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Forum LockedBattle of Jutland and its effects

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2007 at 20:33
well, if the High Seas Fleet woudl have repeated Jütland a few times, then eventually Britain would have run out of ships... I mean the Romans at Cannae also held the battlefield...dead on the ground. how many RN ships are still there, claiming their victory on the bottom of the Northern Sea?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2007 at 22:08
 
Originally posted by Justinian Justinian wrote:

The germans made a strategic withdrawl, as stated they still had the strength to come out and fight simply choosing not to.   
 
So if I were to fight Mike Tyson and jump out of the ring, thereby gaininig my strategic objective of staying alive, I would have won the bout?
 
Quote The claim for the germans "winning" is the higher casualties inflicted on the royal navy.
 
 
Who had the greater casualties at Thermopylae, the Persians or the Spartans? Who won the battle?
 
 
Quote   That they achieved, while taking the german navy out of commission was not achieved.
 
What do you call hiding in harbour? If that isn't 'out of commission' it might as well be. It's certainly 'out of action' which is where the RN wanted it.
 
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

well, if the High Seas Fleet would have repeated Jütland a few times, then eventually Britain would have run out of ships...
Britain had 149 ships (destroyers and above) at Jutland against the German 110.  Britain lost 14, Germany lost 11. Do the arithmetic. After just ten Jutlands the German fleet is blown out of the water, and Britain still has nine ships surviving. 
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I mean the Romans at Cannae also held the battlefield...dead on the ground.
I don't know what you're talking about. The Romans didn't hold the field at Cannae.
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how many RN ships are still there, claiming their victory on the bottom of the Northern Sea?
Fourteen. So? There are eleven German ones, but they're not claiming any victory.
 
If you're just describing the futility and pointlessness of war, then fine, I agree with you. In that case it is somewhat sad to be discussing who won and who lost.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aghart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2007 at 22:21
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

well, if the High Seas Fleet woudl have repeated Jütland a few times, then eventually Britain would have run out of ships... I mean the Romans at Cannae also held the battlefield...dead on the ground. how many RN ships are still there, claiming their victory on the bottom of the Northern Sea?
 
But the point is that they didn't repeat it. They succesfully inflicted damage on the Battle cruisers but retired when the main power ( the Dreadnaught Battleships) of the Grand Fleet became involved in the battle. The German ambush plan worked and worked very well but failed to give the High Seas Fleet the outright victory it sought.
 
It is highly unlikely that a repeat sortie would fare as well, The High Seas Fleet knew this and wisely avoided  any major engagement after Jutland.
 
The fact is Jutland was an inconclusive battle, The result was a DRAW.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 04:27
They did in fact sortie again that August, but no action arose from that. The British were even less interested in a fleet action after Jutland, the memory of those Battlecruisers blwoing up and Warspite burning was too fresh. A defeat for the RN would mean the end of the British Empire while a defeat for the Germans would only mean the end of the High Seas Fleet. Or so it was thought.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 06:43
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

So if I were to fight Mike Tyson and jump out of the ring, thereby gaininig my strategic objective of staying alive, I would have won the bout?
Strategically speaking you would have achieved your goal, not tactically.  You could try and prepare yourself and jump back in if you so desired to.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Who had the greater casualties at Thermopylae, the Persians or the Spartans? Who won the battle?
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here.  Could you elaborate?  In that example the higher casualties taken were by the persians.  Tactically the persians won, but strategically...
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

What do you call hiding in harbour? If that isn't 'out of commission' it might as well be. It's certainly 'out of action' which is where the RN wanted it.
No, technically, the german navy still existed it had not been destroyed.  I was under the impression the royal navy wanted to mantain the blockade but also to destory, as in sink ships, the german navy.  The first they did, the latter they didn't.  Therefore there was still the risk and threat of the german navy.  That had not been eliminated.  Though I see where you are coming from here and can't really argue with you on that.  The german navy, excluding submarines and a view exciting escapades in south america and other places, did little for the rest of the war and the blockade was a major factor in the defeat of germany. 
All things considered, that was why I view the battle a draw.


Edited by Justinian - 18-Oct-2007 at 06:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 08:56
The British were quite happy about facing the German Fleet. Note the German fleet did not wish to face the Grand Fleet and its Dreadnoughts. When they realised at Jutland what they were facing they turned and fled. Yes they succeeded in sinking some battle-CRUISERS and causing some damage to a couple of Battleships belonging to a Squadron attached to the Battle Cruisers under Beatty. When they saw the Grand fleet deployed across their line of advance they basically knew they hadn't a chance and ran for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 13:51
 
Originally posted by Justinian Justinian wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

So if I were to fight Mike Tyson and jump out of the ring, thereby gaininig my strategic objective of staying alive, I would have won the bout?
Strategically speaking you would have achieved your goal, not tactically.  You could try and prepare yourself and jump back in if you so desired to.
Of course. But how could you say I had won? Or even that it was a draw? Under boxing rules it would definitely be a win for Tyson.
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Who had the greater casualties at Thermopylae, the Persians or the Spartans? Who won the battle?
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here.  Could you elaborate?  In that example the higher casualties taken were by the persians.  Tactically the persians won, but strategically...
The Persians won, period. Even though they took the more casualties, which was my point. At the end of the day they held the field, and moreover they had achieved their objective of continuing their way southwards.
 
Who eventually won the war had nothing to do with who won that battle. Without Thermopylae the war would have followed much the same course in fact.
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

What do you call hiding in harbour? If that isn't 'out of commission' it might as well be. It's certainly 'out of action' which is where the RN wanted it.
No, technically, the german navy still existed it had not been destroyed. 
True, but it was out of action. It certainly wasn't IN action.
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 I was under the impression the royal navy wanted to mantain the blockade but also to destory, as in sink ships, the german navy. 
It would have been nice, and Nelson would have been disappointed with the result of Jutland, just as the British were at the time. However, because you scrape out a referee's decision rather than winning on a knockout, or win by a couple of runs instead of by an innings, you still win the fight.
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The first they did, the latter they didn't.  Therefore there was still the risk and threat of the german navy.  That had not been eliminated. 
Yes it had (apart from the submarines of course). After Jutland no-one was seriously worried about the German surface fleet any more.
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Though I see where you are coming from here and can't really argue with you on that.  The german navy, excluding submarines and a view exciting escapades in south america and other places, did little for the rest of the war and the blockade was a major factor in the defeat of germany. 
All things considered, that was why I view the battle a draw.


Edited by gcle2003 - 18-Oct-2007 at 13:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 13:56
 
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

They did in fact sortie again that August, but no action arose from that. The British were even less interested in a fleet action after Jutland, the memory of those Battlecruisers blwoing up and Warspite burning was too fresh. A defeat for the RN would mean the end of the British Empire while a defeat for the Germans would only mean the end of the High Seas Fleet. Or so it was thought.
 
Jutland proved there was absolutely no chance of the German fleet beating the British in the North Sea. There was obviously a possibility that the German fleet might sortie and trap a few smaller ships, as they did at the beginning of Jutland. But, as at Jutland, the Grand Fleet itself was a different matter, and the Germans had the sense to realise they could do no more than run from it. And cross their fingers, since the Grand Fleet was faster, bigger, and heavier-gunned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 15:14
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Jutland proved there was absolutely no chance of the German fleet beating the British in the North Sea. There was obviously a possibility that the German fleet might sortie and trap a few smaller ships, as they did at the beginning of Jutland. But, as at Jutland, the Grand Fleet itself was a different matter, and the Germans had the sense to realise they could do no more than run from it. And cross their fingers, since the Grand Fleet was faster, bigger, and heavier-gunned.


I do not agree that Jutland 'proved' that, or much of anything in fact.  The Germans were outnumbered, and outgunned to some extent.  That was well realized before the battle.  The Battle of Jutland made no difference in that regard.  The fact is that there was a constant 'debate' between those that wanted to 'do something' and those who believed in the 'fleet in being' theories to the extent that they believed that the navy was 'more effective' safe in port as a 'potential threat' to the enemy (whether that makes any sense or not is a matter for debate of course).  The plan which lead to the Battle of Jutland was for the Germans to 'pounce' on a part of the British fleet (Battlecruisers in particular) and destroy it before the main British fleet could intervene.  In that the Germans were somewhat successful.  The British hoped to make any sortie by the Germans costly enough to reduce or eliminate the threat posed by the German navy.  In that they were somewhat successful in that they did some damage and somewhat 'evened the score' in terms of losses and made it clear that there was at least a 'risk' of the Germans getting 'caught' when they sortied.  A 'decisive' victory for the British would have involved inflicting much heavier losses on the Germans.  A 'decisive' German victory would have involved the destruction of more Battlecruisers and fewer losses on their side (i.e. a much more favourable attrition rate).  Both sides failed to achieve a 'decisive' result.  The Germans achieved some measure of 'tactical' success (in terms of the losses).  The British achieved some measure of 'strategic' success (threatening to 'catch' the Germans and demonstrating the 'risk' in any sortie by the German fleet). 


Edited by deadkenny - 18-Oct-2007 at 15:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 16:05
glce2003, after Jutland no one in the RN was particularly egar to fight a fleet action again (even Beatty), the Germans had proved that they were a match for (ship to ship) the RN in the Battlecruiser action (which most of the time had the QE Battleships in support mind you) and they could possibly maul the RN. Yes in absolute numbers the RN had a big advantage, but in a battle if part of the fleet was destroyed the whole bloackade could be compromised. As said even 90% chances were not justifiable to risk the British Empire. In the August sortie it was the RN which turned away, the following year at Heligoland Blight it was the RN which only sent a sqaud of Battleships. In short the British were as egar to avoid battle as the germans. The advantage, it was enough for the British not to lose.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 16:40

I put down the failure of the RN to anhilitate the Germans to three reasosn -

1. Jellico's understandable cautiuosness in turning away when Scheer ordered his torpedo boats to cover the German retreat.  While it can be argued that the battle ships may have been able to avoid the torpedoes if Jellico had lost too many ships Scheer could have counterattacked and Jellico could have 'lost the war in an afternoon'.
 
2. Beatty's incompetance - this was demonstarted in a number of ways
a. not opening fire when he came in range for 10 minutes;
b. seeking to close the range with Hipper when the British had longer range guns and the whole idea of the battle cruiser was to destroy the enemy at long range.  This also meant that rather than waiting for the 5bs to arrive he initially engaged Hipper with only 6 ships rather than 10.
c. poor communications, failing to inform Jellico of the location of the German fleet, faling to pass orders on to the 5bs.
d. failure to prepare his ships for battle, the gunnery of the British battlecruisers was significantly inferior to Jellico's battleships despite Beatty's having more combat experience.
 
3. Poor British equipment and operating procedures
a. poor quality shells exploding on contact rather than penetrating then exploding, if the British shells had been of the same quality as the Germans the Germans would have lost many more ships;
b. dangerous amunition handling procedures, ships carrying too much ammunition that was stored outside magazines, keeping magazine doors open etc.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 20:09
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

I mean the Romans at Cannae also held the battlefield...dead on the ground.
I don't know what you're talking about. The Romans didn't hold the field at Cannae.


that was just a pun at your outdated concepts of "holding the field". i mean didn't the French held the field too in ww2, Maginot line? your ideas are contrary to modern sucessfull doctrine, that is shoot & scoot and guerillia tactics in general. overall the emphasize is on speed rather than raw firepower. firepower doctrien is nize and all but only if your enemy holds still and if you can point your guns in several directions at the same time, in case you get outmanoeuvered.

besides, in terms of ship losses i was talking about major ship losses, cruisers and below are neglectable, only battlecruisers & battleships do really count.


Edited by Temujin - 18-Oct-2007 at 20:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2007 at 14:31

The loss of three capital ships vs one is telling.

The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HaloChanter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2007 at 15:07
Quote glce2003, after Jutland no one in the RN was particularly egar to fight a fleet action again
 
- That is not correct. When the Germans put back to see in August, the RN issued forth to meet them, and it was the Germans who returned to port to avoid a fight.
 
German morale after Jutland was very, very low, and as we know the sailors were only too happy to capitulate toward the end of the war.
 
I doubt very much that the Germans would have prevailed in another fleet action - but of course conjecture has no place in historic discussion Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2007 at 15:50
The RN did go forth, but the fact is that they kept their distance and no action (apart from a few isolated shots) developed
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HaloChanter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2007 at 16:11

The Germans kept their distance, and eventually returned to port.

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