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MythTR View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MythTR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 18:14

congratulations for advertisement but I think the place isn't for this. We are talking about Atilla the Hun-Turk

We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 20:35
Originally posted by MythTR MythTR wrote:

 
 
Calvo where did you find them ? Especially I don't like the second picture . Could you tell me where did you find ?
 
Thank You!
 
Just scanned Google images for Atilla the Hun. I don't think it's so reliable either as th figure looks more like a Ukrainian Cossack of the 17th an 18th century.
 
Here is another image:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 21:36
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

 
How many times must I tell you to put aside your American racialist views inherited from the apartheid era ? I'm not the only one who has said this to you but it seems like that you don't want to listen.
 
The identity of every nation is defined primarily by the LANGUAGE and CULTURE they have, not by genetic ancestry.
 
For example, Spain, Portugal, France, and Rumania are all Latin-countries.How many Spaniards, Portuguese, and French actually DESCEND genetically from the ancient Latin tribes from Central Italy that founded Rome ? Probably very few.Nevertheless, Spain, Portugal, and France ARE STILL Latin countries because they speak a Latin-derived language and share certain cultural traits common with the Italians.
 
 
 
 
Only you a Spanish national and one Chilean here,no one else who is East Asian or other European nationality.Spanish mentality & world view don't apply in N America.I always know how White-America sees Hispanic-America in a different light Wink.So,I am never shock to read some Latin-Americans upset being group in another category by White-America because they're ignorant of actual  perception of still racially-conscious White-Americans.
 
French do have " Roman " blood and regard Italians as cousins.French are culturally and genetically Latin ( de facto Roman ).
 
As an ethnic southern Han-Chinese,I should know that a nation's identity is bonded by language & culture because Chinese are basically " Hanized " Mongoloid people with very diversed genetics.That's why we always explain to foreigners that Han is a cultural identity not a race because Han-Chinese population has many origins.
 
 
 
 


The French have as much Roman blood as they have Frankish and of other Germanic tribes. By the time of Roman settlements - the lines between Roman and non-Roman had already been blurred enough in Italy alone. The Romans as an ethnic identity based on a common gene pool is a fallacy - even in early history Roman myths are predominated by mixing of peoples. Culture and Language is what made a lot of the upper and middle crust "Roman," well that and citizenship like elsewhere.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 08:11
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

 
 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
Only you a Spanish national and one Chilean here,no one else who is East Asian or other European nationality.Spanish mentality & world view don't apply in N America.I always know how White-America sees Hispanic-America in a different light Wink.So,I am never shock to read some Latin-Americans upset being group in another category by White-America because they're ignorant of actual  perception of still racially-conscious White-Americans.
 




Europeans DO NOT have the same concept of "ethnicity" as Americans. European definition of "ethnicity" is often defined by "nationality" or perceived identity. Religious and historical heritage is another important factor.There is little collective consciousness of a "white" race as there is in America. There is no way you can convince a Rumanian, a Turk, a Spaniard, an Albanian, and a Swede that they are all the same people because they are all "white" according to U.S. classification.


 
 
I have been aware of it all.
 
It's the same with Orientals in the Far East.My early years in America,I was baffled by how White-Americans could glue themselves as " one race "  with obvious different European ethnic backgrounds.I later figured out it's the word " White " that bonds them,it's an American invention  LOL.
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 10-Mar-2009 at 11:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MythTR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 19:52
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Originally posted by MythTR MythTR wrote:

 
 
Calvo where did you find them ? Especially I don't like the second picture . Could you tell me where did you find ?
 
Thank You!
 
Just scanned Google images for Atilla the Hun. I don't think it's so reliable either as th figure looks more like a Ukrainian Cossack of the 17th an 18th century.
 
Here is another image:
 
 
Ok, this picture is better but not enough for me, I think they didn't draw very well.
 
Check my picture, I posted it on page 1 . (which fugure is on the horse)
 
 
We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tullyccro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 04:50
I think it's safe to say that we absolutely cannot look at ethnicity, specifically when studying history, as if it is a static phenomenon.

Perfect example. Look at the Kurdish population, who consider themselves a close-knit ethnic group.

The Kurds are a mix of just about every tribal group that's passed through Central Asia and the Middle East for the past 5000 years. Some are blonde-haired, red-haired, of pale complexion, of fair complexion, some have round faces, others have longer faces. You can't look at someone and say they are quintessentially _____. Unless we want to go back to measuring skulls and talking about master races.

The accounts we've received from ancient historians should prove beyond a doubt that there is no such thing as static, contiguous ethnicity. If that disappoints anyone, too bad. You are not the descendant of Genghis Khan, or, if you slightly are, you are most likely also the decendant of someone he enslaved, or perhaps a woman who was raped by his soldiers. One cannot simply inherit a "winner's" history, but must accept that all of it belongs to each of us.

Probably the most ironic thing to consider is the fact that roughly half of the Roman emperors who ruled after the birth of Christ would have been considered as having "barbarian" origins if you would have asked Caesar, Cicero, Herodotus, or Thucydides to comment on their birth.

Thucydides himself, an Athenian, was most likely of Thracian extraction. According to the Hellens, Thracians were brutes. Alexander, a Macedonian, and his father Philip, being from the mountains to the north of Attica, were considered uncouth horse-breeders and shepherds by their southern neighbors. The Romans were considered ignorant, superstitious peasant farmers by the Carthaginians, who lacked the imagination and ingenuity of a multi-regional power. The Romans considered the Greeks to be effete and the Germans to be incapable of high civilization.

Today, who remembers Thucydides as anything other than an Athenian general and historian? Who thinks of Alexander as being anything but the prime disseminator of Hellenic culture? Who thinks of the Romans as being small-minded farmers not talented at invention, cultural assimilation, or innovation? And who thinks of the Greeks as being the founders of reason and science, rather than flighty and fickle, as the Romans viewed them? Furthermore, most of our notions of high culture peaked in Germany at the end of the last century, in terms of music, mathematics, architecture, and so forth...

To suggest that ethnicities have "timeless" characteristics serves only to demonstrate one's ignorance of history.

The Huns, like countless other nomadic tribes from the Central Asian steppes, would have been a mix of Hellenic culture, Steppe Culture (which cannot be simplified to "Turks,") Asian Culture, Caucasian Culture, and probably North Eastern European culture as well. Hellenes (greek speaking and cultural Greeks) had long settled along the northern reaches of the Black Sea, by the time the Huns were wavering around that region, the Greeks had been there at least a thousand years. Scythians, a pre-Hunnic people, adopted Greek gods and adapted their gear to Greek innovations, and vice versa. Peltasts for example, (composite-armored heavy javelin skirmishers) were a battlefield unit mastered by the Scythian, Thracian and Dacian populations and adopted by the Greeks well before they popularized the hoplite. The Huns would have also had a knowledge of Armenian cultural practices and religion as well. Armenian, there's a word that doesn't get mentioned enough today.

As if this already confusing mix isn't confusing enough, it's worth noting that the Huns first settled in an area which had traditionally been considered a part of the "homeland" of roughly 8 different major cultural groups from antiquity; these are the Dacians, Thracians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Armenians, Illyrians, Macedonians, and... The Romans. The Huns were a lightly Romanized people, in that they regularly interacted with Italian, Iberian, North African, and Gallic merchants, soldiers, generals, tax collectors, and any number of different officials. Attila hiimself spent a great amount of time in Rome, where he gained some of his leadership skills no doubt.   

The notion that the "Turks" as we know them today were hiding out on the steppes of Asia 4000 years ago biding their time before storming over the remnants of the Persian Empire is rubbish. There were no "Turks" then. Just an amalgamation of pre-modern peoples, who would have shared cultural traits with a number of similar peoples who had passed through the area, just like the Huns. Trying to sort out the ethnicity or culture of steppe peoples from antiquity is all but impossible. They left few artifacts and rarely settled down. Being at the crossroads between three fairly static agriculturalized civilizations, they chose to simply live off of trade routes or by hunting. We cannot speak of Turkish culture as a distinct and separate culture until well past antiquity.

That being said: We will never know what Attila the Hun looked like. Suggesting he was of "mongoloid" appearance is either blatantly racist, or blatantly ignorant. Like all steppe peoples of that time, he would have been a mix of nearly every ethnic and cultural group of the time, which touched the area of Central Asia. Furthermore, the notion that the people who inhabited the Steppes were all "Asiatic" in appearance is also demonstrably false.

Consider it this way. Look at a map of the region to the North and East of the Black Sea, in what is mostly modern day Ukraine. Consider how many different static, settled groups border that area. Or rather, consider the kinds of civilizations which border that area. We've mentioned Scythians, Sarmatians, Caucasian Highland peoples, Armenians, and, yes, Mongols or Asiatic people, but consider Persians, Baktrians, Medians, Pontic peoples, not to mention Greeks, and even some Gauls who had spread out from Galatia northwards to the Colchis area, as well as Syrians, Tyrians, and other people who would have been left from Seleucid times, also probably a few Thracians and Dacians as well, no doubt a few Romans there, or Epeirotes; now imagine the map is covered in black ink where we know, for sure, any one of these groups had settled, and now smudge the ink in every direction. Now look at the area again. Does this help?

Cheers,


Edited by tullyccro - 11-Mar-2009 at 05:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote feiying Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 07:20

^Apply basic knowledge of biology.

Whenever Mongoloid people mix with Caucasoid people, the children often look more like the Caucasoid side.  This is more true if the mother is Caucasoid.  Look at the actor Keanu Reeves and Dean Cain.  Reeves father is Chinese-Hawaiian and mother is white British.  Cain's father is Japanese-American and mother is white-American.  Both these men can often pass for white Caucasian.  They lose the Oriental genetics within one or two generations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HungryWolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 14:10
Hm... i heard from someone that Rome Empire imagine Atilla as a long blond headed and blue eyed. But if really i don't belive in it 'cuz i think Atilla had dark hair and eyes as a mongols.


Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hungo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 22:13
Originally posted by Knights Knights wrote:

There are no first-hand accounts of Attila's appearance. A major source on Attila is Priscus of Byzantium, who visited Attila's court. Jordanes wrote his Getica around 100 years after Attila, but seems to have relied heavily upon Priscus' works - and it is Jordanes who provides the first extant account of Attila's appearance:

"He was short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head: his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with gray: and he had a flat nose and a swarthy complexion showing the evidences of his origin..." - Jordanes, Getica

Hope this helps a bit,

- Knights -


Jordanes the Goth was hated the Huns 100%, so he was not showing good picture of teh huns, so his words are not true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afsar Beghi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 22:31
He was black, bold and bad.
Dadaloğlum bir gun kavga kurulur,
Oter tufek davlumbazlar vurulur,
Nice ko yiğitler yere serilir,
Olen lr kalan sağlar bizimdir!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hungo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 08:16
He was white.
He was tha saviour of many tribes and ppl in europe, like franks, goths, germanic tribes, celts etc. He crushed the evil roman empire, he made those ppl free from under roman occupation. THe franks, germanics didnt forget teh mass murder aganist their people by the romans..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 09:59
If Jordanes' description is the only one we have then we must either believe Jordanes or admit we can't know. 
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hungo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 10:31
Search about Priscos or Priscus rhetor. He was a greek person who spent many years in Attilas country, near to him.




Attila with his son Ellak,

In the front Priscos greets the king.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 11:46
Priscus, fair enough, but that picture is a much later imaginative rendering and has nothing to do with Attila other than having his name stuck on it.

Having read Priscus' account of his meeting with Attila I couldn't find any descriptions of his physical features. Maybe I missed it, but all I could find were descriptions of his residence, dress and so forth. It would be nice if you could show us where he is described with European features. Of course, even if Priscus does describe him such, there still remains the question of why we should believe one over the other.

Originally posted by Hungo Hungo wrote:

He was tha saviour of many tribes and ppl in europe, like franks, goths, germanic tribes, celts etc. He crushed the evil roman empire, he made those ppl free from under roman occupation. THe franks, germanics didnt forget teh mass murder aganist their people by the romans..


The Franks fought with the Romans at that point. The Germanic tribes who fought with Attila were mainly the Ostrogoths and the Gepids, who following Attila's death attacked the Huns and destroyed their rule at the battle of Nedao. I guess they didn't want to be occupied by neither Romans nor Huns. Wink
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hungo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 15:42
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:



The Franks fought with the Romans at that point. The Germanic tribes who fought with Attila were mainly the Ostrogoths and the Gepids, who following Attila's death attacked the Huns and destroyed their rule at the battle of Nedao. I guess they didn't want to be occupied by neither Romans nor Huns. Wink


< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">< name="ProgId" ="Word.">< name="Generator" ="Microsoft Word 9">< name="Originator" ="Microsoft Word 9"> Attila didnt have occupation plan on western side of Europe, his homeland tied him to the Carpathian-basin.

< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">< name="ProgId" ="Word.">< name="Generator" ="Microsoft Word 9">< name="Originator" ="Microsoft Word 9">

455: Battle of Nedao: parts of huns leave the Carpathians, but one son of Attila, Csaba stays with his huns in Transylvania.

456: september 7: Earthquake in Savaria

456: east goths settle in Pannonia ( western part of nowdays Hungary)

526: longobards settle in Pannonia

568. april 2: Avar attack on Pannonia, longobards leave and defeated.

572-579: Avar settlement in Pannonia and Duna-Tisza river region

650-670: Alans, Jazygs join the Avars in Pannonia.

791. september 8: Carolus Magnus campaign on the Carpathian basin against the Avars.

791 october: franks troops in Savaria.

795: prince Erik of Frialui campaign against the Avars

796: Pippin the Italian campaign on Avars

Plundering and robbing all the Pannonia in the 5 years made huge losses in popualtion and goods.

800. 25 december: Carolus Magnus becomes emperor by Leo the III.

805-822: Avar and servent for Savaria & Carnuntum

881: first Hungarian campaign to save avar brothers against the bavarians around nowdays Wien (Austria)

895-896: Magyars of Arpad enters the Carpathian basin, and the left huns in Transylvania joins them. ( Magyars were leading campaign around nowdays Bulgaria, to weaken the Byzatain part, and defend the northern homer returning hungarians. That army concisted the  the bravest soldiers and good strategists, who sacrifirced their lives for the others...This subject desvers longer edit.)

899:Arnulf Eastern Frank király dies, his son Child Luis takes the king rank.

907. 4-5 july: Battle of Pozsony ( Nowdays Slovakia, Bratislava)

The united Carpathian forces, magyars, huns, cumanians, gained flawless victory over the united western armys. The allied franks army was led by Luitpold bavarian marquis/count

, on the other side Arpad member of the Almos dynasty. ( That dynasty gave hungarian kings over 500 years).

At that battle teh united western  army suffered heavy losses lost all their ships sent down on teh Danube. That battle was turning point for the settlement for the Magyars of Arpad, and establishing the kingdom.


end of my story here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 19:39
Hungo I have observed your posts throughout the forum. We accept all kinds of ideas here related to history when proper. However, I must urge you to lay off the heavy dose of nationalism and undertones in your content. Consider this an unofficial warning. Nationalism is one of the things we choose to discourage in this community, and perpegrators of such have not lasted long in the past, nor will they in the future. I also must urge you to acquaint yourself with our code of conduct.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ConradWeiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 23:22
I've always read that a lot of the steppe tribes were always very mixed as far as one may 'racially' define them. Travel on the steppe from Europe to China was relatively easy for those who were prepared. In a single tribe, lets say--of central-asian Turks--one could find both "mongoloids" and "caucasians" (plus mixed mongoloid-caucasian), as well as religious diversity ranging from Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, and "pagans".

The Eurasian steppe was a gene "superhighway" in many ways.
Another year! Another deadly blow!
Another mighty empire overthrown!
And we are left, or shall be left, alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 10:02
I don't see what the timeline has to do with anything. We're not talking about the Avars or Magyars. If the point is to show how awesome the Avars and Magyars were by showing a selective timeline, then it should be pointed out that the Avars were conquered by the Franks, who baptized many and turned their land into a military march, while the Magyars were defeated by the Saxons and baptized in the latter half of the 10th century, later ruled by either Austrians or Ottomans.
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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