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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 10:08
Quote Ideologies kill. Ideologies cause wars, Ideologies make reasonable humans into crazy fanatics. Religions are ideologies, political movements, be they communist, fascist, or indeed democratic, are ideologies too. Fortunately, the freak effect of ideologies affects a small portion of the people involved in the movement. Fortunately, only a few religioous people turn suicide bomber or crusader, only a few turn dictator/mass murderer. But these few have rather a large impact on the group as a whole.
That put it best. I always picture athiest being a clean slate and through influences in life choose a philosophy, whether it's parents raising a child to be a good Christian, or a bigotted athiest, it's ideals that your taught, and being an athiest doesn't have any specific ideals, it's just an idea of whether you believe their is a supreme being or not.
Religion has requirements on how to fulfill your life, idealogies, and leaders which have the power to change past ideals or create new ones on the behalf of their god in order to better there religion. The Religious of a specific denomination will more then likely agree with each other then a group of athiest unless your asking the question, "Do you believe in a supreme being?"
Secularism as a philosphy for the government is about not favoring one Religion. The members of it can be a wide range of different religions, and is usually done in the modern sense to promote equality among the nation.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 10:09
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:


Well, your going to have to open the windows to your brain; because nothing will ever get through if they remain shut.
 
My stance is anything causes wars. Religion or Secularism (WW1/WW2).
 
Take this incident, in the view that this affair has the occurence of both a nationalist and secularist agenda.
 
The Crusades: 1000-1300. On the East Islam was faced with Christian Crusaders fighting for religion, on the West it was faced with Mongol Hordes fighting for booty.
 
So yes, open your mind to understand what im saying.
 
Iraq War was in reference to Secularism causing 1.000.000+++ deaths.

Mughaal, that's a very baseless and illogical conclusion to come to about Iraq. Do you even know what secularism means? I'll define it for you. It means the absence of religion in government administration, and freedom from religious favouritism in public affairs.

By you saying that secularism caused the Iraq war, you are effectively saying that the absence of religion in American government caused the USA to invade Iraq. Do you even realise how absurd that sounds?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 10:10
So yes, open your mind to understand what im saying.
 
We understand what your saying, we just don't agree with it.  [And the open window thing goes both ways].
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 10:12
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

You had me in full agreement until the second paragraph. Stalin committed atrocities, including against non-atheist religions, for personal power. This is no different to the Pope calling a crusade, usually (but not always) against other religions, to increase his personal power. Basically, "just because someone has a certain belief and then does certain things, that doesn't prove that the belief causes the action" applies in exactly the same way to atheism, as it does to religion.
The rhetoric doesn't define the action. If GW calls for a war to bring freedom, it doesn't actually mean freedom is responsible for the war. If he says that Democratic governments can't tolerate countrty x's existence, it doesn't mean democracy is violent. Niether is banning religion in russia a crime of atheism, or launching a crusade of jihad a crime of christianity or islam


Regarding the Pope, do you honestly believe that a Crusade would have taken place had the irresistable promise of remission of sins not been offered? To a medieval man, it was the ultimate prize, and only an ideology like religion could offer that. Also look at the nature of the Crusades: intolerant, fanatical and pitiless. Conventions of military honour and decency were considered irrelevant because the fight was against the "unbeliever". The Crusades would never have occurred, or occurred with the degree of brutality they did, had it not been for religious influence.

Did Stalin attack the religious authorities in Russia because secularism calls for it, or because they were a vestige of the previous power structure which would be automatically opposed to his interests? Stalin supported partisan bodies in WWII which were formed with Orthodox Christianity as a common practice within them, simply because such partisans were useful to his interests. With Stalin, it really did come down to what kept him in control. Just as religion has existed for thousands of years as a controlling institution aligned with state power brokers, in the Soviet era it was an old vestige that no longer served state purposes.

With your example of GWB, there is a point to be made about claiming something as your ideology and then doing what is contrary to that ideology. But GWB will direct wars on the basis of state or clique interests anyway, what he claims it in the name of doesn't necessarily cause it. On the other hand, as I have stated earlier in this thread, there are instances when religion acts as the primary cause behind violence and war - something I have yet to see atheism or secularism cause.
 
All this Mumbo Jumbo is totally meaningless. Call me what have you but these types of posts only confirm to me Westerners think in structured, unesoterically.
 
If not A, then only B.
 
Why cant A & B exist together in different amounts?
 
I dont know about Christianity, but in Islam war and destruction isnt a focal point of the religion nor its 5 tenents (5 pillars).
 
Yes there are people who have claimed to war in the name of God (not in the name of Aryanism, or White Power, or oil, or strategic geographic location: Kashmir) but you have to understand things in context.
 
Well, in Islam, everything is governed from having sex to taking a sh*t to eating, to yawning, to praying, to managing your Will, to clipping your nails. Everything has ettiquete. Even war.
 
Yes you will see people fighting in war, as you will see people saying "Allhamdulillah" when they are done washing their hands after pooping. Or when people recite a prayer before loving their wife. The more religious a person is the more he does.
 
As for the current state of affairs, the US financed and trained Al Qaeda to fight the soviets.
The Irani people had a revolution because they disposed of the US Puppet: Shah Pahlavi.
The Arab world is pissed off because America is fighting for imperial ambitions in Iraq: geostrategy, oil, Israel.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 10:21
My German sucks, but it probably says 'The dialectics of nature is with us!' right?



Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000 bilal_ali_2000 wrote:

I would like to ask them that when they list the biggest atrocities done in modern times they are all done by philosophies rooting from athiesism, Hitler and Nazies atrocities were commited in the name of race theories

Hitler and his Nazi ilk were Catholic, Pagan, and practically anything, but atheists. In fact, they were quite anti-atheists.

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000 bilal_ali_2000 wrote:

Darwanist thinking by which they feel that they under the pretext of the philosophy of survival of the fitest

Darwin did not advocate the 'survival of the fittest' nonsense, he said that the animals which are most responsive to changes would be more likely to survive.



Edited by Feanor - 16-Sep-2007 at 10:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 10:22
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

All this Mumbo Jumbo is totally meaningless. Call me what have you but these types of posts only confirm to me Westerners think in structured, unesoterically.


It makes perfect sense, I'm not dumbing myself down to your level so you can have it spoonfed to you. When I was a little boy and didn't understand a large word, I reached for a dictionary - give it a shot.

Quote
I dont know about Christianity, but in Islam war and destruction isnt a focal point of the religion nor its 5 tenents (5 pillars).
 
Yes there are people who have claimed to war in the name of God (not in the name of Aryanism, or White Power, or oil, or strategic geographic location: Kashmir) but you have to understand things in context.
 
Well, in Islam, everything is governed from having sex to taking a sh*t to eating, to yawning, to praying, to managing your Will, to clipping your nails. Everything has ettiquete. Even war.
 
Yes you will see people fighting in war, as you will see people saying "Allhamdulillah" when they are done washing their hands after pooping. Or when people recite a prayer before loving their wife. The more religious a person is the more he does.
 
As for the current state of affairs, the US financed and trained Al Qaeda to fight the soviets.
The Irani people had a revolution because they disposed of the US Puppet: Shah Pahlavi.
The Arab world is pissed off because America is fighting for imperial ambitions in Iraq: geostrategy, oil, Israel.


Yes I was aware of the tenets of Islam, some basic Islamic etiquette and some of the post WWII issues in the Middle East. All of which is going off topic and doesn't take into account anything in the post I made which you are presumably replying to.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 10:25
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Mughaal, that's a very baseless and illogical conclusion to come to about Iraq. Do you even know what secularism means? I'll define it for you. It means the absence of religion in government administration, and freedom from religious favouritism in public affairs.

By you saying that secularism caused the Iraq war, you are effectively saying that the absence of religion in American government caused the USA to invade Iraq. Do you even realise how absurd that sounds?
 
Your going to have to continue on, dont just stop there. Everything needs a purpose:
you eat because you want to entertain yourself or your hungry
you work because you enjoy it and need money
you play to amuse
 
Point is everything needs a reason, a claim you can boast when someone asks you whats your purpose?
 
Ok, absent religion. Suddenly you have a vacum to fill. What do you fill it with? In the USA, you have democracy and here is an example how:
 
America, mimicing its counterparts 1000 years ago, decides to go on a (GWB's words) Crusade in the Middle East. Were talking about totally restructuring a people's way of life on our bases. Is it good or bad? Senseless or sensible? Reagan tried it but he reported pulled out because of the illogical politics of the ME.
 
Your effectively replacing one ideology with another.
 
Another absence we fill it with is economy.
 
The Ancient Egyptians built pyramids for the glory of their gods (and kings who were gods post partem). The Muslims built fine madrassas and masjids. The christians built churches. The aztecs built pyramids to sacrifice to god.
 
In secular nations they build fine buildings clutteredf in one place called a "downtown". They work 8-10 hrs in a day to keep money flowing in their pockets. Soon they realize energy is going to be a problem. They see all the energy is in a hostile part of the world. They realize they need energy.
 
New reason: were going in for democracy. Not into N Korea, the psychopath who has his people praise him like god and who threatened to bomb the pacific seaboard for whatever reason.
 
No - Iraq - the American backed dictator who fell out of favor when his usefulness was finished (iran-iraq war).
 
Walla, how the human mind thinks.
 
Meaning doesnt matter what you peg your societal concerns on "secularism or religion" . . . you get war.
 
As for saying that secularism doesnt explicitly cause war, but religion does ... please show me where in the books of buddhism or islam or christianity does it say "Go to war, for that beith the 14th commandment".
 
Here let me ask you a better reason, because i already know where your mind is taking you to. Why not attack Honduras? What about Russia, why not attack them? Why not attack China? Why USA? Does the Quran say "Attack USA, for you will be rewarded"? Or do you think its based on politics?


Edited by Mughaal - 08-Dec-2007 at 06:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 10:29
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

 
The only sensible affirmation in this thread is that religion as secularism, in itself, it is not a source for war. There are seemingly two sides here constantly bashing each-other: the anti-religious one and the anti-atheist one. Maybe such issues should be added on the blacklisted topics as they are constantly a source of hate-speech, intolerance and ignorance.
This man has it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 10:39
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


Don't you believe it. They'll just find another reason such as being of a greater social class, going to the right school, being from the right side of the city, earning more money. If someone is inclined to feel superior to others they'll find which ever way suits them best.

Exactly: okay take a religious book: Bible and find a certain reason for killing:
 
Hain and Cabil. 2 brothers like one girl. No religious zealotry here, is there? One killed the other for girl.
 
As long as 2 men remain on the face of this earth, they will fight for whatever reason. you dont need religion to fight. you need emotions, anger, etc.
 
WW1. No religion. Secular ideals caused the man to pull the trigger to kill Ferdinand of Austria.
 
Again, you can do without religion to kill.
 
Heres another example: Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda. Ones nose was bigger. 800.000 dead.
 
Relgions:
crusades
all european wars. etc.
 
Look i dont care for a secular or religious govt. i like the things the way they are. but i wont fill fantasies in my head about religion. if you must, enjoy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 10:49
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Ok, absent religion. Suddenly you have a vacum to fill. What do you fill it with? In the USA, you have democracy and here is an example how:


Another unfounded assumption. Just because something is removed, that doesn't mean something else has to replace it. If you get a cancerous tumour removed, does that mean you have to replace it with another disease? No obviously not.

Quote
America, mimicing its counterparts 1000 years ago, decides to go on a (GWB's words) Crusade in the Middle East. Were talking about totally restructuring a people's way of life on our bases. Is it good or bad? Senseless or sensible? Reagan tried it but he reported pulled out because of the illogical politics of the ME.
 
Your effectively replacing one ideology with another.


The motivation behind the Crusades and the motivation behind Gulf War II are very different, some of the rhetoric is similar - but it doesn't go much further than that.

Quote Your effectively replacing one ideology with another.


No, secularism removes the ideology altogether. It doesn't replace it with anything, people are instead encouraged to explore for themselves what ideology (if any) explains existence for them. This is in contrast in pressuring people to conform to a state sponsored ideology.

[/quote]
Another absence we filll it with is economy.
 
The Ancient Egyptians built pyramids for the glory of their gods (and kings who were gods post partem). The Muslims built fine madrassas and masjids. The christians built churches. The aztecs built pyramids to sacrifice to god.
 
In secular nations they build fine buildings clutteredf in one place called a "downtown". They work 8-10 hrs in a day to keep money flowing in their pockets. Soon they realize energy is going to be a problem. They see all the energy is in a hostile part of the world. They realize they need energy.[/quote]

Nice try, but secularism doesn't cause people to build buildings. People inherently desire construction and growth. That's civilisation itself. So your conclusion here fails, secularism doesn't lead to a country invading the Middle East. Lack of resources affects societies of all ideologies, and those without ideologies.

Quote
New reason: were going in for democracy. Not into N Korea, the psychopath who has his people praise him like god and who threatened to bomb the pacific seaboard for whatever reason.
 
no - iraq - the american backed dictator who fell out of favor when his usefulness was finished (iran-iraq war).
 
walla, how the human mind thinks.


Another attempt, which also fails to show a causal link between secular government and war.

Quote As for saying that secularism doesnt explicitly cause war, but religion does ... please show me where in the books of buddhism or islam or christianity does it say "Go to war, for that beith the 14th commandment".


I've read Deuteronomy in the Old Testament (applies to Christianity and Judaism), the idea that God will made his believers a chosen people and give them the right to carry out not just war but actual genocide against non-believers seems pretty awful. We must also remember that religion is not just what is written down, it is also what is practiced by the leaders who invented the religion to begin with. So it is unsurprising that for the next century after the inception of Islam, that that religion engaged in a headlong campaign to conquer as much of the world as it could. Do you really expect the Bedouins to have gone a fraction of the distance in the absence of religious fervour and inspiration?

Quote Here let me ask you a better reason, because i already know where your mind is taking you to. Why not attack Honduras? What about Russia, why not attack them? Why not attack China? Why USA? DOes the Quran say "Attack USA, for you will be rewarded"? Or do you think its based on politics?


The US attacked Iraq in my mind for one of two reasons. Either they thought they were going to win and make a lot of political and economic capital in the process. Or special interest groups made the government pursue a war it knew was unwinnable, but would profit those same special interest groups.
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Quote If you get a cancerous tumour removed, does that mean you have to replace it with another disease?
With such metaphors do you honestly believe, red clay, that this is a constructive debate and not a place to spill and promote intolerance and hate? Doesn't this ring the bell with some other speeches where the "cancer to be removed" were the Jews or some unwanted "other"? Read CoC sections B 5, 7 and 8 (possibly B 6, too - see appendix for "cultural aspects of a national group" though perhaps this should be enlarged for those cultural aspects which transcend nationality and are perceived as defining for many people in this world, and of course, on this forum).
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Sep-2007 at 12:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 11:48

Constantine, your totally off track - or im not making myself clear. Perhaps others who understand can help you. I dont know if you dont want to understand or you genuinely cant. Im busy now, maybe tonight.

Its almost like your nearsighted.
 
 
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As Cywr (I believe it was him) said in a similar topic, claiming secularism or atheism is to blame for most atrocities in history is like claiming snakes are better than non-snakes, because most deaths are not caused by snake bites.

Besides, before the 18th century atheism was virtually nonexistent, so no pre-18th century atrocities can be ascribed to atheism. Of course that doesn't mean that all pre-18th century atrocities are caused by religion either - that's exactly the point here: not all atrocities that aren't caused by religion are caused by 'non-religion', 'atheism' or 'secularism'. Religion or non-religion has little or nothing to do with the majority of all historical nastyness.
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What idealogy does Secularism promote? In the Western world it's equality, why? Because the idea is that no citizen is better then any other even if a another idealogy promotes it. Governments that a Secular are created so that in the eyes of the law eveyone is seen on equal footing, atleast this is the idea behind it.
 
Foreign Policy is not dictated by Secularism, as Mughaal has been saying. He likes to use the US as an example, but seems to fail to grasp it at all. It's been the Neo-Conservative movement, one that Bush and Cheney are apart of that was driving our foreign policy in recent years. One that also likes to promote itself to Christians, and claims to champion their Pro-Life idealogies, yet still goes out of it's way to attack Iraq as you put Mughaal.
Bush like to use the word "god" and says that he speaks to him often and that he guides him. This isn't what secularism promotes, there wouldn't be a push for pro-life policies, and it's mostly been the Christian Right who are staunch supporters for this war. While the moderates, those against Religion becoming apart of our government, have been protesting this war, obviously for various reasons, but the secular in Western Society seem to be very anti-war, just look up anything about the "Left" and compare to to the "Right" in our politics. Right is usually pro-war and Christian. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 12:31

Red Clay, darwains theory of evolution was that the animals who adapted the most quickly would survive. That is a scientific theory.Darwinism was a Victorian era politcal philosphy which was used to explain/justify colonialism.

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SearchAndDestroy, secularism generally is the belief that certain institutions and activities should be separated from religion. Secularism is not necessarily equality. Communist regimes like those experienced in Eastern Europe or in China are secularist. Any modern state in whose administration, legislation, etc. religion does not participate is secularist. The notion can be extended in past, using it avant la lettre. It can be also extended or even abused, calling any motivation or activity not grounded in or bounded to  religion as secular. A secular philosophy for instance is a rather natural extension of the notion. A secular armed conflict is rather an abuse.
The idea behind this thread is a classic topic here (and in many other forums) - whether most violence in the history of humanity was caused by religion or not. But the approach is often flawed as people use baseless equivocations and redefinitions to change one notion with another until they'll achieve the rhetorical value they need to accuse the other side.


Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Sep-2007 at 12:55
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Quote SearchAndDestroy, secularism generally is the belief that certain institutions and activities should be separated from religion. Secularism it is not equality.
Right and they are the ones that govern the citizens. Citizens don't have to follow rules that are deemed religious in meaning and would interfere with personal lives.
Quote Communist regimes like those experienced in Eastern Europe or in China are secularist
Key word right there, Communist. Communism has it's own book on ideals, much in the same way as religion. But it's different from the US's which is largy Secular too, but the US follows a Capitalism idealogy, which can run with any other. Secularism doesn't promote away of life, thats dictated by a philosophy that it runs alongside of. Though, obviously it won't work with a strong Theocracy.
Quote Any modern state in which administration, legislation, etc. religion does not participate is secularist.
Right, but those in government have the right to be apart of a wide range of beliefs.
Quote A secular philosophy for instance is a rather natural extension of the notion. A secular armed conflict is rather an abuse.
So, I disagree, there isn't any strong philosophy that goes along with Secularism. People don't follow it because there are no teachings or ways of life, they live in it that allows them to follow or be apart of a idealogy. Under it you can be Christian or Muslim. In Communism, it set it's own idealogies, wrote it's own rules, but it was more of a political system championing ideas.
Quote whether most violence in the history of humanity was caused by religion or not.
It's an idealogy that creates conflict. Secularism in Western society is ment to grant freedoms, and thats where it ends and other idealogies pick up.
With Communism, it was about bettering life for the workers, not Secular people. Why? Because there isn't a established way of life for Secular people, being Secular means you can be Christian too.
In the best way I can describe Secularism is by calling it a soft philosphy, in that there aren't set values, or ways of life. It mostly accompanies another Idealogy, atleast this is what I get from looking through history and current politics.
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Quote Right and they are the ones that govern the citizens. Citizens don't have to follow rules that are deemed religious in meaning and would interfere with personal lives.
There are and were societies where religion was part of the social and the personal life. Secularism is a value only for those societies which needed it and developed it (or borrowed it) as such.
 
Quote Key word right there, Communist.
I can say the same thing for any totalitarian regime. Communism is actually a misnomer as a theoretical communist society doesn't have even such thing as the state. Many of the communist countries (especially in the Eastern Europe) were called "Socialist Republics" in the official propaganda kept reminding the people how close they are on their way to communism.
 
Quote
Communism has it's own book on ideals, much in the same way as religion.
You can't find a single man or group on this planet without an ideal. Excluding insane or dead people, of course. Any coherent action follows an ideal, a goal.
 
Quote
But it's different from the US's which is largy Secular too, but the US follows a Capitalism idealogy, which can run with any other.
I don't understand your point. US's democracy as well as USSR's communism are both secular governments. This is undeniable and un-nuanceable. A discussion on capitalist vs communist economy, for instance, doesn't add any additional significance to the fact they are both secular, nor makes one of them a theocracy.
 
Quote So, I disagree, there isn't any strong philosophy that goes along with Secularism. People don't follow it because there are no teachings or ways of life
I have no idea what "strong philosophy" is in this context, nor did I mention it, therefore you're not disagreeing with me. Not to say that not every philosophy's purpose is to teach somebody how to live his life.
 
Quote It's an idealogy that creates conflict.
Every ideology creates conflicts. Even the ideology of freedom and equality.
 
Quote Secularism in Western society is ment to grant freedoms, and thats where it ends and other idealogies pick up.
I very much doubt that. I think that your reply illustrates an overall confusion between the "Western values", having them all mixed in a cocktail and try to make them as undeniable single value. That's a tyrannical ideological approach if anything, against the freedom which it pontificates.
 
Quote Because there isn't a established way of life for Secular people, being Secular means you can be Christian too.
I have no idea what "secular people" means. But if I try to understand it I find an unresolvable contradiction. Secular people - people not bound to religion. How could one be a Christian then? Confused
 
Quote In the best way I can describe Secularism is by calling it a soft philosphy, in that there aren't set values, or ways of life.
You can describe secularism as you like it (to me, those people who compare Communism with religion but cherish Secularism and Capitalism, please also note the capitalization, are religious in the way they use the term), however I recommend you dictionaries and a more rigurous approach without equivocating words to promote some values for an universal truth and state of welfare everyone should be happy to have.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 15:14
Quote There are and were societies where religion was part of the social and the personal life. Secularism is a value only for those societies which needed it and developed it (or borrowed it) as such.
Secularism a value?  The only value is that it effects the entire nation and not personal life. It allows equality in the US amongst religions through law. It makes sure there isn't favortism that a religious backed nation may have.
Quote I can say the same thing for any totalitarian regime.
And what does that prove, that one man is power hungary, how does Secularism foster such thoughts? There aren't any teachings from it.
Quote Communism is actually a misnomer as a theoretical communist society doesn't have even such thing as the state. Many of the communist countries (especially in the Eastern Europe) were called "Socialist Republics" in the official propaganda kept reminding the people how close they are on their way to communism.
In either form it still had it's own teachings based towards one idea with the name Communism or Solcialism for the countries that say they practiced it. There were no Secular idealogies, it's just a meaning of sperating something from religion which means it's a broad definition seeing as it can go with anything.
Quote US's democracy as well as USSR's communism are both secular governments
They both define the way people live though. Communism promotes a society that is equal while Capitalism promotes one of self growth, two different societies, one with the outcome of allowing greater freedom, that being Capitalism, but still both are Secular. The US still has very strong Christian values despite being secular, and athiest are seen as the most untrust worthy of any demographic in the US.
What I'm saying is it's impossible to blame Secularism because there isn't a idealogy to follow on the national level, no one rallies around it.
Quote I have no idea what "strong philosophy" is in this context, nor did I mention it, therefore you're not disagreeing with me. Not to say that not every philosophy's purpose is to teach somebody how to live his life.
Strong as in that it sets values for the people, has teachings, something for people to follow. I just don't see how Secularism has something to follow behind. I used strong because of a lack for a better word. I needed a word that gives a impression on what I'm saying and I thought maybe you could catch on to that, sorry.
Quote Every ideology creates conflicts. Even the ideology of freedom and equality.
Thats what I said. But Secularism is more of a definition. It doesn't have people who are leaders of it, there maybe a Secular group in that it doesn't back a Religion, but it still has it's own idealogy that can be totally opposite of another group. Religion has a few things in common, a supreme being/s and teachings, Secular is a definition to describe something that doesn't have Religious backing.
Quote I very much doubt that. I think that your reply illustrates an overall confusion between the "Western values", having them all mixed in a cocktail and try to make them as undeniable single value.
Religious descrimination is forbidden by law in the US, and the government doesn't favor anyone of religious background. This despite the US government mostly being of Christian background, and the President usually always being Protestant. Even though voted in by Christians, they still have made any laws for absolute Christian rule and values, why? Because we have Secular laws.
Quote I have no idea what "secular people" means. But if I try to understand it I find an unresolvable contradiction. Secular people - people not bound to religion. How could one be a Christian then? Confused
Secular in that they don't believe in pushing their beliefs. I'm not talking about atheist. Like I said, secular is more of a definition, not something to follow. I'd say most Americans are Secular in thinking in that they don't believe in pushing their own Religious values on others, and I believe that comes from our country promoting everyone is equal and not favoring anyone. Sorry, I haven't exactly been writing my thoughts in the best of ways, kind of embarrassing.Embarrassed
Quote You can describe secularism as you like it (to me, those people who compare Communism with religion but cherish Secularism and Capitalism, please also note the capitalization, are religious in the way they use the term),
Secular in the dictionary says relating to something Worldly. Right there means it's just a definition for something thats not religious. It's not something that people follow, it's something that is labeled by it's idealogies.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 16:30
Quote Secularism a value? 
What else could it be? Do you think it can be defined or meaningful for anyone or anything else but humans? Moreover, do you think that all human societies appreciate it?
 
Quote
 It makes sure there isn't favortism that a religious backed nation may have.
Do you think religiousness and backwardness (backwardness related to what, what is the direction the people should go forward?) are correlated?
 
Quote And what does that prove, that one man is power hungary, how does Secularism foster such thoughts? There aren't any teachings from it.
I am not saying that, all I am saying is that secularism is not a garrant for democracy, freedom, capitalism and whatever other equivocations are practiced when you put the US as a reference. Authoritarian (politically, economically) regimes are as secular as any other.
 
Quote There were no Secular idealogies
Those ideologies who have secularism among their core claims, who regard religion irrelevant to the approach or the topic they address.
 
Quote
 it's just a meaning of sperating something from religion which means it's a broad definition seeing as it can go with anything.
Really? Even with pasta? LOL 
 
Quote The US still has very strong Christian values despite being secular, and athiest are seen as the most untrust worthy of any demographic in the US.
I am a bit confused. I don't understand when you talk about people or about the state, or about anything else. It's impossible to have religious values and be secular at the same time, only if you mean a simple coincidence. "Thou shall not kill" is not necessarily a religious value, it can be reached also through ethics or other type of inferences (utilitaristic, for instance). So you can have a secular state's law and a theocratic state's law having a similar position against homicide.
 
Quote What I'm saying is it's impossible to blame Secularism because there isn't a idealogy to follow on the national level, no one rallies around it.
I agree with you on that. However in my view if one praises secularism for freedom and writes it with capitals or he blames it for wars, he commits the same fallacy.
 
Quote Thats what I said. But Secularism is more of a definition.
Primarily yes, but ideologies are created through definitions. Once you say "secularism is good" you have an ideology. It means there's a belief that secularism is good, that there's a value of secularism.
 
Quote Religious descrimination is forbidden by law in the US, and the government doesn't favor anyone of religious background. This despite the US government mostly being of Christian background, and the President usually always being Protestant. Even though voted in by Christians, they still have made any laws for absolute Christian rule and values, why? Because we have Secular laws.
I think here's the aforementioned confusion (equivocation) between individuals and state. 
 
Quote Secular in that they don't believe in pushing their beliefs. I'm not talking about atheist. Like I said, secular is more of a definition, not something to follow. I'd say most Americans are Secular in thinking in that they don't believe in pushing their own Religious values on others, and I believe that comes from our country promoting everyone is equal and not favoring anyone. Sorry, I haven't exactly been writing my thoughts in the best of ways, kind of embarrassing
I think you mean "tolerant people".
 
Quote Secular in the dictionary says relating to something Worldly.
Secularism in most dictionaries I've checked is about a separation of religion (in some institutions or in a philosophical/moral system). The word secular can have much more meanings, it's polysemantic. One of these meanings is "not belonging to a monastic order" which I believe is the one you have interepreted as "worldly".
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Sep-2007 at 16:45
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