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    Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 22:33
Many people here are quite secular in their thinking and many think that religion is the worst bane of mankind and has resulted in many atrocities over the years. I would like to ask them that when they list the biggest atrocities done in modern times they are all done by philosophies rooting from athiesism, Hitler and Nazies atrocities were commited in the name of race theories, stalin's and Mao's atrocities were commited in the name of athiest marxism Pol Pot's crimes were again commited in the name of athiestic philosophies. The real problem with modern athieism is that it suffers badly from the influence of Darwanist thinking by which they feel that they under the pretext of the philosophy of survival of the fitest they can do just about anything and end up being completly anti moral while atleast the a religous person tries to be moral and live a clean life. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 22:52
The thing you forget is that secularism (keeping religion out of government) and atheism (the belief that there is no divine power), do not actually cause deaths. You see, just because someone has a certain belief and then does certain things, that doesn't prove that the belief causes the action. For example, as an analogy, it starts to rain and a dog barks. Does the fact that it starts to rain cause to dog to bark? Probably not, there was more than likely some other cause such as a cat running nearby.
 
Secular ideals and atheism had nothing to do with mass murder. The same cannot be said for a range of Jihads and Crusades waged throughout history. In those instances, there is an undeniable cause and effect relationship between the religious institutions and acts of warfare.
 
Stalin and Mao's atrocities were committed in the name of one thing - quest for personal power. Also, how in the hell do you link Nazism to not being religious and keeping religion out of government? Nazi atrocities were based on a racial superiority complex which had existed long before Darwin arrived on the scene, that was the link between Nazism and the atrocities, not secularism or atheism. Again, you are just assuming that because two things occur at once that one must somehow cause the others, which is totally flawed.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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I dont know how religions cause wars anymore than secular reasons.

See, i dont know of any religion whose focal belief is tokill others. Nor do i know any secular system whose focal belief is to kill others. I believe they can cause harm to other humans, but that isnt their official policy.
 
I think the West had religious wars starting from the Crusades to the WW2 Holocaust. They are tired of religion and want to focus on something else as official policy, so downplay religion and bring up ethnicity or nationality. Suddenly the nation you are born in, a thing you had not the ability to choose, becomes your international identification.
 
Westerners dont understand Islam and Religion. Muslims dont understand Westerners (Christians unofficially) and Secularism. It has to do with our psyche.
 
In the West when you lived under religion (Catholic Church) you were backward. You couldnt protect yourselves from the evil muslims attacking the Byzantine Empire or the Vandal and Frankish Kingdoms. As you began to distance yourself more and more from religion, you got more and more powerful.
 
In Islamic Tradition/HIstory - the more Muslim we were the more powerful we were:
The Ummayad Khilafat
The Abbasid Khilafat
Samanid Empire
Fatimid Empire
Al-Andalus
Mameluke Empire
Dehli Sultanate
Almorabitun
Almohadis
Mali Empire
Songhay Empire
Sultanate of Malacca
Sultanate of Demak
Ilkhanid Empire
Kanem-Bornu Empire
Morrockish Kingdom
Mogul Empire
Safavid Empire
Ottoman Empire
 
You name it, we were the center of the world (besides China). As we became more secular post Khilafat Rashidun we became more degraded; beginning with the First Islamic Civil War: Madinah vs Damascus.
 
Our psyche is totally off the Western Cultural Sphere. Total clash of civilizations.
 
This is why Egypt's Islamic party won the most seats in Egypt, why the Morrocan Islamic Party recently won seats, why Anti-Islam Turkey ultimately chose Islamist Gul to lead the nation, why Pakistan clamours for Islam, and why Islam defeated the Shah of Iran.
 
The Secular regimes: Hosni Mubarik, Pervez Musharraf, Shah Pahlavi, they are all off tune with their people.
 
Its all about the mental psyche.
 
And so the threads will continue by people of Islamic background, and people of Western background will rebut.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 00:08
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

The thing you forget is that secularism (keeping religion out of government) and atheism (the belief that there is no divine power), do not actually cause deaths.
 
Religion doesnt cause deaths either. Only when interests collide do deaths occur.
Today Allan Greenspan announced the Iraq War 2 was a war for oil. We estimated 1,000,000 Iraqis dead.
Go figure. If we have enough of these then well bounce of the nationalist platform too.


Edited by Mughaal - 08-Dec-2007 at 06:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 00:21
 
 
 
       The real problem with modern athieism is that it suffers badly from the influence of Darwanist thinking by which they feel that they under the pretext of the philosophy of survival of the fitest they can do just about anything and end up being completly anti moral while atleast the a religous person tries to be moral and live a clean life. 
 
 
 
Lets see here,    All we have to do is reject evolution and, going by the direction of his post, likely accept Creationism and intelligent design, and we're immediately cleansed.                                                                      
 
Count the number of recognized "religious conflicts" in the last 6-800 years and your examples will quickly lose significance.   Compare the number of innocents slaughtered in the name of one religion or another and your boys really lose out.
 
By anti moral I assume you mean any one who doesn't believe as you
 
 
 a religous person tries to be moral and live a clean life. 
 You mean like Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker Big%20smile Oh, and don;'t leave out the right Reverend James Jones.
 
 
It's late I'm very tired and in a very good mood or I would have handled this in a much less jovial manner.  There are others here who will be less kind. 
 
We here are of many beliefs, and where we will often debate on aspects of those beliefs, we always respect everyone's right to there own system of beliefs.
 
A word of advice if your going to make posts such as this.  First read the Code of Conduct.  2nd  Come armed with statistics you can source.  Especially in a thread such as this half a**ing is like bringing a minicoop to a tank battle.
 
Last word-  Atheists do lose out on an important thing though,  by rejecting religion and the existence of god they deny themselves the opportunity to feel superior to others. 
 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 16-Sep-2007 at 00:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 00:49
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

The thing you forget is that secularism (keeping religion out of government) and atheism (the belief that there is no divine power), do not actually cause deaths.
 
Religion doesnt cause deaths either. Only when interests collide do deaths occur.
 
Today Allan Greenspan announced the Iraq War 2 was a war for oil. We estimated 1,000,000 Iraqis dead.
 
Go figure. If we have enough of these then well bounce of the nationalist platform too.
 
Why do you bring up Iraq? It has no relevance to this thread.
 
And perhaps you hadn't read history, but religious movements do result in deaths. Muhammad's call to campaign against Persia and Byzantium in the name of religion? The Crusaders setting out to the shout of "Deus lo volt" - "God Wills It!". The mass suicides at Wako? Are these things all lost on you? So yes, religion does sometimes result in death which otherwise would not have occurred.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000 bilal_ali_2000 wrote:

atleast the a religous person tries to be moral and live a clean life. 
 
so do I, although i'm not religous.
The enlightenment and the humanism don't have killing of brothers and sisters on it's agenda.
 
I for my part don't try to force others to think in my way, like the most
(Sorry, presed the update button) deputies of religions are doing.
 
Many of the wars you listed were "managed" like religous wars, with bigotry and with a leader , bloody similar to god.
 
What's about the term Holy war"? How can a war be holy ? To slaughter innocents enjoys god?
 
But, for you bilal, nearly every war held on this planet since the beginning was a war about economical and politcal power. Faiths and Gods were only used to make the reasons easier to understand for even the very last simple man.
 
What makes me so worried is, that God has obviously no opportunity to arrest this.
 
I think the mankind has suffered too much from this hypocrites.Time to replace god, cause he is not in the possition to end all this distress on earth.
 
May god bless you all ( might be, you can't wait a bit til this second).
 
 


Edited by ulrich von hutten - 16-Sep-2007 at 01:21

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Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000 bilal_ali_2000 wrote:

Many people here are quite secular in their thinking and many think that religion is the worst bane of mankind and has resulted in many atrocities over the years. I would like to ask them that when they list the biggest atrocities done in modern times they are all done by philosophies rooting from athiesism, Hitler and Nazies atrocities were commited in the name of race theories, stalin's and Mao's atrocities were commited in the name of athiest marxism Pol Pot's crimes were again commited in the name of athiestic philosophies. The real problem with modern athieism is that it suffers badly from the influence of Darwanist thinking by which they feel that they under the pretext of the philosophy of survival of the fitest they can do just about anything and end up being completly anti moral while atleast the a religous person tries to be moral and live a clean life. 
 
I wouldn't not say that Hitler and the Nazis were atheistics. On the contrary, they are better defined like pagans. In doubt, just look at the rituals of the SS. They were believers, although in an evil religion that tried to reproduce the believes of the ancient germanic people of Europe.
 
In the case of Stalin and Mao, I won't say that atheism pushed theirs ideologies but rather it was comunism. Comunism is another form of dogmatic belief that, like religions, creates a biassed worldwiev in people. In a very real sense, communists, particularly fanatics, belong to something very similar to a religious sect. Atheistics, on the other hand, are usually isolated people.
 
With respect to darwinism, I won't blame Darwin himself but Spencer. The later, was the creator of Social Darwinism and coined the phrase "survival of the fitest". Eutanasia, Social Darwinism and the crimes of the twentieth century all come from the same ideology founded by Spencer, and where man tries to play God. Is that a synthom of atheism? I don't think so, because many religious believers share the same ideas than atheistics on this matter. The problem is "social darwinism" and not "atheism".
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
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People do not use atheism to go to war, while people have been killing each other in the name of Christianity and Islam for centuries...Tyrants dont kill in the name of "Atheism" (at least I dont know of any who did)
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sorry, reply completed. See above.
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 02:56
ConstantineXI, Muhammad did not call for war against Byzantium and Persia that would be his successors.
 
And red clay where did anybody mention creationism or intelligent design? Darwinism is completely different from evolution.
 
As for the topic at hand, well its true that the most violent and bloody conflicts in history did not have religion as the cause, indeed they were between nations who were democratic and industrialised. But, it is undeniable that wars over religion have been disasterous for all concerned. Perhaps it would be better to state that wars start when there is disagreement over something, be it religion or anything else.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 03:08
Originally posted by Constantine Constantine wrote:

The thing you forget is that secularism (keeping religion out of government) and atheism (the belief that there is no divine power), do not actually cause deaths. You see, just because someone has a certain belief and then does certain things, that doesn't prove that the belief causes the action. For example, as an analogy, it starts to rain and a dog barks. Does the fact that it starts to rain cause to dog to bark? Probably not, there was more than likely some other cause such as a cat running nearby.
 
Secular ideals and atheism had nothing to do with mass murder. The same cannot be said for a range of Jihads and Crusades waged throughout history. In those instances, there is an undeniable cause and effect relationship between the religious institutions and acts of warfare.
 
Stalin and Mao's atrocities were committed in the name of one thing - quest for personal power.

You had me in full agreement until the second paragraph. Stalin committed atrocities, including against non-atheist religions, for personal power. This is no different to the Pope calling a crusade, usually (but not always) against other religions, to increase his personal power. Basically, "just because someone has a certain belief and then does certain things, that doesn't prove that the belief causes the action" applies in exactly the same way to atheism, as it does to religion.
The rhetoric doesn't define the action. If GW calls for a war to bring freedom, it doesn't actually mean freedom is responsible for the war. If he says that Democratic governments can't tolerate countrty x's existence, it doesn't mean democracy is violent. Niether is banning religion in russia a crime of atheism, or launching a crusade of jihad a crime of christianity or islam
Originally posted by Red Red wrote:

Last word-  Atheists do lose out on an important thing though,  by rejecting religion and the existence of god they deny themselves the opportunity to feel superior to others.

Don't you believe it. They'll just find another reason such as being of a greater social class, going to the right school, being from the right side of the city, earning more money. If someone is inclined to feel superior to others they'll find which ever way suits them best.
Originally posted by mamikon mamikon wrote:

Tyrants dont kill in the name of "Atheism"

Tell that to the Russian clergy.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 16-Sep-2007 at 03:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 03:16
Sparten, I was under the impression that the first Islamic incursions into the Byzantine Empire did occur during Muhammad's time, such that Abu Bakr was left with the legacy of continuing these as the first one had been defeated.

wikipedia says this on the situation when Abu Bakr came to power:
Quote Abu Bakr's immediate task was to avenge a recent defeat by Byzantine (or Eastern Roman Empire) forces, although he first had to put down a rebellion by Arab tribes in an episode known as the Ridda wars, or "Wars of Apostasy"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Rise_of_empire_.28632.E2.80.93750.29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 05:25
Of aal the ways one could start a discussion about the subject, this must be close to the most moronic one possible. Perhaps in the future, you could be so kind as to not blast out your personal bias for all to see and take offence. We would not tolerate such an attack on any religion lightly, so why do you presumt it is ok to be so insulting to others?
 
Ideologies kill. Ideologies cause wars, Ideologies make reasonable humans into crazy fanatics. Religions are ideologies, political movements, be they communist, fascist, or indeed democratic, are ideologies too. Fortunately, the freak effect of ideologies affects a small portion of the people involved in the movement. Fortunately, only a few religioous people turn suicide bomber or crusader, only a few turn dictator/mass murderer. But these few have rather a large impact on the group as a whole.
 
Atheism is not an ideology. It is actually the absence of a religious ideology. This does not mean there is also an absence of any other ideology, and it does not mean there is absence of any basic values.
 
In fact, I think it is not possible to be free of all and any form of ideology. Humans are group animals. We want to feel like we belong to a group, have things in common with a group. Ideologies are these groups. Anyone without ideology can be considered to be outside of society. Because ideologies give us a frame of reference how to live our lives, how to hope, what to fight for. One without an ideology is a miserable person indeed, without hope, or without something to live for.
 
The basic mistake made by Bilal here is to assume that one form of ideology is inherently better than another, which is a stunning example of biased tunnelvision. Just because he believes something, automatically makes all else wrong, or untrue. Because his religion gives him a reference on how to live, he automatically assumes that those who do not follow his religion must be living wrong. The idea that there are other thruths but his own when it comes to how to live ones live properly has not yat occured to him. And that is exactly the frame of mind that causes wars over ideologies.

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 06:35
Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

You had me in full agreement until the second paragraph. Stalin committed atrocities, including against non-atheist religions, for personal power. This is no different to the Pope calling a crusade, usually (but not always) against other religions, to increase his personal power. Basically, "just because someone has a certain belief and then does certain things, that doesn't prove that the belief causes the action" applies in exactly the same way to atheism, as it does to religion.
The rhetoric doesn't define the action. If GW calls for a war to bring freedom, it doesn't actually mean freedom is responsible for the war. If he says that Democratic governments can't tolerate countrty x's existence, it doesn't mean democracy is violent. Niether is banning religion in russia a crime of atheism, or launching a crusade of jihad a crime of christianity or islam


Regarding the Pope, do you honestly believe that a Crusade would have taken place had the irresistable promise of remission of sins not been offered? To a medieval man, it was the ultimate prize, and only an ideology like religion could offer that. Also look at the nature of the Crusades: intolerant, fanatical and pitiless. Conventions of military honour and decency were considered irrelevant because the fight was against the "unbeliever". The Crusades would never have occurred, or occurred with the degree of brutality they did, had it not been for religious influence.

Did Stalin attack the religious authorities in Russia because secularism calls for it, or because they were a vestige of the previous power structure which would be automatically opposed to his interests? Stalin supported partisan bodies in WWII which were formed with Orthodox Christianity as a common practice within them, simply because such partisans were useful to his interests. With Stalin, it really did come down to what kept him in control. Just as religion has existed for thousands of years as a controlling institution aligned with state power brokers, in the Soviet era it was an old vestige that no longer served state purposes.

With your example of GWB, there is a point to be made about claiming something as your ideology and then doing what is contrary to that ideology. But GWB will direct wars on the basis of state or clique interests anyway, what he claims it in the name of doesn't necessarily cause it. On the other hand, as I have stated earlier in this thread, there are instances when religion acts as the primary cause behind violence and war - something I have yet to see atheism or secularism cause.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 09:29
 
Sparten wrote
 
And red clay where did anybody mention creationism or intelligent design? Darwinism is completely different from evolution.
 
 
Gee, I must have been confused by Darwin's Theory of Evolution and his reference to Natural Selection, "survival of the fittest".
 
 
I mentioned Creationism, as when someone attacks Darwinist theory that is usually the brick they are standing on.
 
So enlighten me, how, in the context of religion vs atheism, is Darwinism "completely different from evolution"?
 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 16-Sep-2007 at 09:44
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Communism, fascism, etc. are not religions. If you do not understand why check a dictionary. Or better, scholarship. Also religion and ideology are not mutually inter-changeable. Same advice as the previous applies.
 
The only sensible affirmation in this thread is that religion as secularism, in itself, it is not a source for war. There are seemingly two sides here constantly bashing each-other: the anti-religious one and the anti-atheist one. Maybe such issues should be added on the blacklisted topics as they are constantly a source of hate-speech, intolerance and ignorance.


Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Sep-2007 at 09:41
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[ There are seemingly two sides here constantly bashing each-other: the anti-religious one and the anti-atheist one. Maybe such issues should be added on the blacklisted topics as they are constantly a source of hate-speech, intolerance and ignorance. [/QUOTE]
 
 
 
Perhaps these are the reasons these topics should be openly discussed.
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Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

The thing you forget is that secularism (keeping religion out of government) and atheism (the belief that there is no divine power), do not actually cause deaths.
 
Religion doesnt cause deaths either. Only when interests collide do deaths occur.
 
Today Allan Greenspan announced the Iraq War 2 was a war for oil. We estimated 1,000,000 Iraqis dead.
 
Go figure. If we have enough of these then well bounce of the nationalist platform too.
 
Why do you bring up Iraq? It has no relevance to this thread.
 
And perhaps you hadn't read history, but religious movements do result in deaths. Muhammad's call to campaign against Persia and Byzantium in the name of religion? The Crusaders setting out to the shout of "Deus lo volt" - "God Wills It!". The mass suicides at Wako? Are these things all lost on you? So yes, religion does sometimes result in death which otherwise would not have occurred.
Well, your going to have to open the windows to your brain; because nothing will ever get through if they remain shut.
 
My stance is anything causes wars. Religion or Secularism (WW1/WW2).
 
Take this incident, in the view that this affair has the occurence of both a nationalist and secularist agenda.
 
The Crusades: 1000-1300. On the East Islam was faced with Christian Crusaders fighting for religion, on the West it was faced with Mongol Hordes fighting for booty.
 
So yes, open your mind to understand what im saying.
 
Iraq War was in reference to Secularism causing 1.000.000+++ deaths.
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Originally posted by mamikon mamikon wrote:

People do not use atheism to go to war, while people have been killing each other in the name of Christianity and Islam for centuries...Tyrants dont kill in the name of "Atheism" (at least I dont know of any who did)
 
Nah, they look for oil, natural gas, resources, etc.
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