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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2006 at 15:13

      Capt. Trevor Greene

From a fellow British Columbian, best wishes in your recovery.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 02:54
 
Some details on that recovery.
 
 
EDIT / Northman:
 
The link didn't work - now it does.
 
 


Edited by Northman - 10-Apr-2009 at 03:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 03:17
Thanks again Northman
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 06:13
Good news for the bloke, but that article is sickeningly patriotic.

Getting an axe to the head doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a casualty. The guy who wielded the axe however, that guy's brave! (and dead?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 14:41
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Good news for the bloke, but that article is sickeningly patriotic.

Getting an axe to the head doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a casualty. The guy who wielded the axe however, that guy's brave! (and dead?)
 
Strange how people can have totally different views on the same story.
 
In my opinion, the guy who used the axed is/was a brainwashed lunatic of the same caliber as those who rammed the planes into WTC - albeit in a lesser scale.
How can you call such actions bravery - they are shameless examples of the worst kind of cowardice ever known to man.
 
How much courage does it take to kill anyone who is totally unprepared?
I'll answer it for you - none!
It only takes a lunatic, a brainwashed idiot who is mislead to think he is serving a higher purpose - and mislead to think he will be rewarded with 72 virgins if he is killed himself.
 
I think any country has a right to honour their dead soldiers killed in service - call it patroism or whatever you want, and feel free to blame them for it.
But don't call shameless murderes and terrorists brave, please!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 15:44
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Good news for the bloke, but that article is sickeningly patriotic.

Getting an axe to the head doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a casualty. The guy who wielded the axe however, that guy's brave! (and dead?)
 
No getting an axe to the head doesn't make him a hero, it's what he did before and after that does.
 
Try taking off the cultural blinders for a minute and read it again and maybe you'll get a little more out of the story.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2009 at 02:32
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

In my opinion, the guy who used the axed is/was a brainwashed lunatic of the same caliber as those who rammed the planes into WTC - albeit in a lesser scale.
How can you call such actions bravery - they are shameless examples of the worst kind of cowardice ever known to man.

Give credit where credit is due North. I do not condone his actions, would not have allowed him to do it if I had the opportunity, and will not defend his motives. But lets not distort the English language here either.
Brave means: "Possessing or displaying courage;" (and courage means "The state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution; bravery.")

So the kid was brave. A 16 yr old with a homemade axe, attacking a fully grown soldier armed with an automatic rifle is brave. By definition.
Quote It only takes a lunatic, a brainwashed idiot who is mislead to think he is serving a higher purpose - and mislead to think he will be rewarded with 72 virgins if he is killed himself.

Ah yes, Patriotism. Dead

Tell me, what the hell is the difference between the Kid & the Solider?
Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

No getting an axe to the head doesn't make him a hero, it's what he did before and after that does.
 
Try taking off the cultural blinders for a minute and read it again and maybe you'll get a little more out of the story.

That's true. What did he before and after again? I haven't seen it reported anywhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 16:40
Originally posted by malizai_ malizai_ wrote:

 I think the fact that a boy has done this in the presence of grown men, will leave a bitter taste in the mouths of those men having been outdone by a child and attained martyrdom.
IS he really a "martyr" according to the islamic definition or are you using the term martyrdom from a nationalistic perspective. From the  Islamic definition of martyrdom, he does not appear qualify. The Koran or hadith (or both) appear to forbid attacking people through treachery or guise of truce. Instead, enemies are to be given warnning that they will face attack etc. 
 
The Canadian Officer was apparently under the direct impression that he would not be treated as hostile by the people present. He did not have ready access to weapons and was attacked from behind after he made himself vulnerable.
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Brave means: "Possessing or displaying courage;" (and courage means "The state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution; bravery.")
Brave and dishonorable at the same time. His dis honor is shown by the fact that he was probably using his religion as a justification and then directly violated teachings of that religion.
Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

As for the attack being the actions of one individual as the story points out the adults removed the children minutes before the attack  
Good point. What really happened is far different than the Taliban propaganda. Using children as props to attack a person by surprise while feigning peace is not only cowardly but it is also apparently against the religion of the attackers. It is perfectly acceptable, however, under Chairman Mao's rules of guerilla warfare.  
  
  
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 13-Apr-2009 at 22:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 22:17
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Getting an axe to the head doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a casualty. The guy who wielded the axe however, that guy's brave! (and dead?)


Boy... reading some of the responses here, like this one (Sorry Omar), is really making me rethink my thoughts on S.P. Huntington's theory on "Clash of Civilizations!"





Edited by Panther - 13-Apr-2009 at 22:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 01:37
Originally posted by Cryptic Cryptic wrote:

Brave and dishonorable at the same time. His dis honor is shown by the fact that he was probably using his religion as a justification and then directly violated teachings of that religion.

Definitely.
Quote Boy... reading some of the responses here, like this one (Sorry Omar), is really making me rethink my thoughts on S.P. Huntington's theory on "Clash of Civilizations!"

But which civilisation would I be in?


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 14-Apr-2009 at 01:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 01:57
By applying a definition of bravery that doesn't depend on the moral nature of the act but solely on the risk involved then of course we'd all have to agree that this axeman was brave, the 9/11 pilots even more so. We'd also have to agree it'd be quite brave to rape a child in public, so I for one am not too crazy about this understanding of bravery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 02:01
I see where Omar is coming from. Bravery is often associated with a degree of honour, and a profound understanding of the situation and its dynamics that one finds oneself in. But according to what Omar is saying, it only involves the ability to not be intimidated by a situation in order to do what you feel like doing.

So by Omar's definition. Most muggers, rapists and murderers are quite brave. These people know there is a risk (they may get caught/ their victim may fight back) and yet they summon the nerve to go through with their action despite the circumstances.

However, most people associate bravery with someone who does an action which is necessary. The boy's action was not necessary. He broke the rules of conflict and hospitality which are held in common by both the Afghans and the foreign force serving there. He was most likely brainwashed into doing something that the situation definitely did not call for, and which went against the better judgement of people who were wiser. When you do something which is dangerous out of good judgement, it is called bravery. When you do something dangerous out of ignorance, it is called recklessness.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 02:10
Wow, interesting parallel thought patterns there Reg. Didn't see your post until after I submitted mine.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 03:47
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

In my opinion, the guy who used the axed is/was a brainwashed lunatic of the same caliber as those who rammed the planes into WTC - albeit in a lesser scale.
How can you call such actions bravery - they are shameless examples of the worst kind of cowardice ever known to man.

Give credit where credit is due North. I do not condone his actions, would not have allowed him to do it if I had the opportunity, and will not defend his motives. But lets not distort the English language here either.
Brave means: "Possessing or displaying courage;" (and courage means "The state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution; bravery.")

So the kid was brave. A 16 yr old with a homemade axe, attacking a fully grown soldier armed with an automatic rifle is brave. By definition.
Quote It only takes a lunatic, a brainwashed idiot who is mislead to think he is serving a higher purpose - and mislead to think he will be rewarded with 72 virgins if he is killed himself.

Ah yes, Patriotism. Dead

Tell me, what the hell is the difference between the Kid & the Solider?
Originally posted by DukeC DukeC wrote:

No getting an axe to the head doesn't make him a hero, it's what he did before and after that does.
 
Try taking off the cultural blinders for a minute and read it again and maybe you'll get a little more out of the story.

That's true. What did he before and after again? I haven't seen it reported anywhere.



The kid is a Muslim peasant that has no clue of superior western values, the soldier does Dead.


I think your analogy was superb Omar. There isn't much difference between the two aside from the fact that one does this out of employ and the other for free.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 03:52
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Getting an axe to the head doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a casualty. The guy who wielded the axe however, that guy's brave! (and dead?)


Boy... reading some of the responses here, like this one (Sorry Omar), is really making me rethink my thoughts on S.P. Huntington's theory on "Clash of Civilizations!"





Don't worry, Moses Obama will save us all with the extra 17, 000 troops, and ya'll Republicans called him a tree hugger LOL.

I am really not sure where you would get that from. Omar made a good analogy about two sides without judging either one. When it comes down to basics there isn't much difference between these two sides. A soldier is a soldier, whether he does get a pay check or a flawed ideology that will compensate after the fact.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 04:01
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

By applying a definition of bravery that doesn't depend on the moral nature of the act but solely on the risk involved then of course we'd all have to agree that this axeman was brave, the 9/11 pilots even more so. We'd also have to agree it'd be quite brave to rape a child in public, so I for one am not too crazy about this understanding of bravery.


Well... actually Bill Maher a comedian, and a talk show host here got fired for saying that the hijackers were brave for flying the plane into the building while soldiers remote control rockets into buildings... (what a great example of freedom of speech eh?.. ) of course he never pandered to terrorists, nor is he favorable to religion, nor religious based violence, but he made a point - and if the sides were turned around I am pretty sure he would be praised for the point, but eh what do we know... we live in cities with plumbing, electricity, and no bombs stuck in the front facade... we must know better don't we?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 09:26
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

I am really not sure where you would get that from. Omar made a good analogy about two sides without judging either one. When it comes down to basics there isn't much difference between these two sides. A soldier is a soldier, whether he does get a pay check or a flawed ideology that will compensate after the fact.


From a neutral ground there isn't any reason to claim moral superiority from either side, as they both fight for what they believe in. It comes down to whether one supports the operation in Afghanistan or not. If the operation is morally sound then opposing it must necessarily be wrong, and vice versa.

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Well... actually Bill Maher a comedian, and a talk show host here got fired for saying that the hijackers were brave for flying the plane into the building while soldiers remote control rockets into buildings... (what a great example of freedom of speech eh?.. ) of course he never pandered to terrorists, nor is he favorable to religion, nor religious based violence, but he made a point - and if the sides were turned around I am pretty sure he would be praised for the point, but eh what do we know... we live in cities with plumbing, electricity, and no bombs stuck in the front facade... we must know better don't we?


Freedom of speech is ever a comfortable lie for hypocrites. I wish we'd just drop the charade and be honest about the fact that certain opinions aren't allowed, it would be more consistent and easier to uphold. In this case Bill Maher's employer must be allowed to decide whether he wants to invest in someone who openly says the 9/11 hijackers were brave. Regardless of what one thinks of the statement it must be a serious liability to have a public figure like that on your paylist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 15:48
Interesting thread. In my view, the boy was less brave and as Constantine said, more reckless, as bravery indicates a conscious willingness to endure hardship. If the boy believed that he was to get 72 virgins or whatever at death, then no idea of hardship would have influenced him.

The difference between he child and the soldier is that one is acting in accordance with law, and the other isn't. The ideology behind the act of attempted murder, and the subsequent murder of this boy by soldiers must necessarily be circumscribed by legality, whether you agree with it ethically or not. The boy was murdered by the Afghan soldiers, but murdered legally.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 16:55
Again Law is a perception - especially as this happened in Afghanistan not Canada.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 17:33
UN law is most certainly not a perception, but I see what you mean. This young man's idea of what is allowed is different to the soldier's, but the fact remains that he was lawfully killed and the soldier was unlawfully attacked, one through ideology, and one devoid of it.
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