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Forum LockedArabain Gulf old Maps?!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Arabain Gulf old Maps?!
    Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 06:50
ok to all members no need to get into flam wars on the terms, if you want to do so go to wikipedia persian gulf name dispute not here.
 
here i want to discuss some maps i saw in this site http://www.arabiangulfmaps.com/ 
 
i myself didnt know that there were old maps specially european used the term Arabian Gulf, although i read in an online newspaper once that the term was used long time ago in reference to the body of water between Iran and Arabian penensula.
 
the maps shown in that site were drawn by several historical figures such as Mercator (1512-1594), Hindios and john speed (1552-1629).
 
 below is some of the maps collections from the same site
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 08:06
Well, the fact of the matter is that there are two UN directives on the name of the Gulf being Persian, one from 1974 and one in 1981/2. I do not know the motive for the UAE in demanding its name be changed and bribing previously reputable organisations like the National Geographic and various British institutions in renaming the Gulf. Also a new laughable development has been UAE companies ceasing trade with Iran due to the use of the correct name which in turn led to bans of UAE products to Iran imprinted with the false name.

Even Saudi maps from 40+ years ago use the term Khalij al Farsi - Persian Gulf.

This Arabian Gulf nonsense is a new phenomenon and a fabrication, like those maps - if such maps existed they would have been used many years ago since this dispute is about 30 years old - How about we see pictures of the original maps? Then they can also be carbon dated and checked for authenticity by the appropriate body - since petrodollars seem to buy a lot in the West these days, including academic integrity.

--

I think the name of the Gulf of Oman should be changed to the Gulf of Hormuz and the Arabian Sea should be changed to the historically accurate Sea of Iran.

Just kidding - but to Iranians and every serious academic this is how silly the attempts at renaming the Persian Gulf are.

Edited by Zagros - 01-Feb-2007 at 08:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 08:37
so about the topic, you think those maps are fake!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 08:50
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


Even Saudi maps from 40+ years ago use the term Khalij al Farsi - Persian Gulf.

This Arabian Gulf nonsense is a new phenomenon and a fabrication, like those maps - if such maps existed they would have been used many years ago since this dispute is about 30 years old - How about we see pictures of the original maps? Then they can also be carbon dated and checked for authenticity by the appropriate body - since petrodollars seem to buy a lot in the West these days, including academic integrity.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 09:47

ok do you have proofs that these maps are fake or just an assumption, as i said i too havnt seen those maps before but that doesnt make them fake just because you or me dont know about their existance, what if they are real and the term isnt "new"and that gulf called with different names through history?

also many iranians are very sensitive about the name that they start making false accusations and name calling without any proofs or evidences. such as the one arguing with me in wikipedia stating that there were no other civilizations on the coast of the gulf but the Persian civilization and he says this is not nationalisim, how sad.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 10:49
I don't have anything to do with wikipedia. You cannot present maps that look like they have been coloured in with crayonnes at elementary school and demand that I prove them to be fake. You must prove that they are genuine, the burden of proof lies firmly on you the advocate's shoulders.

Simple really. If they are real and a new discovery, then they have been discovered from something. I wish to see that something, in this case pictures of the original maps, which presumably exist and it would be interesting to see what is written. Otherwise, they are no more than a modern invention commissioned by the Sheikhs, since there is no historical source to them.

A really funny thing happened here a while ago, there was history programme whose producers were obviously in the pocket of the Sheikhs; they showed a map of the Persian Gulf and the narrator, Adam Hart-Davis referred to it as the Arabian Gulf, contradicting his own map which had it labelled as the Persian Gulf! I had a field day with them by email.

I know why the UAE is so keen to change the name, because it improves their position in their claim on the Iranian islands of Abu Mussa and the Greater and Lesser Tonbs which Saddam promised to the UAE upon his victory which never came in his self proclaimed, "second Ghadassiye" in return for money, which the UAE obliged.



"Ghahreman e Ghadassiye!!! her her"
"Champion of Ghadassiye!!! ha ha"

At least some soldiers had a sense of humour in the imposed war.

Edited by Zagros - 01-Feb-2007 at 10:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 11:20
Originally posted by azimuth azimuth wrote:

ok do you have proofs that these maps are fake or just an assumption, as i said i too havnt seen those maps before but that doesnt make them fake just because you or me dont know about their existance, what if they are real and the term isnt "new"and that gulf called with different names through history?

also many iranians are very sensitive about the name that they start making false accusations and name calling without any proofs or evidences. such as the one arguing with me in wikipedia stating that there were no other civilizations on the coast of the gulf but the Persian civilization and he says this is not nationalisim, how sad.

 





Do you have proofs that these maps are NOT fake? I think you are too sensitive about the name, so why should you grub out an old theme like this? and don't tell me you are not a nationalist!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 11:53
no not sensitive at all i just found that site and it was new to me too, so wanted to discuss it, if you didnt read my first post i did mention i dont want to make this into flame war because of the term, and i wanted to discuss these maps and zargos stated that they are fake and continued with a conspiracy theory about uae changing facts .
 
anyway i still not in the mood to argue about terms , i want to talk about these maps in that site.
 
and did a little search and found that there is another site not arabic, http://www.betzmaps.com/index.html  and its about old maps..
 
and found this map  http://www.betzmaps.com/AS-155.html  this one of the maps in the site i put in the first post
 
 
still fake?Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 12:33
I have just done some research also and it appears that the naming was down to the cartographers' discretion and in these two cases they used the incorrect name, since maps dating before this era also used Sinus Persicus. Sinus Arabicus was the name usually given to the Red Sea, these appear as the only examples which terms the usual sinus Persicus as Sinus Arabicus.

So, maybe two historical maps use the term Arabian Gulf incorrectly, there are about another 20 others that use Persian Gulf half of which predate these maps. Most notably a caliphate era map from the 9th century calling it the Bahr Fars (Persian Sea in Arabic!).

I say incorrectly becuase Arabian Gulf was the name for the Red Sea.

So what was the point in raising this dead issue?




Edited by Zagros - 01-Feb-2007 at 12:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 12:57
This is just sad, copy of an 1851 map at Sheikh Saeed House desecrated by the UAE authorities who seem to have a problem with the word Persian.

Shame:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:00
Here's a map of scotland from 1641
 
 
Originally posted by azimuth azimuth wrote:

And found this map  http://www.betzmaps.com/AS-155.html  this one of the maps in the site i put in the first post
 
That map labels the area currently known as Kuwait as "PARS". LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:06
It is off topic.   If we (persians and arabs) want to have a peaceful coexistence, it's better don't try or start such a nonsence  issues. there are still so much hatred between our nations (that I don't support it). It is better solve them instead of opening new problem-maker issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:09
Yes, and that show how much accurate is their claims.Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:29
there are more than two maps zagros
 
and assuming that they put the term incorrectly isnt logical specially when they have both the red sea and persian/arabian gulf at the same map. like the one below from a different person.
 
 
 
 
add to that that the Gulf in the map had two names  "the Sea Elcatif" and "Arabian Gulf"
 
Elcatif is a city in saudi arabia.
 
and the red sea "the sea of mecca" and "Arabian gulf"
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:32

so from that

 
the term Arabian Gulf is not an invention of the 1960s, it did exist before that for the Persian gulf. 
 
some articles in wikipedia needs modification Big%20smile
 
-----
 
also we need to add more to the terms that gulf had through history
 
1- lower sea
2- the sea from where the sun rises
3-the bitter sea
4- the persian gulf
5-the arabian gulf
6- the sea elcatif
7- the basra gulf
 
7 names so far and the most famouse and widely used now offcourse is the persian gulf, arabian gulf started to be used again after 1960s by arab countries.
 
 


Edited by azimuth - 01-Feb-2007 at 15:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 16:23
Dude you got your answer that map is unaccurate. So what is this nonsence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 18:45
Azimuth, what is your point? You are trying to claim that the original name was the Arabian Gulf?  I am afraid it wasn't, the vast majority of historical maps and sources refer to the body of water as the Persian Gulf, not to mention TWO UN directives!
 

Regional map showing the word Bahr Fars, ("Persian sea") in Arabic, from the 9th century text Al-aqalim by the Persian geographer Istakhri.

An 1808 British map depicting the "Persian Gulf".

Map depiction of 1719 using the term "Persian Gulf".

1598 German map using the term "Persicus" for the body of water.

Map by Abraham Ortelius dated 1580 using the term "Persicus" (MAR MESENDIN ol. Sinus Persicus).

1610 Map by Dutch map maker Jodocus Hondius using term "Persicus".

Gerard Mercator's map of 1595 showing Persian Gulf terminology (Mare di Mesendin olim Persicus sinus).

French map dated 1740.

Jan Jansson's map, 17th century (MARE ELCATIF olim SINUS PERSICUS).

Giacomo Gastaldi's map circa 1548 is denoted by cartographic historian Gerald Tibbetts as the first "modern" map of the area.

Swiss map dated 1540, which was based on Ptolemy's Geographia.

Another 16th century map with the name "Sinus Persicus" barely visible in the lower right.

Map is by Sebastian Munster, 1588.

Map by Universal Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, and Literature by Abraham Rees, 1820. Note "Arabian Sea" is denoted below present day Oman.

Map of 1531 denoting Sinus Persicus.

French map dated 1540.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 04:46

Ok, according to this map, we call the Persian Gulf as Arabian Gulf but you should not call Egypt as "Jumhuriyah Misr al-'Arabiyah" but Pars.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 05:28
Cyrus, Pars, is the second word of the sentence "Africae Pars", wich mean African Portion LOL

Here i must go with our persian fellows azimuth, as show Zagros there is a lot of map very old wich show "Persian" and not "Arab" I'm searching the opinion of the romans (Ptolemy) but i can't read clearly the words of his map (there are several on the net)

Edit:

Well this map is a Renaissance representation of the world according with Ptolemy, say clearly Persicus Sinus, that is, Persian Gulf (contrary to the Red Sea, wich is called "Arabicus Sinus") If somebody have doubts, can read the work of Ptolemy "Geographica", where is all the information.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/PtolemyWorldMap.jpg




Edited by Ikki - 02-Feb-2007 at 05:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 06:49
lol, as I mentioned here, Persia (Persian Pars), Parthia (Persian Part), Scythia (Persian Saka) really mean Portion, Part and Section.
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