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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2009 at 14:42
Omar,
 
My point about Afghanistan as some "graveyard" was that it has been more a "playground" of great powers.  They come; they play and they leave.  There have been differing reasons why that happened, but essentially it has not changed that much.
 
This business about "oh, if you had stayed to 'build Afghanistan' 9/11 would not have happened...."  Come on.  That was never the case, and the cultural disconnect was already in action.  Infidels are infidels in Afghanistan or in the Gulf.  The only demonstrated way to "get along" with tribal groups like that is to let them alone.  After the Soviet presence left, we let them alone in Afghanistan - didn't work.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 08:51
Originally posted by gcle gcle wrote:

They might have had a leg to stand on if they had put them on trial themselves, and allowed the evidence against them to be heard in public court. Otherwise it was just legalistic waffle: the al-Qaida people being sought weren't, after all, Afghani citizens.

I'm not sure that the Taliban would be particularly concerned with international notions of citizenship, assuming they even understood them.

The points you make a true, but there is still the chance that - under threat of invasion - the Taliban would have handed him over. Sure it may have required some negotiation and heavy handed diplomacy but the change in position by the Taliban between 1998/Sept 10 and the invasion convinces me that it was probably possible. That route was never pursued, the neo-cons were too interested in revenge, so we can never really know for sure. I think for the US emotions got in the way of objectivity.
Originally posted by North North wrote:

It's entertaining, but you should use your academic abilities a little more precisely and with more care.

    * I said that he, in my opinion, didn't understand the core reasons for what is happing around him (at his own doorstep).
    * You changed that to mean he didn't understand other Afghans - and that is a totally different issue.

I could be wrong in my observation of course, but that doesn't give you the right to change the meaning of my words.

In that case sorry North, I'll take it that you didn't mean to sound that way, although to be honest I really don't see what the difference is between your wording & mine. (And in any case, I meant the whole post, not just that line)
Originally posted by North North wrote:

I strongly support and believe in the human rights of the UN, whereas (as I read you) you prefer to support the rule of Taliban and subsequently adhere to their Sharia laws - two incompatibel mindsets.

Don't take this the wrong way North, but they* are only incompatible because they are both radical extremes - at least in this context. If you (not you personally of course) come in with the goal of building a Britain, Denmark, or even an India in Afghanistan you are bound to fail because the countries are so dissimilar. If you come in with the goal of building a stable state, that could be done, but it'd look a lot more like Iran than you might like.
If you refuse to compromise on such a lofty ideal as imposing the same view of human rights as Europe has on Afghanistan you'll fail. You have to keep your objective (stable, reasonable government) in mind and know your culture well enough not to impose demands that have nothing to do with the objective (European descendent version of Law for example)

If I were running the US-NATO forces, this would be my plan for defeating the Taliban.
(1) Raise the core of army, enough to defend the major cities
(2) Withdraw all foriegn forces
(3) Put some ideological distance between the foriegn forces and my forces. Fight a defensive and highly cautious style of war.
(4) Fight fire with fire, illiteracy with education. Take the fight to the real battle ground - public opinion. Introduce Sharia - real Sharia, with university trained Qazis (Judges), legal theorists and a justice everyone can understand.
(5) Use education as your major weapon - both village level public education, and scholarships to foriegn schools. If the Talibs bomb a school, rebuild it, keep persisting and keep being generous. Offer scholarships, offer Mullah Omar's son a scholarship to Medina university. Undermine the Taliban ideologically.
(6) Be quick to forgive, and slow to judge.

Then you have the government offering law, security and education, as opposed to the Taliban offering only security. Compared to the current situation where the government is offering a mis- or non-applied foriegn law, and reconstruction - something no-one can really identify with, except possibly as bribes.

*But it really is a great stretch of the imagination to call Taliban's laws sharia. Its hard to imagine they have read a book about sharia, certainly none of the fundamental texts on the subject.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 11:30
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by North North wrote:

It's entertaining, but you should use your academic abilities a little more precisely and with more care.

    * I said that he, in my opinion, didn't understand the core reasons for what is happing around him (at his own doorstep).
    * You changed that to mean he didn't understand other Afghans - and that is a totally different issue.

I could be wrong in my observation of course, but that doesn't give you the right to change the meaning of my words.

In that case sorry North, I'll take it that you didn't mean to sound that way, although to be honest I really don't see what the difference is between your wording & mine. (And in any case, I meant the whole post, not just that line)
Like I said Omar, I could be wrong in my observations - indeed borderline ignorant - but when I'm quoted, I like to be quoted correctly.

Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

Originally posted by North North wrote:

I strongly support and believe in the human rights of the UN, whereas (as I read you) you prefer to support the rule of Taliban and subsequently adhere to their Sharia laws - two incompatibel mindsets.

Don't take this the wrong way North, but they* are only incompatible because they are both radical extremes - at least in this context. If you (not you personally of course) come in with the goal of building a Britain, Denmark, or even an India in Afghanistan you are bound to fail because the countries are so dissimilar. If you come in with the goal of building a stable state, that could be done, but it'd look a lot more like Iran than you might like.
If you refuse to compromise on such a lofty ideal as imposing the same view of human rights as Europe has on Afghanistan you'll fail. You have to keep your objective (stable, reasonable government) in mind and know your culture well enough not to impose demands that have nothing to do with the objective (European descendent version of Law for example)
Again, you give my words way more content than actually stated and I can only agree to what you say.
However, I was not suggesting that the west should build a new Britain or India. I was conveying my observation to Gharanai about our different set of values.
Hardly a suggestion on how to build a state.  
Quoting myself...
From your answers, it's evident that we have different sets of values and different perceptions of what we consider basic human rights.
I strongly support and believe in the human rights of the UN, whereas (as I read you) you prefer to support the rule of Taliban and subsequently adhere to their Sharia laws - two incompatibel mindsets.
 
Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

But it really is a great stretch of the imagination to call Taliban's laws sharia. Its hard to imagine they have read a book about sharia, certainly none of the fundamental texts on the subject.
I have no idea what Taliban read - I can merely observe how they act and how they punish people in public and for what. Seemingly following what most people (including me) think is a harsh interpretation of Sharia. 
That is why I wrote "their Sharia laws"
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 12:52
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


If I were running the US-NATO forces, this would be my plan for defeating the Taliban.
(1) Raise the core of army, enough to defend the major cities
(2) Withdraw all foriegn forces
(3) Put some ideological distance between the foriegn forces and my forces. Fight a defensive and highly cautious style of war.
(4) Fight fire with fire, illiteracy with education. Take the fight to the real battle ground - public opinion. Introduce Sharia - real Sharia, with university trained Qazis (Judges), legal theorists and a justice everyone can understand.
(5) Use education as your major weapon - both village level public education, and scholarships to foriegn schools. If the Talibs bomb a school, rebuild it, keep persisting and keep being generous. Offer scholarships, offer Mullah Omar's son a scholarship to Medina university. Undermine the Taliban ideologically.
(6) Be quick to forgive, and slow to judge.
How is that different from what the Northern Alliance was trying to do pre-2001?
Quote
Then you have the government offering law, security and education, as opposed to the Taliban offering only security.
But the Taliban doesn't offer security. That's why so many people are fleeing from Swat. The Taliban just offers death if you disagree.
 
You sound just a tad like the people who used to say "now if only the Jews would negotiate with Hitler...".
Quote
 Compared to the current situation where the government is offering a mis- or non-applied foriegn law, and reconstruction - something no-one can really identify with, except possibly as bribes.
I'd agree the UN is obviously not throwing the right bribes around enough to the right people.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 18:45
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


Hey Duke. Its not just Canadians. Elements of Australians, Brits, and I'm sure Americans do it too. And I'm equally certain alot to most Canadians don't do it.
 
Sure they do, we still go on about our role in the first world war and battles like Vimy Ridge and Passendale, of which the largest budget movie in Canada was just made last year. And while there's doubt about some of the aspects of the Afghanistan mission here, there's little criticism of our soldiers. Every Friday is an informal "support the troops" day and people are encouraged to wear our national colours.
Quote
Its not as much what it says but how it says it. Although often this type of reporting is in defiance of the facts I'll admit that as far as I know this one looks alright.
 
Maybe it puts a human face on someone you don't want to see as human?

Quote Its so corney & hero-worshipy. The people who write this stuff must've led very sheltered lives!
 
hero-worshipy? Why not look up some stuff on Smokey Smith who was with the Seaforth Highlanders also from Vancouver and got the VC at Ortuna in Italy. The guy took on a bunch of panzers and German paratroopers pretty much alone and survived. He's still reveered even though he's gone now. Trevor Green wasn't just brave to put his life on the line in Afghanistan, he made a difference here at home before going.
Quote That's all true but it doesn't change anything.
I mean just because the US was attacked doesn't mean they aren't trying to wield thier influence. (In fact they are trying to use their influence to ensure they aren't attacked again)
 
There's no doubt that Bush and Cheney took everything sideways and I'm glad to see them gone. There's a new administration in the White House now though, one that seems to be serious about U.S. security AND human rights.
Quote It was due to a doctors mistake rather than an axe but otherwise pretty similar.
What the reporter is doing is using the story of this solider for propaganda. Its far beyond reporting the good news of his recovery, its glorifying him, his injury beyond all sense. Turning him into a Martyr for the cause rather than a human being
 
That happens here too sometimes, best wishes to her.
 
This is something the public in Canada is interested in. Like I said we spent almost four decades sending Canadians around the world to try and help other people sort out their differences. People got used to low casualties and more or less respect for the Blue Helmets. The attack on Trevor Greene upset and pissed off a lot of people. It wasn't just the seriousness of the injury it was the way it was done. Canadian Peacekeepers have tried to maintain good relations with local groups on their missions and this appeared to be a setup of the kind you see in Mafia movies. They got him to relax and let his guard down and then tried to kill him. It caused a real adjustment both in peoples perceptions here but also in how the military looked at the mission. 
 
I find the whole initial tone of this thread disrespectful to the man and the forces he served in. The title itself "Axed Canadian" seems to me intended to remove his humanity, this story restores it as far as I'm concerned.
 


Edited by DukeC - 11-May-2009 at 18:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 22:19
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Gharanai, I suppose you'll just dismiss this as empty propaganda:
 
And of course the blowing up of the statues at Bamiyan was just a CIA false-flag operation I guess. Just as al-Qaida must have been lying when it claimed responsibility for 9/11. And when the Taliban were asked to extradite the leaders involved, they just said 'Right, OK, any time'.
 
 
My dear friend gcle,
First of all thanks for keeping the argument on and for your information that you have shared till now, and regarding the Mass Graves of Hazaras by Taleban, I would never close my eyes on things that are true and totaly agree with this piece of information.
But what you are missing is that Afghanistan has been watching ethnic wars since centuries back, it was The Iron Amir (Amir Abdul Rahman Khan 1880-1901) who killed thousands of Hazaras by cutting their heads and setting his chair on them.
 
It was Abdul Ali Mazari (Leader of Hezb Wahdat 1992-96) who killed thousands of Pashtuns alone in the capital city of Kabul, then came the Taleban in revange and so did happened with themselves where thousands of Taleban were murdered after surrendering to the Northern Alliance (For reference check out this link, I am sure you won't like that video as it's a really sad one).
 
Anyways the statue of Bamyan for sure was a action of extream anti-Afghan tradition and culture, and was and still is condemed by majority (which includes me too) of the people as well as the Taleban of then.
To be honest I am sure you don't want me to start another Flame War, as most of the fellow Pakistani forumers won't like my words a little bit (I am sure that you are a wise guy and got my point).
 
As far as the Security Council Resolutions is concerned, to be honest I don't know anything by that name (Security Council) as it's a biased council where before every deal everyone knows what the outcome is going to be.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 23:17
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Dear Gharanai
 
Thank you for elaborating your thoughts in your lenghty answer to me.
In return to what you said about discussing with me, I also enjoy and learn a lot discussing with you.   
However...
From your answers, it's evident that we have different sets of values and different perceptions of what we consider basic human rights.
I strongly support and believe in the human rights of the UN, whereas (as I read you) you prefer to support the rule of Taliban and subsequently adhere to their Sharia laws - two incompatibel mindsets.
 
First of all thanks for recommenting and glad that you are too enjoying the discussion.
Dear friend as far as your word regarding the preception of the Human Rights is concerned, you are 100% right in saying that we both have different preceptions on that stack.
 
You believe in Human Rights of UN, but I to be honest don't recognize UN and to make it a pioneer in setting the human rights would be the most obscure thing, when we see that they play just the role of and movie watcher when it comes to matters out of its power.
Or shall we say that do they really have any power to implement any right or way of life on people, when they just sit and watch when the Israel attacks the Palestine and Lebanon and voilates thousands of rules set by the so called UNITED NATIONS, where were they when the US against the decisions of UN and so called Security Counsil went on and invaded Iraq? Wasn't that a breachment of the UN basics?
So I guess you are right in that section that we don't take our source of human rights from the same place.
 
As far as the Taleban are concerned, I niether like them not hate them, because my moto is that I only care and struggle for the people of Afghanistan, for the well being of them, for peace of them and for better future of them.
Most of the people around may think of me an Opportunist, and they are right I am one, I don't care whether its a Capitalist, a Communist, a Fascist or an Extreamist government, until my people are in a better living condition, I like them.
Now if you check my previous comments you will find that all I have done is just a comparison that the "Living situation of the people of Afghanistan was much better under Taleban compared to now under US".
 
As far as the Sharia Law is concerned I would love to live under a TRUE Sharia Law, the law that's set my Allah not some extreamist who is trying to exploit young people.
That reminds me of a great line of a Pakistani movie where a Mawlana states that, "Beard is in Islam not Islam in Beard".
A very powerful line which has deap meanings and which shows that you shall first become a TRUE muslim then you shall care for your beard.
 
Anyways,  Iguess once again my fingers kept typing so sorry for another long answer.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 12:50
Originally posted by gcle gcle wrote:

How is that different from what the Northern Alliance was trying to do pre-2001?

That's the first I've heard of that, but even if they were trying to do so the Northern Alliance had neither the public support, the funding, or the operational based to do so.
Not to mention at that time it was the Taliban receiving foriegn funding & weapons.
Quote But the Taliban doesn't offer security. That's why so many people are fleeing from Swat. The Taliban just offers death if you disagree.

Put it this way, if your bicycle was stolen and you wanted it back who would you report it to? The Afghan (Or Pakistani) police or the Taliban?

David Kilcullen asked this question to Afghans in a study, and nearly everyone said the Taliban.
Quote You sound just a tad like the people who used to say "now if only the Jews would negotiate with Hitler...".

NATO is loosing this war, even Karzi is sounding bitter about the foreign troops. Is it better to get some leverage over the Taliban or to continue as is and face a total defeat. I can't see how NATO can ever win this war without negotiating with the Taliban.

I'd have them ideologically kneecapped if at all possible please.
Quote I'd agree the UN is obviously not throwing the right bribes around enough to the right people.

That's a good way of putting it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 13:49
Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

NATO is loosing this war, even Karzi is sounding bitter about the foreign troops. Is it better to get some leverage over the Taliban or to continue as is and face a total defeat. I can't see how NATO can ever win this war without negotiating with the Taliban.

I'd have them ideologically kneecapped if at all possible please.
 
You are right, NATO and ISAF may never win this battle until they don't recognize the Taleban as a considerable force.
That's what Mr. Kazai has been try to teach the foriegners that it is impossible to deal with Taleban by force or millitary means and I guess now Mr. Karzai finally has made the west to think his way.
The recent change in the US commander of the Afghanistan war, is a big step towards a deal with the Taleban.
It was Gen. David McKiernan, who said 2 days back, after Mr. Karzai asked the bombardment to be stopped, that the bombardments will continue which raged the people of Afghanistan who then took it to the road in a protest against the strikes.
 
The new commander Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal is more known as a person who tries to resolve the problems with negotiations rather than fight, though he was the commander of US forces in Iraq when the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal  became public in 2004.
 
So lets just be optimistic and hope he could bring some peace and stability, which has left Afghanistan since long but was restored to some limit under the duo of Gen. Karl Eikenberry and Mr. Lakhdar Brahimi.
Gen. Eikenberry has been named as the new US Ambassador to Afghanistan, which is also considered a plus change in the strategy of US.
 
So lets just hope for the best and pray that conditions get better at least better than now.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 15:00
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

My dear friend gcle,
First of all thanks for keeping the argument on and for your information that you have shared till now, and regarding the Mass Graves of Hazaras by Taleban, I would never close my eyes on things that are true and totaly agree with this piece of information.
But what you are missing is that Afghanistan has been watching ethnic wars since centuries back, it was The Iron Amir (Amir Abdul Rahman Khan 1880-1901) who killed thousands of Hazaras by cutting their heads and setting his chair on them.
Why does that make a difference? Richard I had 3,000 Saracens killed after the siege of Acre. That wouldn't justify another Bitish leader - or even a Saracen one - doing the same thing.
 
OK to the middle bit.
Quote
As far as the Security Council Resolutions is concerned, to be honest I don't know anything by that name (Security Council) as it's a biased council where before every deal everyone knows what the outcome is going to be.
No international decision is reached without the participants first determining what the outcome is going to be. That doesn't mean the council is biassed one way or another, it's just the way international diplomacy works.
 
It was because Bush/Blair knew what the outcome of a Security Council debate in 2003 wouod have been that they didn't ask for SC approval of the Iraq invasion: they knew they wouldn't get it. As for the SC approval of the invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taliban, you might note that Russia or China could have blocked it: they didn't, and made it known in advance they wouldn't.
 
Moreover it wasn't and isn't just the Security Council that ruled that way; the General Assembly went along with it. Look for instance at the resolution  at http://www.afghanistan-un.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2001_3.pdf
and in particular at the long list of international agreements and covenants on human rights Afghanistan had agreed to and failed to preserve.


Edited by gcle2003 - 12-May-2009 at 15:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 15:14
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote But the Taliban doesn't offer security. That's why so many people are fleeing from Swat. The Taliban just offers death if you disagree.

Put it this way, if your bicycle was stolen and you wanted it back who would you report it to? The Afghan (Or Pakistani) police or the Taliban?
In Pakistan the police I guess. In Afghanistan today, neither. I'd just let it go. I certainly wouldn't want the Taleban to know I existed.
 
Put it this way, if you're a woman looking to be educated, do you go to the Taliban? (I realise that the Karzai government has also been backsliding on this, but it's still preferable.)
Quote
David Kilcullen asked this question to Afghans in a study, and nearly everyone said the Taliban.
Just like the people who pointed out that Mussolini made the trains run on time and Hitler did so well reducing unemployment among Germans.
Quote
Quote You sound just a tad like the people who used to say "now if only the Jews would negotiate with Hitler...".

NATO is loosing this war, even Karzi is sounding bitter about the foreign troops.
I suspect Karzai is sounding bitter because the foreign troops aren't letting him have his personal way on everything. NATO is interested in establishing a rational political situation in Afghanistan. Karzai is interested in Karzai.
Quote
Is it better to get some leverage over the Taliban or to continue as is and face a total defeat. I can't see how NATO can ever win this war without negotiating with the Taliban.
A likely outcome will be that the NATO countries get fed up with the effort, and get out and leave the Afghans to their own devices. Which will doom Afghanistan to at least decades of impoverishment and repression and civil war. A lot of Afghans, maybe a majority, will deserve just that: one can only feel sorry for the rest. If so though, I personally wouldn't vote for a dollar's worth of aid to go to the country.
Quote
I'd have them ideologically kneecapped if at all possible please.
Not sure who you meant by that Smile
Quote
Quote I'd agree the UN is obviously not throwing the right bribes around enough to the right people.

That's a good way of putting it.
Sadly yes. Once upon a time the British knew how to handle situations like this.


Edited by gcle2003 - 12-May-2009 at 15:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 17:26
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why does that make a difference? Richard I had 3,000 Saracens killed after the siege of Acre. That wouldn't justify another Bitish leader - or even a Saracen one - doing the same thing.
Dear gcle,
I guess you totaly misunderstood me, as I ment that these killings and graves are common over this part of the world as we have been facing it since centuries (thanks to the British strategy of Divide and Rule).
It's something same like the suppression of Black people in the US and some parts of the Europe, those people have seen such treatement since centuries and now it's a common thing for them.
 
Quote
No international decision is reached without the participants first determining what the outcome is going to be. That doesn't mean the council is biassed one way or another, it's just the way international diplomacy works.
 
It was because Bush/Blair knew what the outcome of a Security Council debate in 2003 wouod have been that they didn't ask for SC approval of the Iraq invasion: they knew they wouldn't get it. As for the SC approval of the invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taliban, you might note that Russia or China could have blocked it: they didn't, and made it known in advance they wouldn't.
 
Moreover it wasn't and isn't just the Security Council that ruled that way; the General Assembly went along with it. Look for instance at the resolution  at http://www.afghanistan-un.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2001_3.pdf
and in particular at the long list of international agreements and covenants on human rights Afghanistan had agreed to and failed to preserve.
 
I wouldn't like to comment on this section of your comment, as you are providing me data and materials of a source that I do not recognize.
Anyway as far as Russia and China was concerned regarding the Taleban, more than any other country those two were interested in the removal of Taleban as it was growing in number and strenght day after another, while Russia was already fighting the religious uprisings in Chechnya in the west they didn't wanted another religious group in Uzbekistan (most of whose nationals are still fighting in the ranks of Taleban) and Tajikistan.
China is a country where religion has very minnor independence and the growing number of muslims Uyghurs in Xinjiang autonomous region, is a big hurdle in there way.
Now during the Taleban rule most of the Uyghurs did came to Afghanistan for their Sharia studies which the Chiness authorities didn't like a bit.
 
So I don't think Russia and China ever wanted to avoid invasion of Afghanistan, though they would had risked their arch-rival US taking a step nearer to them (Russia-China).
 


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Oh I forgot to mention a recent news, while reading it I was soo much surpirse and was laughing at it as just a day back I was talking about it on this thread.
Here is the link


Edit:
Dear Northman,
In my previous post I mentioned 3 catagories of Taleban and in 3rd catagory I mentioned people who have lost someone special.
Here I have found some pictures (though it's not of Afghanistan, but has no difference), I want you to see it then tell me what do you think that the boy would be thinking afterwards?

Here is the link (you can find it at the bottom).




Edited by Gharanai - 12-May-2009 at 20:52


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 09:57
Sorry, I missed a couple of posts here.

DukeC I'm running out of words to explain what I mean. If we continue at this rate we're going to abstract the issue so much we'll be agreeing with each other. I'll think about how to phrase it right, and maybe a few examples and get back to you.

Originally posted by North North wrote:

Again, you give my words way more content than actually stated and I can only agree to what you say.
However, I was not suggesting that the west should build a new Britain or India.

I didn't mean you personally North



Originally posted by gcle gcle wrote:

In Pakistan the police I guess. In Afghanistan today, neither. I'd just let it go. I certainly wouldn't want the Taleban to know I existed.

In Pakistani police probably stole your bike in the first place! , Even my family has been robbed by the Pakistani police. A few years ago all my aunts were going to a wedding, and withdrew all their jewelry from the bank the day before. The bank tipped off the police who attacked the house that night. The police went over the wall, subdued our guard (who was only armed with a whistle, because if he was armed with a gun he'd have been shot on sight. We're not rich enough to afford enough guards to put up a fight) and then got in via a bedroom window. At which point there was nothing that could be done, they took the Jewelry and left.
Quote Put it this way, if you're a woman looking to be educated, do you go to the Taliban? (I realise that the Karzai government has also been backsliding on this, but it's still preferable.)

Well I already said the Taliban did not offer anything for education. But if I was a woman looking for an education the best choice would be people smugglers to the west, or to get into Iran. You're not going to get much of an education in either Afghanistan or Pakistan regardless of who's in power unless your rich, especially if your a woman.
Quote Just like the people who pointed out that Mussolini made the trains run on time and Hitler did so well reducing unemployment among Germans.

If anything that's my point. If you want to prevent these types you have to remove their advantage. Get someone else who can make the trains run on time.
Quote
Sadly yes. Once upon a time the British knew how to handle situations like this.

True, perhaps they still are. They haven't had much of a chance to demonstrate it recently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 16:31
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

In Pakistan the police I guess. In Afghanistan today, neither. I'd just let it go. I certainly wouldn't want the Taleban to know I existed.
 
Now you see dear gcle, you have made a very bad dicision by going to police in Pakistan, as you will find that the bicycle that you want to complain for is in the Police Station and an (Awal Dar) would be using it (ex. was provided by Omar).
 
When we were in school we used to tell a joke about Pakistan police which is; "Once there was a meeting between Head of police or several countries, a question was put through to all which asked that Once a robbery accures after how long your police gets the news?
Germany answered 10min, Britain 12min, France 15min, US 20min, and so on when it came turn of Pakistan the head of police said that we get the tip 2 days in advance as there is no robbery until we are not informed?"
 
So for sure most the people in Swat and south of Afghanistan will refere to Taleban while in North of Afghanistan they will refere to local malitias and only to police in central areas. Same goes in Pakistan, if you are in Sindh you will seek the help of local feudals or if you are an Urdu speaker you will seek help of MQM, if Pashtun you will go to local groups.
In Baluchestan no one boders to report anything to police as the local tribal leaders or (Mirs and Nawabs) are the gov there.
So only in center and some parts of Punjab you may go to Police only to find a report taken and that's it.
 
So if you are in the region I strongly advice you not to waste your time. Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 19:33
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

In Pakistan the police I guess. In Afghanistan today, neither. I'd just let it go. I certainly wouldn't want the Taleban to know I existed.
 
Now you see dear gcle, you have made a very bad dicision by going to police in Pakistan, as you will find that the bicycle that you want to complain for is in the Police Station and an (Awal Dar) would be using it (ex. was provided by Omar).
Well, I said 'I guess'. I really don't know and I suspect it depends who I am, as it would in most countries. So I'll take your and Omar's word for the Pakistan police being corrupt.
 
However, my main point was that a stolen bicycle is trivial compared to the things I would not dare to go to the Taliban about. I wish there was an Afghan woman contributing to this debate. Or an Afghan Shiite.
Quote  
When we were in school we used to tell a joke about Pakistan police which is; "Once there was a meeting between Head of police or several countries, a question was put through to all which asked that Once a robbery accures after how long your police gets the news?
Germany answered 10min, Britain 12min, France 15min, US 20min, and so on when it came turn of Pakistan the head of police said that we get the tip 2 days in advance as there is no robbery until we are not informed?"
I've heard the same joke told about the police in Chicago and a few other places in the US and Italy. Schoolyard humour isn't a good guide to anything.


Edited by gcle2003 - 13-May-2009 at 20:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 19:58
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why does that make a difference? Richard I had 3,000 Saracens killed after the siege of Acre. That wouldn't justify another Bitish leader - or even a Saracen one - doing the same thing.
Dear gcle,
I guess you totaly misunderstood me, as I ment that these killings and graves are common over this part of the world as we have been facing it since centuries (thanks to the British strategy of Divide and Rule).
Basically that's just silly. They were more common before the British even arrived, and they have become common again since the British left. Take responsibility for your own history.
Quote
It's something same like the suppression of Black people in the US and some parts of the Europe, those people have seen such treatement since centuries and now it's a common thing for them.
 
Quote
No international decision is reached without the participants first determining what the outcome is going to be. That doesn't mean the council is biassed one way or another, it's just the way international diplomacy works.
 
It was because Bush/Blair knew what the outcome of a Security Council debate in 2003 wouod have been that they didn't ask for SC approval of the Iraq invasion: they knew they wouldn't get it. As for the SC approval of the invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taliban, you might note that Russia or China could have blocked it: they didn't, and made it known in advance they wouldn't.
 
Moreover it wasn't and isn't just the Security Council that ruled that way; the General Assembly went along with it. Look for instance at the resolution  at http://www.afghanistan-un.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2001_3.pdf
and in particular at the long list of international agreements and covenants on human rights Afghanistan had agreed to and failed to preserve.
 
I wouldn't like to comment on this section of your comment, as you are providing me data and materials of a source that I do not recognize.
Then you can hardly expect anyone else to recognise you, can you? There's a very sound reason why the massive majority of the whole world, despite all its ideological differences, was and is against the Taliban. Not all of us have forgotten the lessons of the fight against ideological tyranny in so many places in the last century.
 
Have you ever heard of a pro-Taliban demonstration anywhere except in Afghanistan and maybe in Pakistan?
Quote
Anyway as far as Russia and China was concerned regarding the Taleban, more than any other country those two were interested in the removal of Taleban as it was growing in number and strenght day after another, while Russia was already fighting the religious uprisings in Chechnya in the west they didn't wanted another religious group in Uzbekistan (most of whose nationals are still fighting in the ranks of Taleban)
You just make this stuff up, don't you? Uzbeikstan was one of the foremost leaders in proposing and supporting action against the Taliban in 2001/2.
but Uzbekistan was one of the earliest antagonists of the Taliban.
'Most of its nationals' means about seven million people, just counting men, no? I'll grant you a few Muslim extremists from Uzbekistan, but fewer than from many foreign countries.
Quote
and Tajikistan.
China is a country where religion has very minnor independence and the growing number of muslims Uyghurs in Xinjiang autonomous region, is a big hurdle in there way.
Now during the Taleban rule most of the Uyghurs did came to Afghanistan for their Sharia studies which the Chiness authorities didn't like a bit.
 
So I don't think Russia and China ever wanted to avoid invasion of Afghanistan, though they would had risked their arch-rival US taking a step nearer to them (Russia-China).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 09:28
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...Schoolyard humour isn't a good guide to anything.
But experience is. Wink
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Basically that's just silly. They were more common before the British even arrived, and they have become common again since the British left. Take responsibility for your own history.
I have never said that I am not responsible for my history, but me and you can not change a world known fact, can we?
 
Quote
Then you can hardly expect anyone else to recognise you, can you?
Now that's the most amazing thing I have heard, it means before 26 June 1945  no one recognized that there was a country by the name of Afghanistan, or US or USSR or Britain or Persia or Greece and so on.
No dear it is your own diplomatic status that makes you recognize a government not the UN, if you were true then how Pakistan and Saudi Arabia recognized the Taleban government while Northern Alliance's representive was present in UN HQ, doesn't that sound like a funny joke? LOLLOLLOLLOL
 
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Anyway as far as Russia and China was concerned regarding the Taleban, more than any other country those two were interested in the removal of Taleban as it was growing in number and strenght day after another, while Russia was already fighting the religious uprisings in Chechnya in the west they didn't wanted another religious group in Uzbekistan (most of whose nationals are still fighting in the ranks of Taleban)
 
Originally posted by glce glce wrote:

You just make this stuff up, don't you? Uzbeikstan was one of the foremost leaders in proposing and supporting action against the Taliban in 2001/2.
 
 
Did I sound the opposite as I guess I too said that the Russians didn't wanted another religious group in Uzbekistan, which for sure is with the support of then (and current) government of Uzbekistan.
 
What I was refering to is:
and
 
 
Originally posted by glce glce wrote:

 
So for sure Uzbekistan will offers assistance to NATO in Afghanistan as it doesn't want the IMU in power and an end to Mr. Islam Karimov's government (which is by most western countries counted illegitimate, refere to Link1 and Link2 for more).
 


Edited by Gharanai - 14-May-2009 at 09:34


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 16:05
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...Schoolyard humour isn't a good guide to anything.
But experience is. Wink
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Basically that's just silly. They were more common before the British even arrived, and they have become common again since the British left. Take responsibility for your own history.
I have never said that I am not responsible for my history, but me and you can not change a world known fact, can we?
 
Quote
Then you can hardly expect anyone else to recognise you, can you?
Now that's the most amazing thing I have heard, it means before 26 June 1945  no one recognized that there was a country by the name of Afghanistan, or US or USSR or Britain or Persia or Greece and so on.
That's quite silly. No it doesn't at all. I meant since you, Gharanai, don't recognise the UN, then you can't expect anone else to recognise you, Gharanai.
Quote
No dear it is your own diplomatic status that makes you recognize a government not the UN, if you were true then how Pakistan and Saudi Arabia recognized the Taleban government while Northern Alliance's representive was present in UN HQ, doesn't that sound like a funny joke? LOLLOLLOLLOL
Not in the least. The UN recognises Afghanistan, it's you that don't. It would be nice if you didn't just try and make up smart-ass jokes and instead paid attention to what people say.  
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Anyway as far as Russia and China was concerned regarding the Taleban, more than any other country those two were interested in the removal of Taleban as it was growing in number and strenght day after another, while Russia was already fighting the religious uprisings in Chechnya in the west they didn't wanted another religious group in Uzbekistan (most of whose nationals are still fighting in the ranks of Taleban)
 
Originally posted by glce glce wrote:

You just make this stuff up, don't you? Uzbeikstan was one of the foremost leaders in proposing and supporting action against the Taliban in 2001/2.
 
 
Did I sound the opposite as I guess I too said that the Russians didn't wanted another religious group in Uzbekistan, which for sure is with the support of then (and current) government of Uzbekistan.
 
What I was refering to is:
and
I know about the IMU, and I said you would find some Islamic extremists from Uzbekistan with the Taliban. After all there were even Islamic militants from the US and Britain. However, unlike your ridiculous claim, the majority of the population of Uzbekistan are most definitely not fighting for the Taliban.
Quote  
 
Originally posted by glce glce wrote:

 
So for sure Uzbekistan will offers assistance to NATO in Afghanistan as it doesn't want the IMU in power and an end to Mr. Islam Karimov's government (which is by most western countries counted illegitimate, refere to Link1 and Link2 for more).
 
So admit you were wrong with that silly stuff about the majority of the Uzbek population. Apart from anything else, statements like that destroy any credibility the rest of your posts may have.


Edited by gcle2003 - 14-May-2009 at 16:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 17:19
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


If I were running the US-NATO forces, this would be my plan for defeating the Taliban.
(1) Raise the core of army, enough to defend the major cities
(2) Withdraw all foriegn forces
(3) Put some ideological distance between the foriegn forces and my forces. Fight a defensive and highly cautious style of war.
(4) Fight fire with fire, illiteracy with education. Take the fight to the real battle ground - public opinion. Introduce Sharia - real Sharia, with university trained Qazis (Judges), legal theorists and a justice everyone can understand.
(5) Use education as your major weapon - both village level public education, and scholarships to foriegn schools. If the Talibs bomb a school, rebuild it, keep persisting and keep being generous. Offer scholarships, offer Mullah Omar's son a scholarship to Medina university. Undermine the Taliban ideologically.
(6) Be quick to forgive, and slow to judge.
How is that different from what the Northern Alliance was trying to do pre-2001?
Quote
Then you have the government offering law, security and education, as opposed to the Taliban offering only security.
But the Taliban doesn't offer security. That's why so many people are fleeing from Swat. The Taliban just offers death if you disagree.
 
You sound just a tad like the people who used to say "now if only the Jews would negotiate with Hitler...".
Quote
 Compared to the current situation where the government is offering a mis- or non-applied foriegn law, and reconstruction - something no-one can really identify with, except possibly as bribes.
I'd agree the UN is obviously not throwing the right bribes around enough to the right people.

 


Some of those concepts are too complicated for American strategists to bother with. As history demonstrates, they would much rather use a sledge hammer to push a pin to cork since it is more economically viable. In addition there is a latent institutionalised racism and contempt for non-European/white nations which deems them unworthy of constructive engagement.

(2) Is exactly how the Soviet Union left the army, but that didn't stop the Taliban.  rather than being defeated in battle the commie Afghans were defeated in will and the same shall be repeated.  And after the crimes inflicted on non-combatant Afghans in the last 8 years they will be hungry for revenge.





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