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Forum LockedBosnia and Herzegovina transformed!

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    Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 18:03
The leaders of the three peoples (Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats) are negotiating on the change of the country. The second meeting has just been finished, in the Serb capital (Banja Luka), the first was in the Bosniac (Sarajevo). The last remains to be done is ratification in the Croat home (Mostar)

Territorial integrity and sovereignty of the state of BH will be reaffirmed, Brcko's status will be solved as belonging to all four entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The population census will be held in 2011, and central authority will slightly strengthen in several fields (taking over from the international community, whose office will also be reformed, the one that rules BH practically singlehandedly).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 18:17
Without the end of RS there is no progress. As it stands RS will not be compromised as Dodik wants. I am still as cynical of this as ever.

There will be no transformation until the central government can operate as one without any "entities" within its own territory.

B92 has the story on this.
Originally posted by B92 B92 wrote:


“In my opinion, these regions will be formed according to geographical, historical and economic principles, that will not respect entity lines,” Tihić said.


If so... then only 2 regions shall remain. Bosna/&/ Hercegovina. Those are the only two historic central regions. Bosnian Krajina is a sub-region of Bosnia, and etc... Without this happening I don't see any progress either. This is the same powersharing b.s. that ended the war with no clear end or agreement.



Originally posted by B92 B92 wrote:


Mr Siladjzic of the Party for BiH:


“So, the Republic of Srpska (RS) remains uncompromised. So, the entities or regions refer to the Federation. That means that there will be an entity with a Croatian majority, the Sava basin will remain within the RS, and we will have a Sarajevo district and the Bosniaks crammed into the Tuzla, Zenica and Bihać ghettos, enclaves, or whatever you want to call them,” Silajdžić said.


Sadly I have to agree with him. That is what the Dayton farce created and this reinforces. With no clear central authority and one unified state without meddling by localized interests there cannot be a real future. There hasn't been one since 92 practically.




Edited by es_bih - 27-Jan-2009 at 18:23

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 18:29
What matters is that the popular representatives are about to agree - elected by the people. This is not a peace treaty, but an agreement of the three peoples.

These are the claims so far:

BOSNIACS: four entities on geographical and historical principles, with capitals in Banja Luka, Tuzla, Sarajevo and Mostar

SERBS: Milorad Dodik claims that a whole entity like the present Republic of Srbska will remain

CROATS: Croats will gain an entity of their own

If we combine all three perceived views into one, the view is slightly appearing.

Only the Croats seem to be satisfied. Their opposition finds nothing wrong, whereas the Serb opposition accuses Dodik for having jeopardized RS's integrity and independence and destroyed the only thing that guarantees its existance without any possibility of its abolition (the Dayton Accords, which will henceforth be irrelevant to BH). On the other hand, the Bosniac opposition accuses for craving to Croat and Serb demands and further dividing - because in effect, the Federation will be dissolved to satisfy ethnic lines, caused by minorization of the Croat populace.

There will be no transformation until the central government can operate as one without any "entities" within its own territory.

What, like Belarus - no local self-management?


Edited by Yugoslav - 27-Jan-2009 at 18:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 18:47
Croats do not need an entity of their own. How about we give an entity to every street corner in Bosnia and turn the whole freaking country into a million nantostates. There is no reason for this, but powersharing politics as usual again. The people that gained from the war want their stake for at least their run in the limelight.

RS remaining is counter productive. FBiH remaining is counter productive.

Now you will need to cross 100, 000 checkpoints instead of 3.

I want Bosnia to be managed by the central government as the representative of the people like here in the USA. Cantonal rights should be affirmed, but limited. Schools, public works, the Police, the Armed forces, etc... all need to and have to be run by one central government that can make decisions and do government duties and business without squablling by each powerplayer's side. Tihic has gained a nice spot after Izetbegovic died, starting to look like him, too. He wants his puppetry show so he doesn't loose ground as do the other 2 thieves.

Well now we shall have a entity of Bosnian Jews as well. Heck !!! They deserve one, the other 3 religious groups have them why not them? And the Roma as well.

I am sorry but I am not a cynic for no reason. Nothing good will come out of this until the country's soverignty is confirmed, and that hasn't happenned since 1992.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 18:49
Federation dissolved but RS not, Fed represents 65% of the population wheres RS supports 35%. Great news truly.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 18:56
es_bih, nothing is finished yet. Only Bosniac and Serb meetings were done, the Croat meeting is remaining also, and as seen between these two (we didn't know there'll be 4 entities back then!), things could change. Or better said, new things come up.

And as I've understood, this is by large the work of the international community (the proposals).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 18:58
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

I am sorry but I am not a cynic for no reason. Nothing good will come out of this until the country's soverignty is confirmed, and that hasn't happenned since 1992.


I do not understand.

Hasn't it been confirmed with the Dayton Accords in 1992?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 19:27
If it were there would be no entities within the boundaries of BiH. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 20:28
es_bih, that is possible, but you yourself know under which condition. Bosnia and Herzegovina must give up its sovereignty and be like before. Don't get me wrong, but I do not see another way that will be acceptable to most of BH's population and leadership. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 01:45
And es_bih, there are even talks within the International Community that division of BH into independent states might be an option.

Dutch esteemed politicians have talked with the Bosnian-Herzegovinian political leadership about this, agreeing that at least an option as a final resort - dissolution of BH - must remain open.

As things stand, as every day passes, BH is more and more away from the utopia you yourself stated you'd like to be. And now, even the representatives of all three peoples are starting to find that further divisioning might be a necessary step.

I support any solution, as long as it does not lead to violence, war or further suffering of anyone. Whatever it may be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 02:36
So the Bosnians should give up their historical entity because people don't want to live under a modern civil and centralized government? That seems just rather illogical. Not their fault that people want to live in the Dark Ages. And that is no solution at all. Dissecting will lead to either another war or deprivation or both. This is not the USA this is tiny bloc of 4 million. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 22:06
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

So the Bosnians should give up their historical entity because people don't want to live under a modern civil and centralized government? That seems just rather illogical. Not their fault that people want to live in the Dark Ages. And that is no solution at all. Dissecting will lead to either another war or deprivation or both. This is not the USA this is tiny bloc of 4 million. 


Many Serbs and Croats and even now a lot of Bosniacs would say If we can't live together, then we should try to live separate.

I support BH's sovereignty and territorial integrity by all means, and think that the leaders of all three peoples should work harder, but if it just does not work, I'd have no choice but to concord with a 'dissection' (normally, as long as the three peoples agree).

For instance, in polling, the dissolution of the state is the most popular option. And in general, what kind of a country is that in which majority of the population does not want to live?

I think that international powers are asserting some sort of different views on global policy, since all these wars in Yugoslavia and of course, Kosovo's independence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 01:24
The Prime Minister of the Republic of Srbska Milorad Dodik reveals that transforming Bosnia and Herzegovina into a Federal Republic composed out of Constituent Republics, united in disunity, modelled partially after the bigger SFRY.

The Serb negotiation team notes that it will officially propose this solution at the third and last round of talks.

The Croat leader Miro Jovic has agreed that this is a good and possible option that might be acceptable to the Croat people, noting the successful examples in Europe or the West in general, which should be used as an example for the decentralization and federalization of BH which lasts currently.


Edited by Yugoslav - 16-Feb-2009 at 01:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 00:40
Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:


Territorial integrity and sovereignty of the state of BH will be reaffirmed, Brcko's status will be solved as belonging to all four entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Forgive me my ignorance but what is the fourth entity apart from Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 19:31
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:


Territorial integrity and sovereignty of the state of BH will be reaffirmed, Brcko's status will be solved as belonging to all four entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Forgive me my ignorance but what is the fourth entity apart from Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian?


There is the Federation of BiH (which has districts "controled" for the lack of a better word by Bosniaks or Croats), then the Republic of Serbia entity controlled by Serbs, and then the Brcko district that is administrated independently to the two entities. Technically there are 2 entities and 1 district, but that mixed entity is split in administration in areas where there is a majority. Half of Mostar for example is administrated by Croats the other half by Bosniaks.

What this "new" plan fails to see is that Mostar is just as much a historical Bosniak center as Banja Luka, Sarajevo, Bihac, and quite a few other cities that aren't administrated by the central government. This is why anything but a central government will lead to further stagnation.

A country can't be run by 3/4 interest parties at once, it can in a central Parliament with coalition governments, but not with a central Parliament in existance, and 3/4 entities that are out for their own interests. Perhaps a Federal government sliced up into cantons in the model of the US may work better. Either way it will take the integration of all religious groups (ethnic groups is is really a misnomer) into a single state framework. Dividing never worked nor will ever work. Stubborn politicians that god paid in from the war love these split state ideas because they keep their power structure alive. This modern day feudalism is what has kept the country backward since end of war. Even in the war there were opposing factions within the religious groups. Sarajevo's government had Catholics and Orthodox. There was a Western Bosnian "Bosniak" government independent of Sarajevo, a Mostar Croat, and an early Hercegovina "Bosnian Catholic" movement, too that stopped with assasinations of almost all of the leadership by nationalist Croats. Then there is the Serb entity, too. The UN and Nato have screwed this up even more with that retrograde Dayton peace accord.

These childish and selfish feudalists are the least thing from "nationalist" they use these guises alongside religion to create established bases of support, but they are all out for money and a long staying position of power. Izetbegovic's son opened a mall complex in Banja Luka (him being the Bosniak president's son, and Banja Luka being the new Serb stronghold and captial within Bosnia), it is about local business not about nationalism or religious divides at the core sadly.
The High chancellor should if he wanted to genuinely help cease all government posts, call for new elections get this scum to rot in prison, and create and impose a new constitution unified take any type of idiotic natioanlism or religious divide in education, work, etc.. out of the state's hands and make these idiots realize that this is the only way that they will have a future within the country.

No more fragmentaded micro states will achieve a thing.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 20:09

The problem with BH is similar to Lebanon. A  minority that is decreasing fast that refuses to give up its overrepresentation for a real democratic system because they are the biggest losers from such system.

Plus with such a democratic system Croats and bosniacs who fled because of the war will return and there is a good possibility that they will even outnumber the Serbs there which will make the dreams of scession that some nationalist Serbs of joining Serbia crash.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 21:05
Precisely Al-Jassas. Even now a lot of the nationalistic Serb government fears the returnees' right to representation in key districts, and including the capital of Banja Luka itself. The Croat nationalists want their own entity, which of course is as ridicolous, but not all of the people nor the politicians do want that. It is getting a bit ridicolous becuase it has been over a decade since the war's end. There are a lot of districts, actually the most of BiH where there was certian even mix of religious and "ethnic" affiliations if you will. Another thing... the towns and cities usually had a Bosniak majority or were evently tied with Serbs. So those largerly inaccurate maps we see are misrepresentations of the actual scenario. There was no "real" green, red, or blue zone - for the most part everyone lived simply everywhere. Even now with the war-time population shifts people are returning to former homes, which is upsetting these recent status quos. So such fragmentted governments are not representative of demographics, and are only there to perpetuate the failed Dayton agreements and the crooks that benefit from that. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2009 at 08:37
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Precisely Al-Jassas. Even now a lot of the nationalistic Serb government fears the returnees' right to representation in key districts, and including the capital of Banja Luka itself. The Croat nationalists want their own entity, which of course is as ridicolous, but not all of the people nor the politicians do want that. It is getting a bit ridicolous becuase it has been over a decade since the war's end. There are a lot of districts, actually the most of BiH where there was certian even mix of religious and "ethnic" affiliations if you will. Another thing... the towns and cities usually had a Bosniak majority or were evently tied with Serbs. So those largerly inaccurate maps we see are misrepresentations of the actual scenario. There was no "real" green, red, or blue zone - for the most part everyone lived simply everywhere. Even now with the war-time population shifts people are returning to former homes, which is upsetting these recent status quos. So such fragmentted governments are not representative of demographics, and are only there to perpetuate the failed Dayton agreements and the crooks that benefit from that. 


es_bih, maybe you do not now, but refugees can vote from abroad. That's how you've got strong Serb-majority settlements with only Bosniacs in power. I might use as a parallel the curious case of Novo Brdo - an Albanian-majority Kosovan town with only Serbs in power.

In any case, people, there will be nothing of this. After two successful rounds, in Sarajevo and Banja Luka, the third round, in Mostar, was unsuccessful. The last proposal mentioned was that the country should be designed as "Federal Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina" with three Constituent Republic that would be united through common foreign policies, an army and currency, but the most controversial here was the Serb specific amendment of self-determination, according to which all of the three Republics preserve the right to a referendum for choice of status. All agree however that there is still room for dialogue, as always. I expect that the new Head of OHR will

es_bih, I totally sympathize with you, but the Bosnian war had happened. The eternally-working everyone lived everywhere simply isn't anymore, as the war had created these ethnic lines. And we should also keep in mind that all those problems Yugoslavia had, are melting down into now in BH, and most of them this country had inherited. Perhaps the Croat solution is the best existing proposal - cantonization of the country into a highly decentralized Confederacy of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

es_bih, are you sure imposing a solution is the best solution really? What woul that be?

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

The problem with BH is similar to Lebanon. A  minority that is decreasing fast that refuses to give up its overrepresentation for a real democratic system because they are the biggest losers from such system.


Actually, Al Jassas, what you are referring to is the problem of the Federation of BH - not of the whole state.


Edited by Yugoslav - 25-Feb-2009 at 08:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2009 at 05:28
The National Assembly of the Republic of Srbska has just passed an amendment to the Constitution of the Republic of Srbska. Both entities' capitals are Sarajevo, and so is written in RS' constitution, but the amendment deletes the amendments adopted in 1995-1998, returning it to its original basis as it was in 1992, with Banja Luka the capital of the Serb Republic.


Edited by Yugoslav - 19-Mar-2009 at 05:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 11:15
Croat MPs in the Federal Parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina file to begin discussion on peaceful delimitation of the Federation into Croat-majority and Bosniac-majority Cantons, on the initiative of the Alternative Government of Herzeg-Bosnia NGO. 
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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