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Forum LockedAscanian Dynasty, world's longest lived dynasty!

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 21:09
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

You, Cyrus, are aware that the name Ascanian - when dealing with the German Aristocratic House - comes from the name of a castle and not the name of a people.  One site I found said it was named for the town of Aschersleben.  As you can see this has no bearing on the conversation at hand.


*Edit:
The name Albert the Bear comes not from the name of the region or rightly the Aristocratic House, but from his character traits.  It should also be noted that he was not the founder of the House of Ascanian, which was founded in 1036.  Albert the Bear was not born until c.1100-1118.  The founder can probably be said to be the earliest known member of the House of Ascanian, Esiko, Count of Ballenstedt.  Keep in mind that Albert had a father, Odo I, who was also a member of this House.  Here is a family tree from the official House of Anhalt/Ascanian webpage.
Name of a castle, lake, city, ... could be also derived from Ascanian, even the name of Eskio that, as you say, was the founder of this dynasty in Germany, but the name "Ascanian", like the word "Saksen", was certainly older than all of them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 21:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Name of a castle, lake, city, ... could be also derived from Ascanian, even the name of Eskio that, as you say, was the founder of this dynasty in Germany, but the name "Ascanian", like the word "Saksen", was certainly older than all of them.

Ascanian is a Latinization of Aschersleben, there's no room for doubt of that whatsoever. Again you speculate without checking up the sources.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 02:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

You, Cyrus, are aware that the name Ascanian - when dealing with the German Aristocratic House - comes from the name of a castle and not the name of a people.  One site I found said it was named for the town of Aschersleben.  As you can see this has no bearing on the conversation at hand.


*Edit:
The name Albert the Bear comes not from the name of the region or rightly the Aristocratic House, but from his character traits.  It should also be noted that he was not the founder of the House of Ascanian, which was founded in 1036.  Albert the Bear was not born until c.1100-1118.  The founder can probably be said to be the earliest known member of the House of Ascanian, Esiko, Count of Ballenstedt.  Keep in mind that Albert had a father, Odo I, who was also a member of this House.  Here is a family tree from the official House of Anhalt/Ascanian webpage.
Name of a castle, lake, city, ... could be also derived from Ascanian, even the name of Eskio that, as you say, was the founder of this dynasty in Germany, but the name "Ascanian", like the word "Saksen", was certainly older than all of them.
The problem with your comment is that Ascanian is clearly a Latinization of Aschersleben, as another poster has commented.  It could also be a take on the name of the founder Esiko.  Furthermore, it also has no connection to the word "Saksen" as you would have us believe.  Next time please provide sources for your claims, specifically when trying to make connection like you did in the original post regarding Albert the Bear.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 12:47
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Name of a castle, lake, city, ... could be also derived from Ascanian, even the name of Eskio that, as you say, was the founder of this dynasty in Germany, but the name "Ascanian", like the word "Saksen", was certainly older than all of them.

Ascanian is a Latinization of Aschersleben, there's no room for doubt of that whatsoever. Again you speculate without checking up the sources.
You are wrong, Aschersleben is a German compound word which means the land where Ascanians (German Askanier) live.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 12:51
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

You are wrong, Aschersleben is a German compound word which means the land where Ascanians (German Askanier) live.

Source please. To clarify, give me a source clearly stating that Ascher is refering to earlier Ascanians. Online German sources on medieval dynasties clearly states the dynasty took the name from the castle, and not the other way around as you claim.

I know you are wrong, but I want to see from where you got this. I'm guessing you made it up, as usual, but I'm eager to be proven wrong.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 11-Mar-2009 at 12:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 12:55
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

You, Cyrus, are aware that the name Ascanian - when dealing with the German Aristocratic House - comes from the name of a castle and not the name of a people.  One site I found said it was named for the town of Aschersleben.  As you can see this has no bearing on the conversation at hand.


*Edit:
The name Albert the Bear comes not from the name of the region or rightly the Aristocratic House, but from his character traits.  It should also be noted that he was not the founder of the House of Ascanian, which was founded in 1036.  Albert the Bear was not born until c.1100-1118.  The founder can probably be said to be the earliest known member of the House of Ascanian, Esiko, Count of Ballenstedt.  Keep in mind that Albert had a father, Odo I, who was also a member of this House.  Here is a family tree from the official House of Anhalt/Ascanian webpage.
Name of a castle, lake, city, ... could be also derived from Ascanian, even the name of Eskio that, as you say, was the founder of this dynasty in Germany, but the name "Ascanian", like the word "Saksen", was certainly older than all of them.
The problem with your comment is that Ascanian is clearly a Latinization of Aschersleben, as another poster has commented.  It could also be a take on the name of the founder Esiko.  Furthermore, it also has no connection to the word "Saksen" as you would have us believe.  Next time please provide sources for your claims, specifically when trying to make connection like you did in the original post regarding Albert the Bear.
Please don't talk about the sources, your posts in "original inhabitants of ancient England" thread obviousely show that you never believe what historical sources say.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 13:31
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

You are wrong, Aschersleben is a German compound word which means the land where Ascanians (German Askanier) live.

Source please. To clarify, give me a source clearly stating that Ascher is refering to earlier Ascanians. Online German sources on medieval dynasties clearly states the dynasty took the name from the castle, and not the other way around as you claim.

I know you are wrong, but I want to see from where you got this. I'm guessing you made it up, as usual, but I'm eager to be proven wrong.
I don't deny that the dynasty could take the name from a famous ancient castle but Aschersleben is not the name of the castle, is it? It is clear that you wanted to say Iranian "Ascanian" couldn't be related to German "Ascanian" because the second one is a totally changed form of a very different German word in Latin, but you know yourself that you replaced the name of the town instead of the castle to show it!!
Anyway it is important to know where Ascanian castle, like the Ascanian Lake, took the name from? We see similar to the Assyrian word, the Hebrew name of Germany was also "Ashkenaz".


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 11-Mar-2009 at 13:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 13:42
I'm still waiting for your source.



Edited by Styrbiorn - 11-Mar-2009 at 13:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 14:31
Quote Anyway it is important to know where Ascanian castle, like the Ascanian Lake, took the name from?


It is, indeed, important. Perhaps you would care to look in a dictonary, to see that Asche in German means "Ash", so the name of the place might record an great fire, as that is not an uncommon practice.

Quote but you know yourself that you replaced the name of the town instead of the castle to show it!!


That's not what the Lexicon der Mittelalters (Band I) says:

"Die Bezeichnung ASKANIER für die vornehmlich im am NO-Harz gelegenen (Nord-)Schwabengau begüterten und noch im frühen 13. Jahrhundert in "schwäbischen" Rechtsbezügen (Sachsenspiegel-Vorrede) lebenden Dynasten entwickelte sich seit dem frühen 13. Jahrhundert aus der Latinisierung des Namens ihres Burgsitzes Aschersleben (Ascharia) sowie späterhin als mythologisierende Antikisierung aus dem Namen Ascanius (Sohn des Aeneas)." (text taken from here)

Your accusation is without foundation. The German site Aschersleben (a castle around which a civic community flourished) was Latinised as Ascharia. There were not two communities, one called Aschersleben and the other Ascania.

Sometime afterwards, after learning to read Latin, that is, they found in Vergil a son of Aeneas whose name was Ascanius. Because it was trendy to give yourself a very old origin the Ascharian house decided to call themselves Ascanian in stead.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:25

If you can ignore the great Romans for a while then we will see that there are some other sources on this issue  too, for example we see some hundreds years before the foundation of the Ascanian dynasty in Germany, Jews called Germany "Ashkenaz",  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews they were a people who themselves lived there: >> Jews have lived in Germany, or "Ashkenaz", at least since the early 4th century. << What was the name of Ashkenaz? >> The name originally applied to the Scythians (Ishkuz), who were called Ashkuza in Assyrian inscriptions, and lake Ascanius and the region Ascania in Anatolia derive their names from this group. Ashkenaz in later Hebrew tradition became identified with the peoples of Germany, and in particular to the area along the Rhine where the Alamanni tribe once lived (compare the French and Spanish words Allemagne and Alemania, respectively, for Germany). <<

It is certainly not strange that the Alani-tribe of the Scythians (Alamanni) who conquered part of Armenia in the 7th century BC, were called "Armani" by the Persians ("l->r", there were no l sound in the Old Persian language), about the name of Armenia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia_(name) but they themselves called their land "Saksen", as Strabo in the first century BC mentioned:
 
"The Sacae (Scythians) acquired possession of the best land in Armenia, which they left named after themselves, Sacasene;" (Strabo, Geography: 11.8.1: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Strab.+11.8.4 )
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:


It is certainly not strange that the Alani-tribe of the Scythians (Alamanni) who conquered part of Armenia in the 7th century BC, were called "Armani" by the Persians ("l->r", there were no l sound in the Old Persian language), about the name of Armenia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia_(name) but they themselves called their land "Saksen", as Strabo in the first century BC mentioned:


now cut the crap, seriously! the ethymological origin of the Alemanni is well known. by now your posts look like the miseducated posts of a rambling lunatic, if you want every single person of this forum pissed off and losing respect of your person you're on a good way and you officially achieved it with me with this post!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:41
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

You, Cyrus, are aware that the name Ascanian - when dealing with the German Aristocratic House - comes from the name of a castle and not the name of a people.  One site I found said it was named for the town of Aschersleben.  As you can see this has no bearing on the conversation at hand.


*Edit:
The name Albert the Bear comes not from the name of the region or rightly the Aristocratic House, but from his character traits.  It should also be noted that he was not the founder of the House of Ascanian, which was founded in 1036.  Albert the Bear was not born until c.1100-1118.  The founder can probably be said to be the earliest known member of the House of Ascanian, Esiko, Count of Ballenstedt.  Keep in mind that Albert had a father, Odo I, who was also a member of this House.  Here is a family tree from the official House of Anhalt/Ascanian webpage.
Name of a castle, lake, city, ... could be also derived from Ascanian, even the name of Eskio that, as you say, was the founder of this dynasty in Germany, but the name "Ascanian", like the word "Saksen", was certainly older than all of them.
The problem with your comment is that Ascanian is clearly a Latinization of Aschersleben, as another poster has commented.  It could also be a take on the name of the founder Esiko.  Furthermore, it also has no connection to the word "Saksen" as you would have us believe.  Next time please provide sources for your claims, specifically when trying to make connection like you did in the original post regarding Albert the Bear.
Please don't talk about the sources, your posts in "original inhabitants of ancient England" thread obviousely show that you never believe what historical sources say.
Never believe?  That's just not true.  I read what the sources say and then evaluate the information, some claims I take seriously some claims I take with a grain of salt (understanding what the source intends to do with the claim).  A perfect example of this would be in the Thomas Becket Materials in van Caenegem's English Lawsuits from William I to Richard I there are cases where after a criminal's castration he goes to St. Thomas Becket who makes the criminal's testicles reappear.  Are we to believe that this really happened?  I'm no biologist or anything like that but I'm pretty sure that once your testicles are cut off or lost they don't grow back.  If you insist on talking about my lack of belief in your sources, you should probably go back and read my reasons for that lack of belief; specifically the posts in which I offer source criticism and scholarly work explaining the similarities between Bede and Gildas.  Bede, as I have said previously, immitated Gildas' historiographical paradigm - that history takes place on an island stage.  Bede is reliable for events that happened in his life time and in the time of living memory before him, however he is not reliable for things that occurred outside of that time (ie: for things that happened in the 1st Century AD or anything prior to the 4th Century AD).  THis is not that hard to understand, so don't make blanket statements like, "You (I) don't believe what historical sources say."  I would also suggest that you reread my posts evaluating your readings of secondary sources, from which you just cherry-pick information.  In short I believe historical sources when they are believable, when they make claims that are clearly unbelievable I evaluate them; this is something that you should think of doing.  

Why do you avoid what I said in my posts?  Asking for sources for a claim in not that big of a deal.  I think you responded this way because you don't have any sources that state what you would argue. 


Edited by King John - 11-Mar-2009 at 18:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:52
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:


It is certainly not strange that the Alani-tribe of the Scythians (Alamanni) who conquered part of Armenia in the 7th century BC, were called "Armani" by the Persians ("l->r", there were no l sound in the Old Persian language), about the name of Armenia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia_(name) but they themselves called their land "Saksen", as Strabo in the first century BC mentioned:


now cut the crap, seriously! the ethymological origin of the Alemanni is well known. by now your posts look like the miseducated posts of a rambling lunatic, if you want every single person of this forum pissed off and losing respect of your person you're on a good way and you officially achieved it with me with this post!
I didn't expect such a post by you Temujin, please be gentle and respect others' thoughts, there are some ultra-nationalist German members in AE but I never thought you could be among them, You certainly know Alans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans an Iranian people who united with some Germanic tribes and conquered northern part of modern France.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 20:06
what do you mean by some? there's just me, beorna and ulrich. and i'm not nationalist, i don't post threads about my people 24/7, i didn't even cared about that silly thread wheather Germanic is a subgroup of iranic languages but now it's getting annoying, you know better than this or has your obsession with your own culture become so obsessive by now that it can be described as 'sick'? Saxons and Alemanni have zero to do with each other and that's not an opinion but fact. Alemanni actually means something in our language and there's no connection with Alani. your posts are so diffuse and have so many inaccuracies i don't even know where to begin... would you like it that people treat around your heritage as it pleases them like a bulldozer? i like Steppe people and i couldn't care less if there's a bigger iranian background behind Germanic peopel whatsoever but back it up with scientific arguments instead making everyone including yourself look like a fool by playing around with words and superficial knowledge like a kindergarten child, so please...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 21:32
Alani are an Iranian people, yes. Their name is a phonetical transformation of the term Arya-, used of themselves by Indians and Iranians.

That there is no connection between Alani and Alemanni is obvious to anybody with philological education and who, consequently, bothers to actually look at words, at vowels and consonants.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 09:00
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

what do you mean by some? there's just me, beorna and ulrich. and i'm not nationalist, i don't post threads about my people 24/7, i didn't even cared about that silly thread wheather Germanic is a subgroup of iranic languages but now it's getting annoying, you know better than this or has your obsession with your own culture become so obsessive by now that it can be described as 'sick'? Saxons and Alemanni have zero to do with each other and that's not an opinion but fact. Alemanni actually means something in our language and there's no connection with Alani. your posts are so diffuse and have so many inaccuracies i don't even know where to begin... would you like it that people treat around your heritage as it pleases them like a bulldozer? i like Steppe people and i couldn't care less if there's a bigger iranian background behind Germanic peopel whatsoever but back it up with scientific arguments instead making everyone including yourself look like a fool by playing around with words and superficial knowledge like a kindergarten child, so please...
As I said in "original inhabitants of ancient England" thread:  I am more in search of the origin of Iranian culture than the Germanic culture, similar to the major people of Turkey who were neither ethnically nor culturally Turk, most of the people who already call themselves Iranian, were not originally Iranian too but their original culture was formed somewhere too far from their current land, so we see their red-haired national hero Rustam the Saksi (Scythian) in Shahnameh doesn't look like a modern Iranian: (Rusta in the proto-Germanic language means "red/rust")
 
Rustam, the Iranian national hero
 
but he resembles Germanic and Scandinavian warrriors:
 
 
You can read in almost all encyclopedias that all stories around him are similar to Germanic stories, we see some Germanic stories are even older than the stories of Shahnameh, for example if you ask an Iranian to tell a story of Shahnameh, in all probability he/she will say the very famous tale of Rustam and Sohrab, the tragic encounter in battle between a son and his unrecognized father, you can find the same Germanic story in a manuscript which is some hundreds years older than Shahnameh:
 
 
The Lay of Hildebrand (Das Hildebrandslied) is a heroic lay, written in Old High German alliterative verse. It is one of the earliest literary works in German, and it tells of the tragic encounter in battle between a son and his unrecognized father. It is the only surviving example in German of a genre which must have been important in the oral literature of the Germanic tribes. This article is about the type of character. ... The Old English epic poem Beowulf is written in alliterative verse. ...
 
As you read from the link, these two stories are almost the same even in details but it says:
The similarities with the Hildebrandslied suggest the story may derive from an Proto-Indo-European folk tale. It means Irano-Germanic because you can't find the same story in other Indo-European cultures.
 
Who is the next Iranian national hero after Rustam? with no doubt Spandiyard (Esfandiyar), about this one we see even his name is also similar to German Sigurd (Siegfried), the story of Gudrun and Siegfried is also very similar to the story of Gordafrid in Shahnameh, of course I believe the story of Sigurd's invulnerability sounds more logical than Esfandiyar's, Sigurd became invulnerable after he had slaughtered the dragon but Esfandiyar became invulnerable to kill the dragon.
 
Esfandiyar & the Dragon: http://64.91.240.146/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=376 (from Shahnameh)
 

 
Siegfried & the Dragon:
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 12-Mar-2009 at 09:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 09:32
The etymology of the name Rostam is from Raodh+Takhma, where Raodh means growth, reaped, developed and Takhma means brave. In the Avesta, the form is *Raosta-takhma and in Pahlavi *Rodastahm.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 09:53
Cyrus, no Scandinavian warrior looked like your picture. I would expect a school child to make the mistake of using a cartoon or Hollywood picture, but not someone who claims to be a PhD!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 17:37
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

As I said in "original inhabitants of ancient England" thread:  I am more in search of the origin of Iranian culture than the Germanic culture, similar to the major people of Turkey who were neither ethnically nor culturally Turk, most of the people who already call themselves Iranian, were not originally Iranian too but their original culture was formed somewhere too far from their current land, so we see their red-haired national hero Rustam the Saksi (Scythian) in Shahnameh doesn't look like a modern Iranian: (Rusta in the proto-Germanic language means "red/rust")


first of all, red hair is no evidence for anything. your methodology makes Nazi claims about Aryan origins look like highest science.

secondly, according to your theory, Turks do not exist. why? people always claim, Turks of Anatolia are not Turks but Turkified. ok, for a moment let's accept this. then, who Turkified them? Turks from Mawrannahr. so! people say Transoxanian Turks are not Turks but in fact Turkified Iranians. Ok also let's accept this as well, so where did they come from? they came from the east but further east are just Mongols who aren't Turk and in the North are just more Siberian and Finno-Ugric people. so it's funny that those powerfull original Turks who are nowhere to be found Turkified Transoxanian Iranians and those Turkified Transoxianians further Turkified the Anatolians... PigShocked
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 18:17
Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

The etymology of the name Rostam is from Raodh+Takhma, where Raodh means growth, reaped, developed and Takhma means brave. In the Avesta, the form is *Raosta-takhma and in Pahlavi *Rodastahm.
There is absolutely no mention of Rostam in Avesta, that is just a modern false etymology, both "Raodh" and "Takhma" are adjective words!


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 12-Mar-2009 at 18:19
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