History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedAre Ideology and Morality like AIG and Citibank?

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
coberst View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coberst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are Ideology and Morality like AIG and Citibank?
    Posted: 07-Apr-2009 at 20:52

Are Ideology and Morality like AIG and Citibank?

 

 

Are AIG and Citibank too big and complex to fail?

 

Can our high tech capitalism, where extraordinary power rests in ordinary hands, survive such a situation?

 

How can capitalism adjust?

 

 

Are ideology and morality too big and complex to be encompassed by science? 

 

Can our high tech species, where extraordinary power rests in ordinary hands, survive such a situation?

 

How can the human species adjust?

 

 

I am really only interested in this later sequence of questions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Status: Offline
Points: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2009 at 23:47
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Are ideology and morality too big and complex to be encompassed by science?

What do fish think about Tolstoy?
Quote Can our high tech species, where extraordinary power rests in ordinary hands, survive such a situation?

High tech species?
By definition, extraordinary power can't lie in ordinary hands.
Quote How can the human species adjust?

No. But I don't understand what we are supposed to adjust for.
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2009 at 12:03
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Are ideology and morality too big and complex to be encompassed by science?

What do fish think about Tolstoy?
Big smile
 
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
coberst View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coberst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2009 at 13:36

 

Darwin informs us that the species that fails to adapt to its changing environment will soon become toast.  If we lack the intellectual sophistication required to make a science of these two concepts, ideology and morality, then we lack the sophistication required to adapt to our changing environment and thus will shortly become toast.

 

Any domain of knowledge can be studied in a systematic, disciplined, and empirical manner.  Our educational system prepares us only to act as producers and consumers and not as sophisticated citizens capable of meeting our changing needs to adapt.

Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 1211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2009 at 15:34
Originally posted by coberst coberst wrote:

Are ideology and morality too big and complex to be encompassed by science? 

I'm not sure what you mean. I can describe ideology and morality as emergent properties of a complex system. Which means that they are "encompassed" by science.
Quote

 Can our high tech species, where extraordinary power rests in ordinary hands, survive such a situation? [/quote]

Survivability is a property that also results from complexity. On what level the fact that "extraordinary power" rests in "ordinary hands" (whatever you mean by that) influences survivability is important and for now, I don't see this as relevant .
Quote

How can the human species adjust?

 Adjustment results too as an emergent property of complex systems. The problem lies in the result of "adjustement". Sometimes it least to catastrophic events.

Quote

Darwin informs us that the species that fails to adapt to its changing environment will soon become toast.  If we lack the intellectual sophistication required to make a science of these two concepts, ideology and morality, then we lack the sophistication required to adapt to our changing environment and thus will shortly become toast.

First, the "environment" is a direct result of our sophistication. That eventually it also becomes a cause that has an effect upon us it nothing but complex interaction. Complex systems are always ont the edge of chaos and why should we be an exception? [quote]

Any domain of knowledge can be studied in a systematic, disciplined, and empirical manner.  Our educational system prepares us only to act as producers and consumers and not as sophisticated citizens capable of meeting our changing needs to adapt.
Our educational system has changed and is changing. That sometimes "catastrophic events" occur is not sensational. It's not like we just became aware that ideology and morality are important and suddenly scientist must devout all efforts to study these two or else... As a matter of fact there are attempts to improve our status. So I don't see why should ideology and/or morality be the primordial tasks of scientists.
Since you mentioned sophistication, maybe a genetic improvement of our brain will do the trick. Therefore let's just pump up genetics and we might get through Wink
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2009 at 20:52

I don't see how questions of morality and ideology (throw in religion since it belongs in the same category) are any different now, except in detail, than they have ever been. Certainly they have no greater role to play now than in the past.

Morality, ideology and religion can be and are all studied scientifically by anthropologists. Just as they are all studied by historians using historical techniques.

What you cannot do scientifically is assess whether a given morality, ideology or religion is in some metaphysical sense 'true' or 'false'.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
coberst View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coberst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2009 at 22:20
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I don't see how questions of morality and ideology (throw in religion since it belongs in the same category) are any different now, except in detail, than they have ever been. Certainly they have no greater role to play now than in the past.

 
 
History informs us that war is our constant companion.  This indicates that we have little moral sophistication, i.e. little sophistication regarding relationships.  Before technology placed such extraordinary power in the hands of ordinary people this was not such a big problem.  Now however it is a means for the destruction of the species and possibly all life on this planet
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Status: Offline
Points: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2009 at 01:04
Quote Darwin informs us that the species that fails to adapt to its changing environment will soon become toast.

Last I checked, Darwin was a biologist, and while he is one that put forward some great theories, those theories aren't gospel.
Quote If we lack the intellectual sophistication required to make a science of these two concepts, ideology and morality, then we lack the sophistication required to adapt to our changing environment and thus will shortly become toast.

Quote History informs us that war is our constant companion.  This indicates that we have little moral sophistication, i.e. little sophistication regarding relationships.  Before technology placed such extraordinary power in the hands of ordinary people this was not such a big problem.  Now however it is a means for the destruction of the species and possibly all life on this planet

I hope you understand that science is a set of tools or methodology for studying something. We have sciences to study ideology & morality. I think perhaps you wish to have a way to Engineer morality. This too may be possible after a much greater understanding of it may be reached, but I think you'll find that most people will think that Engineering Morality is immoral.
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 1211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2009 at 07:13
I think coberst is enjoying hearing our braingears screaching when attempting to comment his posts. He, on the other side, only throws statements that are vague and to me they look like a poor job of avoiding copy/paste.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.