire's intellectuals and artists fled to Italy and became teachers, others went as far as France and England.
 
Jonathan Harris has written about Byzantine refugees in late Byzantium and post-Byzantium.  He brings up an interesting incident in London, where there was a growing Greek community, where some specialized workers set up shop.  They were expert gold-thread weavers and they were quite adept at making Damascene cloth, which was interwoven with the gold thread.  This was a commodity primarily from the East, so they were quite a novelty in London! 
 
 
Would like to mention that a certain Theodore Palaiologos. d. 1636, is buried in a small village in Cornwall, SW England.
In 1962 Queen Elisabeth and her husband Prince Philip, partly of Greek origin,  came to visit the grave, and Prince Philip recognised the Byzantine as one of his ancestors.
Apparently the good Theodore claimed to be the descendant of John, son of Thomas Palaiologos ( Despot of Morea till 1460 and heir to the Byzantine throne), which is a tiny bit confusing, as Thomas didn't have a son called John.
Thus, the claims that Theodore was member of the Imperial Palaiologoi are somewhat disputed, he might have a scion of one of the lesser branches.
Theodore had a grand-son called Theodorius who died in England in 1693, leaving a daughter whose further fate is unknown, and thus the English branch of the Palaiologoi disappears into mystery.


Edited by Komnenos - 16-Jun-2006 at 04:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 19:42
Originally posted by Komnenos Komnenos wrote:

Would like to mention that a certain Theodore Palaiologos. d. 1636, is buried in a small village in Cornwall, SW England.
In 1962 Queen Elisabeth and her husband Prince Philip, partly of Greek origin,  came to visit the grave, and Prince Philip recognised the Byzantine as one of his ancestors.
Apparently the good Theodore claimed to be the descendant of John, son of Thomas Palaiologos ( Despot of Morea till 1460 and heir to the Byzantine throne), which is a tiny bit confusing, as Thomas didn't have a son called John.
Thus, the claims that Theodore was member of the Imperial Palaiologoi are somewhat disputed, he might have a scion of one of the lesser branches.
Theodore had a grand-son called Theodorius who died in England in 1693, leaving a daughter whose further fate is unknown, and thus the English branch of the Palaiologoi disappears into mystery.
 
Thanks for mentioning this!  Yes, I read about this in Donald Nicol's Immortal Emperor.  I think he includes a picture of Theodore's gravestone too. 
 
It is interesting, and a bit sad, to see where all the surviving members of the imperial house of Palaiologos ended up.  I think it was Thomas who ended up penniless and married a woman of ill repute in Rome.  The Pope felt sorry for him and made him the commander of the Swiss guard with a pension.  Constantine XI's niece Sophia married the Czar of Russia; she supposedly brought Byzantine court ceremonials back into use in the Russian court.  One of the last survivors of the imperial line, according to Nicol, moved to the Bahamas and died there!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2006 at 21:10
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

I think it was Thomas who ended up penniless and married a woman of ill repute in Rome.
 
In checking Nicol's account, I saw that it was Thomas' son Andrew (Constantine XI's nephew), not Thomas Palaiologos himself, who ended up in Rome and in the care of the Pope's charity.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 16:35
Hmm, didn't someone of the Byzantine princes (most preferrably a brother of Constantine XI) go to European states and try to gather an army to retake Constantinople?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 13:09
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Hmm, didn't someone of the Byzantine princes (most preferrably a brother of Constantine XI) go to European states and try to gather an army to retake Constantinople?
 
Several late Byzantine emperors went in person to the West to try and gain military aid against the Ottomans.  Some of their efforts were quite remarkable, others were pitiful and sad. 
 
For example, John V Palaiologos (1332-1391) went to the court of the king of Hungary, west to England, and finally ended up in Venice at the end of his tour.  Because of the bad political situation at home and the fact that civil war (of which John V was a part) had bankrupt Byzantium, he ran out of money to pay for his lodging and was imprisoned by the Venetians!  His son Manuel (future emperor) had to come and bail him out!
 
Manuel II Palaiologos (1350-1425) improved things a bit and was more focused on reforming the military, which he did somewhat despite the terrible condition of the Empire.  He travelled as far as England and France in search of aid but had to return because of the Ottoman siege of 1402.  Of course all the West offered was empty promises.
 
John VIII Palaiologos (1425-1448) went to Ferrara and Florence with the Patriarch Joseph II and a Greek delegation to attend the council of Florence.  It was a last desparate attempt to gain aid using church union as a bargaining tool.  And predictably the Pope and the West were willing to stand by and watch Byzantium be destroyed one final time.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 16:38
Maybe they didn't watch but more thought that it CAN'T fall into the hands of infidels...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 18:04
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Maybe they didn't watch but more thought that it CAN'T fall into the hands of infidels...
 
Well, yes, I am sure they "conveniently" allowed the legendary awe of Constantinople and Byzantium to lull them into thinking that it would not fall. 
 
But in reality, the only thing the popes cared about was church union.  If the Byzantine "schismatics" would not re-enter the fold of the Roman Church than it was God's will that Byzantium fall.  The thing is, at least at the very top of society, the emperor (John VIII and Constantine XI) and a core group of pro-Roman clergy and officials, the Byzantines did accept union and had the Pope's name commended in the liturgy.  The general Byzantine populace and much of monastic community rejected it and there was no way for the emperor to impose it on them.
 
This was not enough for the popes.  The rest of Western Europe were busy with their own internecine struggles and viewed Byzantium through a Romantic lense.  They did not want to face the harsh reality of helping Byzantium with resources and manpower. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 18:21
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

But in reality, the only thing the popes cared about was church union. 
 
Oh, I remember these things. I read about the mperors of Byzance and it was terrible. One Emperor chose the Union of Churces to get Western help, another separated these two to get support in home.. indeed, they fought more with each other than their enemies.
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