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Forum LockedAscanian Dynasty, world's longest lived dynasty!

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 18:24
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Cyrus, no Scandinavian warrior looked like your picture. I would expect a school child to make the mistake of using a cartoon or Hollywood picture, but not someone who claims to be a PhD!
Do you think that is the real photo of Rustam?! We are talking about mythical figures and these are imaginary pictures of them, I really don't know what you mean!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 18:27
Excuse me, did I misunderstand something?? Germanic warriors are...mythological figures?? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 18:52
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Cyrus, no Scandinavian warrior looked like your picture. I would expect a school child to make the mistake of using a cartoon or Hollywood picture, but not someone who claims to be a PhD!
Do you think that is the real photo of Rustam?! We are talking about mythical figures and these are imaginary pictures of them, I really don't know what you mean!!

Are you serious? I mean, really. Those are two comic book pictures that happen to look like each other, and you use the similarity as an argument that Germanic and Iranian mythologies have the same root! You used it in two threads even. If Spiderman happened to look like a Chinese god would you argue that Chinese and Americans share the same ancestors?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 19:00
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

first of all, red hair is no evidence for anything.
I feel sorry for myself, that you just read this word from my very long post! Ouch
 
Quote your methodology makes Nazi claims about Aryan origins look like highest science.
The fact is that Germans are also an Aryan people, before Nazism Germans were proud of it but after the Nazi racism, it seems to be a disgrace for them!

Quote secondly, according to your theory, Turks do not exist. why? people always claim, Turks of Anatolia are not Turks but Turkified. ok, for a moment let's accept this. then, who Turkified them? Turks from Mawrannahr. so! people say Transoxanian Turks are not Turks but in fact Turkified Iranians Ok also let's accept this as well, so where did they come from? they came from the east but further east are just Mongols who aren't Turk and in the North are just more Siberian and Finno-Ugric people. so it's funny that those powerfull original Turks who are nowhere to be found Turkified Transoxanian Iranians and those Turkified Transoxianians further Turkified the Anatolians... PigShocked
I think our Turkish member can certainly give a firm reply to your post, I don't know who claims Transoxiana which was called "Fararud" ("Beyond the River") by Iranians, was just the land of Iranian peoples!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 19:23
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

first of all, red hair is no evidence for anything.

I feel sorry for myself, that you just read this word from my very long post! Ouch

 

Quote your methodology makes Nazi claims about Aryan origins look like highest science.

The fact is that Germans are also an Aryan people, before Nazism Germans were proud of it but after the Nazi racism, it seems to be a disgrace for them!
Quote secondly, according to your theory, Turks do not exist. why? people always claim, Turks of Anatolia are not Turks but Turkified. ok, for a moment let's accept this. then, who Turkified them? Turks from Mawrannahr. so! people say Transoxanian Turks are not Turks but in fact Turkified Iranians Ok also let's accept this as well, so where did they come from? they came from the east but further east are just Mongols who aren't Turk and in the North are just more Siberian and Finno-Ugric people. so it's funny that those powerfull original Turks who are nowhere to be found Turkified Transoxanian Iranians and those Turkified Transoxianians further Turkified the Anatolians... PigShocked

I think our Turkish member can certainly give a firm reply to your post, I don't know who claims Transoxiana which was called "Fararud" ("Beyond the River") by Iranians, was just the land of Iranian peoples!!


Germans are NOT aryan. Iranians, Indians (most) and Gypsies are aryan.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 20:54
What is the problems about those two imaginary pictures? About Rustam, according to Shahname, we know he had red-hair and usually wore horned helmets, you can see him with the same characteristics in the early Persian miniatures too, like http://shahnameh.eu/rostam2.JPG & http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/c4/c20188.jpg (Rustam and Sohrab)
 
Do you want to say Germanic people hadn't red hair or didn't wear horned helmets?
 
One place that famously shows people wearing horned helmets are pre-Viking age helmet panel illustrations. These small embossed images, found both on the Sutton Hoo helmet and on some Vendel helmets, show figures in distinctive long wrap-over coats with wide lapels, holding spears and wearing helmets with large curved bird's heads.
 
The Oseberg Tapestry has another famous illustration of someone with a horned helmet. In this case the figure is even more like the traditional horned Viking we expect.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 21:22
Originally posted by Pomak Pomak wrote:

Germans are NOT aryan. Iranians, Indians (most) and Gypsies are aryan.
You probably know that from the old times Iranians and Indians themselves believe something about the physical characteristics of Aryan people (like blue-eyes, blonde-hair, ...) which was rare in Iran and India, but mostly in the Germanic lands.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 22:04
And, if you read the Iliad, you'll find the same thing said about the Mycenians (early Greeks).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 00:01
Cyrus why do you think having Red hair means a German connection?

Kirgiz, a Turkic peoples were described in Ancient Chinese sources as having Red hair and coloured eyes but this doesn't make them German.

I don't understand what your trying to proove?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 00:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

What is the problems about those two imaginary pictures? About Rustam, according to Shahname, we know he had red-hair and usually wore horned helmets, you can see him with the same characteristics in the early Persian miniatures too, like http://shahnameh.eu/rostam2.JPG & http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/c4/c20188.jpg (Rustam and Sohrab)
 
Do you want to say Germanic people hadn't red hair or didn't wear horned helmets?
 
One place that famously shows people wearing horned helmets are pre-Viking age helmet panel illustrations. These small embossed images, found both on the Sutton Hoo helmet and on some Vendel helmets, show figures in distinctive long wrap-over coats with wide lapels, holding spears and wearing helmets with large curved bird's heads.
 
The Oseberg Tapestry has another famous illustration of someone with a horned helmet. In this case the figure is even more like the traditional horned Viking we expect.
One problem Cyrus, ritual helmets are different than helmets worn into battle.  The simple fact of the matter is that Viking/Germanic warriors didn't wear horned helmets into battle.  Is there a reason you fail to realize/mention the fact that no horned Germanic helmet has ever been found.  Could you tell me in this depiction, made in the 12th Century, of a Danish army where the horned helmets are?

  

There are none in this picture.  For more reading about the "horned helmet issue" see this answer from straightdope.com.  I have pointed out in another thread that this is a fairly modern invention.  I also pointed out that the original pictures you posted were from a Comic book which is hardly an historical source.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 06:53
Originally posted by khshayathiya khshayathiya wrote:

And, if you read the Iliad, you'll find the same thing said about the Mycenians (early Greeks).
Where? What? Do Greeks, like Iranians, believe that the real Greeks are those who have red hairs and blue eyes?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 07:30
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Cyrus why do you think having Red hair means a German connection?

Kirgiz, a Turkic peoples were described in Ancient Chinese sources as having Red hair and coloured eyes but this doesn't make them German.

I don't understand what your trying to proove?
They could be some Scythian Immigrants, just search for Kyrgyz: http://nontype.com/01/kyrgyz.jpg
 
 
Herodotus says about Scythians: "They are a large and powerful nation: they have all blue eyes, and red hair" (Herodotus, Histories 4. 108)
 
Do you believe him to be also a Kyrgyz?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 07:45
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

One problem Cyrus, ritual helmets are different than helmets worn into battle.  The simple fact of the matter is that Viking/Germanic warriors didn't wear horned helmets into battle.  Is there a reason you fail to realize/mention the fact that no horned Germanic helmet has ever been found.  Could you tell me in this depiction, made in the 12th Century, of a Danish army where the horned helmets are?

  

There are none in this picture.  For more reading about the "horned helmet issue" see this answer from straightdope.com.  I have pointed out in another thread that this is a fairly modern invention.  I also pointed out that the original pictures you posted were from a Comic book which is hardly an historical source.
I never said that ancient Iranian soldiers wore horned helmet into battle, as we read in Shahnameh, Rustam could be distinguished from all other Iranian soldiers in his huge army by his horned helmet, so it was just symbolic, not a common used helmet, anyway we see the most ancient real horned helmet have been found in the Germanic lands:
 
 
A pair of bronze horned helmets from the later Bronze Age (dating to ca. 900-1100 BC) were found near Viksø, Denmark in 1942.[1] Another early find, dating to ca. 800 BC, are two figurines of men with horned helmets, found in Zealand, Denmark.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 08:29

Originally posted by khshayathiya khshayathiya wrote:

And, if you read the Iliad, you'll find the same thing said about the Mycenians (early Greeks).

And Celts if you look at some archaeological finds, you'll definitely spot those horned helmets. It's quite funny, that as a PhD (even though your degree is in Iranian history) you never heard of the Viking Age hornet helmet misconception.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 08:35
Red hair, cartoon horned helmets...what's next??LOL
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 10:09
Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Red hair, cartoon horned helmets...what's next??LOL
 
We're eagerly awaiting your contribution to the issue... Bowing
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 10:10
Horned helmets are present in a much wider ethno-geographical area, as other have said above.

Italic helmets:


Celtic helmet (from Britain):


Celtic helmet (from Galatia, Central Anatolia):



It has to do with rendering the person wearing it more fearsome in battle. Others prefer birds of prey or a horse's mane. It does in no way demonstrate related ethnicity.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 20:03
As I mentioned the most ancient horned helmets have been found in the Germanic lands, the oldest Celtic one dates to at least 1,000 years after them:
 
A pre-Roman Celtic bronze helmet, dating to ca. 100 BC, was found in the River Thames, in England. Its 'horns', different from those of the earlier finds, are straight and conical.
 
Writing is said to have been invented in Mesopotamia, so people who lived in this region and nearby areas have the longest recorded history, but it can't be the reason that you say these peoples have also a longer cultural history, I myself believe Iranians, however have a longer recorded history than the Germanic peoples, but the origin of their culture should be searched in the Germanic lands and nearby areas.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 21:00
More about red hair:
 

The mystery of China’s celtic mummies: http://www.bbc.co.uk/oxford/content/articles/2005/10/04/saltman.shtml
 
Solid as a warrior of the Caledonii tribe, the man’s hair is reddish brown flecked with grey, framing high cheekbones, a long nose, full lips and a ginger beard. When he lived three thousand years ago, he stood six feet tall, and was buried wearing a red twill tunic and tartan leggings. He looks like a Bronze Age European. In fact, he’s every inch a Celt. Even his DNA says so.
His discovery provides an unexpected connection between east and west and some valuable clues to early European history.
 

and read about Iranian red-haired from Ascanian period in BBC Oxford: http://www.bbc.co.uk/oxford/content/articles/2005/10/04/saltman.shtml
 
 
After battling Rome for centuries, the Parthians had defeated Alexander the Great’s successors and had conquered most of the Middle East and southwest Asia.   They controlled the legendary Silk Road.
They also mined for salt.
And one day 1700 years ago a man was there in the heart of this empire.  A miner.  Maybe he was working amongst his own townspeople, so the Zanjan hole in the ground which was to become his grave was the most familiar site in the world to him.  Maybe though he came from its furthest reaches - Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan.. Russia.. And he was among strangers.
He had long hair and a beard.  He was wearing his leather shoes and woollen cloak – it was probably cold in the mine.  The salt used to get in his ears, but he had a stick to clean them with.
He knew somebody with short red hair, by sight as least.   And he must have seen two other men that day, perhaps they were his friends.  Apart from their faces, the last things he saw before he died were his tools - a knife, grind stones, sling stones and ropes.
 
 

Bahram Radan, one of the most famous Iranian actors
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 21:03
Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:

Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Red hair, cartoon horned helmets...what's next??LOL
 
We're eagerly awaiting your contribution to the issue... Bowing
 
But Hagar the Horrible wore one, so it must be true! Wink
 
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