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Forum LockedAre Christians more tolerant than Muslims

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are Christians more tolerant than Muslims
    Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 23:19
Since i live in Germany i compare europeans with Middle eastern societies. There are many ethic values in both societies which differs in many points. If we look at the history of about 20 years until now, we see a certain intolerance among the Islamic world. Many of you have read or heared of Dun Brown's book "The Da Vinci Code" and the sacrilege, he claims Maria Magdalena to be the holy grail or Jesus have had a doughter. But have anyone of you ever heared a Christ sentenses Dun Brown to death? or have you ever heared some Christ try to cut the throat of the publishers of this book?
 
We all know what happened in the Danish cartoon affair. I don't want here to disscusse if the cartoons were an insult for Islam or not, but also i want to disscusse why Christians showed setteled characters as they protested against Dun Browns book.
 
Now if you  understand my point, what is the difference between christian and islamic world? (of today offcourse).
Your opinions and thoughts.
 


Edited by Maziar - 04-Jun-2006 at 23:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote machine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 00:35
Best get rid of what i wrote because my opinions strike a nerve with the armchair communists. 
 
 
 
 


Edited by machine - 05-Jun-2006 at 12:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 01:38
Actually, I do want to know if there have been any Christian groups which have committed murder or attacks as a result of how their religion has been portrayed recently. Perhaps it is out there, though I have not heard of it recently to be honest.

One Christian group I know of which is fanatical is Westboro Baptist Church. This is a small splinter church which is looked down on by conventional churches and is radically different to your typical Christian church. They basically run hate campaigns of verbal abuse against homosexuals, Jews, Catholics and a range of other groups. Their methods are particularly distasteful, including picketing the funerals of the deceased and screaming abuse at family members. Their membership is less than 200 and nearly half of those are comprised of family members from the church's founder, Fred Phelps Senior.

For more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_baptist


Edited by Constantine XI - 05-Jun-2006 at 03:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 03:08
I don't think its a matter of religion. It's politics. I haven't heard of extreme actions of muslims in europe or america. Dictarors and non-democratic goverments throughout history always tried to focus their peoples interest in something else than their poverty, lack of education etc.
And as for Cristian groups commiting murders, i believe the Spanish Inquisition beats' em all!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 04:34
Constantine, they're groups in the USA that shoot doctors attached to abortion clinics. Futher to this thread, what would one define as a christain group? just pure religoius organisations, or paramilitary/groups that have christain members? Im thinking balkans and africa.

@ machine, christainity fundamentally has not changed, ithough ts members within it and the soceity around it have.

@Giannis, Franco and his henchmen in Spain fit that bill too....


Edited by Leonidas - 05-Jun-2006 at 04:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 04:42
A fanatic is a fanatic no matter of religion. But the number of muslim fanatics is many times bigger than of christian fanatics. Proof: suicidal bombers, violent reaction. Is not a religious problem but an educational one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 04:45
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Actually, I do want to know if there have been any Christian groups which have committed murder or attacks as a result of how their religion has been portrayed recently. Perhaps it is out there, though I have not heard of it recently to be honest.

One Christian group I know of which is fanatical is Westboro Baptist Church. This is a small splinter church which is looked down on by conventional churches and is radically different to your typical Christian church. They basically run hate campaigns of verbal abuse against homosexuals, Jews, Catholics and a range of other groups. Their methods are particularly distasteful, including picketing the funerals of the deceased and screaming abuse at family members. Their membership is less than 200 and nearly half of those are comprised of family members from the church's founder, Fred Phelps Senior.

For more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_baptist


Yes, however the Westboro church group aren't violent. But they are, nonetheless whackos. They use the law as their weapon. Fred Phelps is actually a pretty intelligent lawyer.

Quote Actually, I do want to know if there have been any Christian groups which have committed murder or attacks as a result of how their religion has been portrayed recently. Perhaps it is out there, though I have not heard of it recently to be honest.


However, there are some groups that don't make the news. There are splinter groups of Mormons in Utah and the northern parts of Arizona. They live in compounds with their extended families (like the Branch Davidians). The men have numerous wives, and some have over 30 children. They are extremely cut off from society. It is widely known that there is mass child abuse/spousal abuse that occurs within these isolated compounds.

the leader of one of these groups, who is a known polygamist is currently on the FBI's ten-msot wanted list for abuse of everykind (including child sexual abuse). The leaders of these groups have killed family members in the past who rebel and try to leave.

In my mind, they are terrorists but they are extremely isolationist, whereas Islamic terrorist groups are more international these days, thus these mormon groups never make the news.

Every once in a while, a woman will come out of one of these compounds and get on the local news here. Their stories are shocking. One of these "escapees" was on FoxNews's "O'Reilly Factor" the other day. The governments of Arizona and Utah are ignoring the problem.


Edited by Illuminati - 05-Jun-2006 at 04:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 04:49
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

Constantine, they're groups in the USA that shoot doctors attached to abortion clinics. Futher to this thread, what would one define as a christain group? just pure religoius organisations, or paramilitary/groups that have christain members? Im thinking balkans and africa.


Good pointer there. It makes me wonder about an abortion clinic shooter who killed a security guard in Melbourne last year. One could identify him as having sympathies with the Christian pro-life segment of society, yet the media ascribed his actions to madness. In that situation you could argue that he was doing what he did at the behest of Christian ideology, why attack an abortion clinic in the first place?

I suppose for the sake of this thread it may be necessary to distinguish violence which is motivated by religion and violence which uses religion as a convenient way of legitimising itself. Sometimes it is almost impossible to distinguish between the two.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 04:54
" I suppose for the sake of this thread it may be necessary to distinguish violence which is motivated by religion and violence which uses religion as a convenient way of legitimising itself. Sometimes it is almost impossible to distinguish between the two."

Violence which uses religion:
reaction to danish cartoon;
groups in the USA that shoot doctors attached to abortion clinics.

Violence which is motivated by religion:
suicidal bombers.

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...the rest are details."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 07:19
im glad we can try and split the two, im sure the more eloquent members will do it better than me. But i fear Constantine it would be like the chicken and egg type quandry, that is, too distinguish between the two. I see all these religous groups as just that - groups, with religion as a background (one factor).


 I must say religion gets double abused by those who use it to kill others and also those who seek to demonise it from those very such people/actions. Religion alone does not motivate suicide bombers, its a range of factors and interpretations, earthly factors rather than 'spiritual' ones. In my mind islam (like all religions) gets twisted more to fit the earthly beliefs (political) than the other way around, despite what the bomber belives.



Edited by Leonidas - 05-Jun-2006 at 07:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roadkill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 07:52
 -When it comes to suicide bombers many of them are either unbelieving or moderate muslims. Many come from abroad(At least three arabs have emigrated from Norway and become suicide bombers) and are never very devout but they wish to do something for their fellow countrymen. The muslim fanatics then choose them as they're not killing devout muslims(Who can be more useful alive).

 -The difference between Muslim and Christian fanatics is that the former see the West in it's entirity as unholy and can be very general in their attacks(9/11, Madrid, London) while the latter have more specific targets(Abortion doctors/clinics, for instance).

 -A fanatic is a fanatic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 08:02
Originally posted by machine machine wrote:

Its quite simple really. Muslims are fanatics and Christains arent (these days).
 
And because Muslims in Europe arent even from Europe they have 2 things going against them, race and religion. Not being accepted can also stir up hatred.
 
ANd the difference is Islam is backwards and hasnt made changes while Christianity has, i think anyway.
 
 
 
I have apologised before on behalf of AE's administration for some of the posts our members are forced to read, and here is another one coming.
The banality of the sweeping generalisation contained in the post above is quite breathtaking and doesn't need any further comments.
 
As for the rest of the discussion, I can only agree with Constantine XI, that it is vital to analyse the political backgrounds of what on the surface appears to be  religiously motivated violence.
At closer scrutiny, none of the violence in the Middle-East, be it committed by suicide-bombers or Israeli gun-ships can be explained as being motivated by religion.
Religion appears to be the current ideology of the Palestinian fight against Israeli occupation or that of the struggle against the  American/British occupation of the Iraq, but nothing more.  30 years ago, the same fight was motivated by a Marxist influenced liberation ideology, and why that has changed would be interesting to analyse.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wulfher ap Clun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 09:23
entirely a matter of subjective opinion...as a case might be made for and or against as both have splinter fundamentalist groups and both have neo- fundamentalist groups and both have more moderate adherants...
 
....it has been my impression... having visited several Islamic nations ...that the closer  you get to big money... the more tolerant... they are.... the Saudi's aside in general....but this in turn can be lain along side Christainity as well....
 
hence it didnt suprise me at all....merely confirmed an earlier hypothesis...that the majority or preponderance of the faithful ...are poor.....obviously there numerous exceptions but the numbers favor the realitive poor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 09:26
There is no marxist ideologically suicider. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wulfher ap Clun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 09:41
Amen to that trooper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 09:55
Christians have their own violent fanatics. However, there are few if any, Christian suicide bombers. Christians seem to be more efficient in their fanatic killing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 10:44

Originally posted by Maziar Maziar wrote:


We all know what happened in the Danish cartoon affair. I don't want here to disscusse if the cartoons were an insult for Islam or not, but also i want to disscusse why Christians showed setteled characters as they protested against Dun Browns book.
 
Now if you  understand my point, what is the difference between christian and islamic world? (of today offcourse).
Your opinions and thoughts.

Well Maziar - it isnt the same Christians who printed the Cartoons as those protesting against Dan Browns book.

Printing the cartoons was a protest in itself, against self-censorship.
The background for printing them was not an unprovoked act to demonstrate "Freedom of Speech" - there was a good reason.
The reason was, that a publisher wanted to make a book about Islam and muslims to provide a better understanding of our muslim minorities here in Denmark. The publisher couldnt find anyone who "dared" to illustrate such a book. (we all know numerous examples of what can happen) 
The newspaper saw this as an attack on freedom of speech, and as a protest to this, decided to print the cartoons in the, for newspapers,  usual satirical manner.

I havent heard about any Danes protesting against Da Vinci Code, except  the Faroe Islands (selfgovering under Danish law) who didnt want the movie. They tend to be more religious than the average Danish citizen - who couldnt care less about this.

The difference between Muslim and Christian world?
I think the clerics makes all the difference. Neither of the religions are violent but people makes them violent.
Some clerics of Islam are very agressive, non-tolerant and will fight any influence and acceptance of anything "western". They are using any excuse to inflame hatred in an attempt to maintain their power over the people.

Ie. the riots against the Danish and other embassys, I doubt they were spontainious. They were organised by the clerics who was (mis)informed by the delegation of Danish Imams who made their tour solely to stir up trouble and intimidate. Once again it was demonstrated how these clerics can take advantage of less educated people and exploit them to benefit their own agenda.

I cant help to think - these people in the street - do they actually know the deeper context for what and why they riot?
Are such riots actually just an excuse and "safe way" to let out anger and steam from other more local frustrations?

Another issue on immigration... 
Some muslims tend to think that they dont have to obey other laws than the Quran and some traditions from their home country. This is bound to give problems.  
We live in a very tolerant society - bordering to lazyness in many ways, and thats maybe our biggest fault - failing to address the problems efficiently before they escalate.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 12:07
There is no marxist ideologically suicider. 
 
PKK is marxist, and they used some suicider.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 12:41
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_group 
 
heres a link of all religious terrorist groups
 
Btw what about those tashnak terrorist , asala (marxist) are armenian christians right?


Edited by xi_tujue - 05-Jun-2006 at 13:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 12:49
Many of the "freedom fighter" of the Christian people in the Ottoman Empire  in order to achieve their political purposes used methods that today would most accurately by described as terrorism, but we hardly see the west referring to them as Christian terrorists - instead their actions were portrayed as heroic rebellions against the henious muslim rulers.
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