History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedAny chance to get some help with Phrygian?

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Status: Offline
Points: 1814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Any chance to get some help with Phrygian?
    Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 12:26
I know this is an overkill and i guess not many actually study Phrygian inscriptions, but if i don't ask this here then i can't ask anywhere else.

ΑΤΕΣ : ΑΡΚΙΑΕFΑΙΣ : ΑΚΕΝΑΝΟΓΑFΟΣ : ΜΙΔΑΙ : ΛΑFΑΓΤΑΕΙ : FΑΝΑΚΤΕΙ : ΕΔΑΕΣ

The sentence above is one of my favourites but also one that i can't fully translate. I'm stuck on Ates and Edaes and their role in the sentence. I have some of the following possible translations:

Archpriest Ates, descending from the noble family line of Midas, leads the people and rules this place.

Father archpriest, descending from the noble family line of Midas, leads the people and rules here.

The last part Edaes is not that important actually since, you get the point...It's probably the equivalent of Da or Deuro/Edo in Greek, which just leaves the problematic if it means "here" or "this place" or "this land". However, i dunno if Ates is a name or the honourable way to say father like in Greek Atta (later Πάτερ - don't confuse with πατήρ). Atta is the same in Hittite, Lydian and Latin, so my question is if Phrygian shares the same. On the other side, shouldn't this sentence tell us the name of this noble religious leader? ATES is written with one T which would lead us that it's a name if the Lydian version didn't have the same spelling.





Edited by Flipper - 10-Mar-2009 at 12:29


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
khshayathiya View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 20-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 13:40
The little experience I have with epigraphy makes me inclined to believe that a name is to be expected in that position.

If the person's name happens to means also "Father", that might as well happen, although that wouldn't be that common (would it?).

The formula "father archpriest" without the proper indicator of person would indicate perhaps a "sacred precinct", over which authority is exerted by the institution of the archpriestly dynasty (all "father archpriests" are expected to descend from Midas!). While that is not beyond the realm of possibility, I think the first possibility is more likely.


Edited by khshayathiya - 10-Mar-2009 at 13:44
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1899
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 14:36
I second Khshayathiya, I believe Ates to be a name.
 
I also believe the inscription rather to contain a dedication (to Midas), not a genealogy (of Midas), and I suggest the gramatical case is dative. Vanaktei seem to have a cognate in Greek or loaned from one language to another. A Greek word for ruler was anax (see Homer), from an earlier *wanax (the Linear B tablets have words like like wa-na-ka). For lavagetaei the Greeks had a parallel lawagetas (in Linear B ra-wa-ke-ta). The title was, if we follow Michel Lejeune, Midas Wanax Lawagetas.
 
 
Therefore the inscription should be something like "Ates blabla dedicated/put [this monument] to Midas blabla"
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 10-Mar-2009 at 14:40
Back to Top
khshayathiya View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 20-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 15:44
Woodard also considers MIDAI a dative. Now, what function this dative had remains to be discussed.

It would be useful to know the date of the inscription in order to assess the likelihood of casual syncretism having occurred. After all, Greek has the Genitive absorb the Ablative, while in Latin it seems the Dative was competing for the same position (with all plural endings, for example, being identical). Perhaps something similar is happening in Phrygian?
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1899
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 15:59

In several ancient languages dedications are usually in dative (e.g. Augusto in Latin or Theois in Greek; in my native language I can formulate something like "dedicated to X" using the dative so for me it's easy to understand). I suggested the dative also because it's customary for such inscriptions, but also because those endings in -i suggest it.

Back to Top
khshayathiya View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 20-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 16:10
Now that I look at the inscription again (and taking the time to look at the verbal morphology chapter in Woodard :P ) your suggestion does, indeed, make a lot of sense:

Ates {ΑΡΚΙΑΕFΑΙΣ : ΑΚΕΝΑΝΟΓΑFΟΣ} offered <this inscription> to Midas, the laFagetes and Fanax.

ΛΑFΑΓΤΑΕΙ : FΑΝΑΚΤΕΙ would be attributes of Midas. The apparent redundancy is not bothersome in epigraphical context, particularly of the religious type (see Latin DDD: do dono dedico).

ΕΔΑΕΣ would be a preterit verbal form (with augment). Woodard argues the final Σ is actually a mark of the 3rd person singular. Stranger things have happened...


EDIT: I'm too lazy for my job... I should have looked at the end of the chapter. Woodard gives this interpretation: “Ates . . . has dedicated [this monument] to Midas, lavagtas and vanax”

There I go again, discovering the wheel... Ouch


Edited by khshayathiya - 10-Mar-2009 at 16:13
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1899
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 16:30
I used this article as a starting point for my speculations:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7ucUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA153
Back to Top
khshayathiya View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 20-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 16:37
An interesting read. Thanks!
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Status: Offline
Points: 1814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 07:31
Thank you guys!
Usefull input! This seems to be a controversial inscription. I'm pretty sure ATES is the name. Now Lawaktaei Wanaktei are verbs not adjectives Lawagetas and Wanax as some assumed.  So Midas is the one who rules and leads the people or something like that.

Arkiewais is a title according to Neroznak and in combination with Akenanogawos ATES is a religious figure. According to Lubotsky "This becomes comprehensible if we assume that Ates had a religious function and not a secular one". That's why i guessed Arkiewais cognates with greek Archiereus (where -eus in this case is pronounced as -ephs).

It seems that ATES has dedicated a facade, but i haven't understood yet how they conclude this.

Btw, Chibuldios, this is a Palaeophrygian inscription, so usually it is not suspected that the words are loadwords from Greek like we can say about "Ouranion" and others that appear in neo-Phrygian inscriptions. 

As for Akenonagawos i had a theory that it could break up as greek cognates a-genan-agawos (genos + agawos) which would make it something like "the same noble family" but i seem to be alone on this.




Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
khshayathiya View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 20-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 12:17
In the beginning I agreed with your translation, but now I am inclined to agree with the others, who make ΛΑFΑΓΤΑΕΙ and FΑΝΑΚΤΕΙ appositions (that is nouns, not adjectives) of ΜΙΔΑΙ. In favour of that plead a number of arguments:

1. the typology of inscriptions, the set language and fairly rigid formulae, which usually include the following elements: Dedicator + items identifying the dedicator + Dedicand (usually divine or semi-divine) + items identifying the dedicand + verbum dandi sive facendi.
2. the comparison with Greek, in which LaFagetes and Fanax are nouns, not verbs (although the first term, does, indeed, contain a verb)
3. the ending in -I, similar in all three words of the sequence, which is what one would expect from a Dative

Against your position,  considering the sequence ΛΑFΑΓΤΑΕΙ : FΑΝΑΚΤΕΙ as being formed by two verbs, pleads IE comparison, where verbal endings were divided into two series, principal endings and secundary endings: mi/si/ti : m/s/t. That in Attic dialect one has the ending -ei for III singular is simply a phonetic accident: e-ti > e-si (asibilation of intervocalic t) > e-i (intervocalic s drops) > ei (contraction). Other inscriptions plead against such a phenomenon having occurred in Phrygian. One has, for example, the form egeseti (possibly a future tense), where you can clearly see the principal ending -ti. It is therefore more likely that ΕΔΑΕΣ is the verbal form, because the final Σ is easier to explain away than a final EI.


Edited by khshayathiya - 12-Mar-2009 at 12:19
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1899
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 12:33

Flipper,

 
The old Phrygian inscription corpus is nevertheless relatively late, i.e. ~ 800 BC, which is a time where Phyrgian and Greek were arguably in contact (if not directly, surely through intermediary Anatolian languages). However I said loanword or cognate, the latter meaning it's only a parallel development (as suggested by Brixhe among others).
I don't understand why you say this inscription is controversial or that those two words are verbs. Virtually all scholars I consulted seem to agree this is a dedication and almost all consider lavaktaei and vanaktei adjectives or nouns in the same oblique case as Midai. Perhaps there are some disagreements on what each word would exactly mean (but that's mostly because the information is too scarce to allow a definitive answer). My current bibliography for this topic (directly consulted or following other scholars' bibliography) is:
 
Michel Lejeune, "A propos de la titulature de Midas", Athenaeum 47 (1969), 179-192
Claude Brixhe, Michel Lejeune, Corpus des inscriptions paléo-phrygiennes (1984)
Frank de Graaf, "Midas Wanax Lawagetas" in Thracians and Mycenaeans (Brill, 1989), 153-155
J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams (eds.), Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture (1997), see the article "Phrygian language", 418-420
Claude Brixhe, "Phrygian" in Roger Woodard's The Ancient Languages of Asia Minor (2008), 69-80
Yaroslav Gorbachov, "The origin of the Phrygian edaes-type aorist": http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/pies/pdfs/IEC/IEC16/Gorbachov_Y_2004.pdf
 
Since you mentioned Lubotsky as well, I'll link the entries which are relevant to this inscription:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 12-Mar-2009 at 12:40
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Status: Offline
Points: 1814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 14:50
Thanks Chilbudios. I appreciate your help.
I use the same database often to lookup words. Unfortunately bibliography on Phrygian is usually rare and what you find is bits and pieces of information. I don't remember exactly were i read wanaktei and lawaktaei should be the verbal form instead of the adjective, but sound wise it could be correct. I think this was concluded by the fact it is a -ei ending. In any case the point is made about what it is said on the inscription.

As for Midai, i believe as well it is dative.

Now, you're right about Palaeophrygian. The dating is at a time when they could have been  in contact with Ionians. Basically, it is very probable. However, i remember that it is considered that most cognates found at that time (800-600) like 'auto' (which we have in many forms attested in Phrygian) are not loadwords from Greek, but shared words of a Greco-Phrygian group.

Now, i said the script is controversial because there are so many explanations from various sides. Look at this one: http://www.xanga.com/Longobardese/631280107/59-a-phrygian-inscription/

I found this one now and i see that i was not the only one to assume agavos ment nobble.

ATES: ARKIA EFAIS AKENANOTAFOS: MIDAI: PAFAPa TAEI: FANA Ki TEI: EDAES

Ofcourse, that link doesn't seem correct. At least the way he breaks it up is a bit...i dunno.

In any case look his translation...You can translate it in so many ways, that are similar but you don't know what is correct.

"ATES: ARKIA EFAIS AKENANO TAFOS: MIDAI: PAFAPa TAEI: FANA Ki TEI: EDAES [Translation: To Attys or father, ates, (Etr. ATES) the archon (Etr. ARCIA, Gr. archon) he spoke out (L. effor-fari; Etr. EFA, EFAN, EFAS, EFE) of Akenano, name : Akenanos, another form of Cernnunos? or Ascanios of Taphos? alternatively, of the tomb (Gk. taphi [taΦη], burial, internment; taphos [taΦoς], grave, tomb): Midas or alternatively, Media (L. Medi-orum, the Medes), or the middle (L. media, subst. i.e., media via, middle way) or, as a verb, he healed (L. medeor-eri): he feared (L. paveo, pavere; It. paura, fear; Fr. peur, dread; Etr. PAF, PAFA) the pine-wood (L. taeda-a, pine-wood, a torch, esp. as used at weddings): Taei; the holy place, temple grounds (L. fanum-i; Etr. FANI) who, which, what, that, wherefore, whereby (L. qui, quae, quod; It. chi; Fr. qui; Etr. KI, Ki) of the god (L. deus, divus, di, divi, dea, diva; It. dio, dia; Fr. dieu, dieux, deese; Etr. TEI, TEIS, TEIFA) you will produce, bring out (L. edo-edere-didi-ditum, fut. edes; Etr. ETA, ETES, ETO); alternatively it could be Hades, Hell. Hades' name in Etruscan, as seen in the Tomb of Orcos, is ATAI.]



It's confusing, isn't it? Some other inscriptions are translated safely, but because some forms are not widely attested in many forms (e.g some verbs) it is hard to know the tense, the usage etc.




Edited by Flipper - 12-Mar-2009 at 14:53


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Status: Offline
Points: 1814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 14:51
Btw, I saw a site once where a guy used Lydian and Latin to make translations on Phrygian and trust me, it was not far from other suggested translations that were based mainly on Greek cognates. I find that fascinating! 


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
khshayathiya View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 20-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 15:17
There are always conflicting interpretations when not everybody agrees on what words actually can be read on an inscription.

That's half the fun, I'd say ...
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1899
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 08:25
Flipper, I'd be careful about that xanga.com site. To me looks like pseudo-science, i.e. fetching whatever words from whatever languages to create a meaning. Many people like to decipher such puzzles (here we are Tongue), however there are disciplines such as paleography, epigraphy, linguistics, it's not some sort of "anything goes".
 
But you're right that in poorly known languages (like Phrygian) the interpretation is burdened by the poor attestation of forms, by a relatively large number of hapaxes, by relatively unknown linguistic environments, circumstances which generally make scholars to take all these hypotheses cum grano salis, no matter how seductive they are.
 
 
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Status: Offline
Points: 1814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 15:46
Yes indeed Chibuldios.
I've seen a lot of such attempts. And this sentense can be a nice bate for "anything goes". I just googled one of the sentence's words and i found it.


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.