History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedAre France and Poland antisemitic?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
DayI View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 30-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2406
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 11:59
maharbbal you are jewish now? didnt you say youre a greek coming from constantinople in the 18th century?

sorry if i made a mistake.
Back to Top
Joinville View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 353
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 03:15
Originally posted by Dharmagape Dharmagape wrote:


Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:


It is another crap statement. Even Communists weren't 'systematically anti-jewish'. In the period 1945-1956 a lot of Jews were more than welcomed workers of the State administration. For example they were largely employed by the Ministry of Public Security, whose main goal was a political repression and physical elimination of Communist opponents.
Actually, much more Poles died froim Jewish hands, than Jews from Polish hands.

Would you mind expanding on that?
Is there really any facts to back up such a statement?
And is this a common Polish sentiment, that the Jews have been killing Poles in large numbers?
One must not insult the future.
Back to Top
Dharmagape View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 01-Jan-2006
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dharmagape Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 09:04
Originally posted by Joinville Joinville wrote:

Originally posted by Dharmagape Dharmagape wrote:


Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:


It is another crap statement. Even Communists weren't 'systematically anti-jewish'. In the period 1945-1956 a lot of Jews were more than welcomed workers of the State administration. For example they were largely employed by the Ministry of Public Security, whose main goal was a political repression and physical elimination of Communist opponents.
Actually, much more Poles died froim Jewish hands, than Jews from Polish hands.

Would you mind expanding on that?
Is there really any facts to back up such a statement?
And is this a common Polish sentiment, that the Jews have been killing Poles in large numbers?

1. What I meant by that is that the management of the stalinist Ministry of Public Security (known also as the Office of Security) consisted of Jews, almost totally. The only one ethnic Pole in the management was Radkiewicz. Mietkowski, Fejgin, Romkowski, Światło, Rżański, Jakub Berman and others were ethnic Jews. Some of them were not even Polish Jews but Jews "imported" from the Soviet Union. Very similar situation had taken place in other Eastern European countries, which have been dominated after WWII by the Soviet Union. Generally, the overrepresentation of people of Jewish origin in communist regimes is significant, especially in:
a) security services, secret policies and apparatuses of repression;
b) higher posts and positions of communist regimes and parties.
2. 60 to 80 % of higher NKVD officers were of Jewish origin. Source: Jaroslav Hrycak's "Historia Ukrainy. 1772-1999" ("The History of Ukraine. 1772-1999").
I think that you know that the Ministry of Public Security and NKVD killed hundreds thousands of Poles during
a) the Great Terror
b) the Soviet occupation 1939-41
c) the stalinist regime implied on Poland in 1944-56
For instance, historians know currently that during two years of the Great Terror in Soviet Union approximately 144.000 Poles have been arrested by NKVD. The predominant majority of them were later shot. Source: "Polakw setkami brać!", "Gazeta Wyborcza", 11-12 VIII 2007.
That is why I wrote: [/QUOTE]Actually, much more Poles died from Jewish hands, than Jews from Polish hands.[/QUOTE]
3. You called it "sentiment". I think that generally many inhabitants of former communist countries in Eastern Europe (Baltic states, Russia, Belorus, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, former Yugoslavia, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia) realize that people of Jewish origin had a significant role in communist apparatuses of repressions (NKVD and its clones) and in communist movements and governments in Europe. This "sentiment", as you called it, is not circumscribed to Poland.
"Magnos homines virtute metimur, non fortuna." - "We measure great men by their virtue, not their fortune." - Cornelius Nepos
Back to Top
Joinville View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 353
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 14:18
Originally posted by Dharmagape Dharmagape wrote:


Originally posted by Joinville Joinville wrote:

Originally posted by Dharmagape Dharmagape wrote:


Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:


It is another crap statement. Even Communists weren't 'systematically anti-jewish'. In the period 1945-1956 a lot of Jews were more than welcomed workers of the State administration. For example they were largely employed by the Ministry of Public Security, whose main goal was a political repression and physical elimination of Communist opponents.
Actually, much more Poles died froim Jewish hands, than Jews from Polish hands.

Would you mind expanding on that?
Is there really any facts to back up such a statement?
And is this a common Polish sentiment, that the Jews have been killing Poles in large numbers?
1. What I meant by that is that the management of the stalinist Ministry of Public Security (known also as the Office of Security) consisted of Jews, almost totally. The only one ethnic Pole in the management was Radkiewicz. Mietkowski, Fejgin, Romkowski, ?wiat?o, R?a?ski, Jakub Berman and others were ethnic Jews. Some of them were not even Polish Jews but Jews "imported" from the Soviet Union. Very similar situation had taken place in other Eastern European countries, which have been dominated after WWII by the Soviet Union. Generally, the overrepresentation of people of Jewish origin in communist regimes is significant, especially in:a) security services, secret policies and apparatuses of repression;b) higher posts and positions of communist regimes and parties.2. 60 to 80 % of higher NKVD officers were of Jewish origin. Source: Jaroslav Hrycak's "Historia Ukrainy. 1772-1999" ("The History of Ukraine. 1772-1999").I think that you know that the Ministry of Public Security and NKVD killed hundreds thousands of Poles duringa) the Great Terrorb) the Soviet occupation 1939-41c) the stalinist regime implied on Poland in 1944-56For instance, historians know currently that during two years of the Great Terror in Soviet Union approximately 144.000 Poles have been arrested by NKVD. The predominant majority of them were later shot. Source: "Polakw setkami bra?!", "Gazeta Wyborcza", 11-12 VIII 2007.That is why I wrote:
Actually, much more Poles died from Jewish hands, than Jews from Polish hands.[/QUOTE]
3. You called it "sentiment". I think that generally many inhabitants of former communist countries in Eastern Europe (Baltic states, Russia, Belorus, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, former Yugoslavia, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia) realize that people of Jewish origin had a significant role in communist apparatuses of repressions (NKVD and its clones) and in communist movements and governments in Europe. This "sentiment", as you called it, is not circumscribed to Poland.[/QUOTE]
Oh yes, the Soviet system was fantastically and murderously repressive. That's quite well known, and not contested in anyway.

But somehow the statement "The NKVD/Bolsheviks killed a lot of people" is somehow deficient if it doesn't also specify that the killers were Jews?

When being a Bolshevik hitman or administrator of mass murder, what somehow matters is that you're of Jewish descent? The ideology "Bolshevik" never overtakes the aspect of "Jew"? I would think it does, rendering whether these people were Jewish or not inconseqiential. Would you agree?

I don't think you meant anything very profound with your original observation. I still find it troubling. The kind of think people say because it's part of stuff one doesn't really think too much about.
One must not insult the future.
Back to Top
Husaria View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 150
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2008 at 06:32
So i guess Poland having harboured jews for centurys is actualy antisemetic i never wouldve seen that one coming LOL.
"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.
Back to Top
Turenne View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 11-Sep-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turenne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2008 at 13:59
While I know that antisemitism exists is France, it would be an lie to call France itself antisemitic.  During WW2, it is true that the racial tension toward the jewish community was more present in the Hexagone, but it was a very widespread phenomenon in Europe and America at the time.
 
As for Modern France, it is far from antisemitic.  While there are some racist politicians (Jean-Marie LePen comes to mind here), it remains one of the country with the most important Jewish community in Europe and the secular approach of the government assures that religion is rarely an issue.


"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I attack."

Ferdinand Foch
Back to Top
winningstad View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Status: Offline
Points: 3
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote winningstad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 15:11
I´m not up to speed on recent French antisemitism. But there´s no point denying the rabid antisemitism in Poland during the inter-war years. Quite frankly, it´s possible to argue that antisemitism was even more widespread among Poles than Germans. When it comes to institutionalized antisemitism there´s certainly no comparison, but that should be more attributed to the political organization of Germany.







Edited by winningstad - 17-Dec-2008 at 15:14
Back to Top
Husaria View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 150
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 04:29
I would agree that there is a good amount of antisemitism in Poland but people are making this a one way street. Jews and Poles have had tension throughout all of history, There is plenty of anti-polonism rampant on the Jewish side so most of the hate is continued/brought on purly because the other guy doesn't like you.
"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 407
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 11:57
 
Anti-Semitic was  rampant in late 19th century France.Newspapers and public officials openly cursed Jews.
 
Read the case of Dreyfus Affair.
 
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.