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Forum LockedAntonio Rubino SJ in Chandragiri , Andhra, India

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M. Nachiappan View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 01:21

Giovanni Antonio Rubino (1578-1643) was a student of Christoph Clavious (1537-1612) and he was sent to India just like Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) to China. Of course, both worked together in Cochin. As he was establishing the Collegio Romano as a centre of mathematical and astronomical skill and authority, he was at full-swing in getting all mathematical and astronomical books from India. As a faithful student, he wrote from Chandrapur, the seat of the Rajah of Vijayanagar, to Clavius in 1609 as follows:

 

“I am in the great Kingdom of Bisnagà, attempting to procure the conversion of these souls, but for the moment clausa est ianua, we are waiting for the Lord to open it, so that many souls will be saved from going miserably to hell. The Brahmans, who are the literati of this kingdom, are very given to the cognition of the movements and conjunctions of the planets and stars, and in particular of 27 of them by which they govern and rule themselves. Your Reverence will be amazed at how they predict the hour and minute of eclipses of the sun and the moon, without knowing the way in which eclipses occur. I have attempted many times to make them state the way in which they derive the conjunctions of the planets, but I was never able to get them to declare it, and they don't wish to teach the things they know to others, except in secret to their relatives”.

 
I would be very much obliged, if anyone could provide more details about Antonio Rubino, particularly his photo etc.
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I don't have the photo, but what he stated is true to the classical behavioural mentality of his tribe of people.
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Just like the transmission of Calculus from India to Europe, Kepler appeared to have received details of planetary motion from the Indians through, these SJs, including Roberto de Nobili.
 
Unfortunately, as an Indian, as I cannot have access to their documents, I am not able to get full details.
 
Even the articles / papers come across during browsing are also not accessible, as the owners / publishers of research journals ask to get registered by paying in dollars, which I cannot afford to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 03:34
Arya Bhatta had made these astronomical calculations more than a thousand years earlier. Same with Pythagoras theoram et el.....
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Yes, Vedas are there.
 
Vedanga Jyotisa is there (c.1450 BCE)
 
Surya Siddhanta is there.
 
And then comes Aryabhata etc.
 
Here, in the 17th century, the Europeans were struggling to navigate scientifically to come to India, for that, they sarted collecting details and books from India.
 
That Vasco da Gama in 1498, came with an Indian navigator has been now well known.
 
Thus, how the books reached them through the Jesuits from South India is the are of research.
 
If more information is available, it would be interesting particularly about Christoph Clavius.
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Though, it is evident that you quoted from "Establishing Mathematical Authority: The Politics of Christoph Clavius", you did nnot mention the sentence followed:
 

Adding Rubino submitted that, “There is nothing that I desire more than Your Reverence’s Astrolabium, which is not to be found in the whole of the Indies”.

 
However, this is wrong, as there had been Indian Astrolabes in India. At present, the scholars have been of the view that it was there since 14th century, probably after its introduction into India by Al-beruni in 11th century. However, considering the concept of Astrolabe and the description found in the Siddhantic works, it is evident that they had been available since the period of Siddhanta. The earlier Indian Astrolabes must have been taken away by the Arabs and claimed as their invention. Tycho Brahe (1546-1601) alludes to one obtained from India.
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 04:35
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan M. Nachiappan wrote:

Just like the transmission of Calculus from India to Europe,
 
Obviously you have the proofs of this claim, haven't you?
 
 
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan M. Nachiappan wrote:

Kepler appeared to have received details of planetary motion from the Indians through, these SJs, including Roberto de Nobili.
 
 
Appeared? Appeared to whom? Maybe to someone who has "somenthing" to prove without any evidence ...
 
 
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan M. Nachiappan wrote:

Unfortunately, as an Indian, as I cannot have access to their documents, I am not able to get full details.
 
 
Oh, what an admission of ignorance ... so you have no proofs of your claims ...
 
 
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan M. Nachiappan wrote:

Even the articles / papers come across during browsing are also not accessible, as the owners / publishers of research journals ask to get registered by paying in dollars, which I cannot afford to.
 
 
Damned westerners ...
 
 
A gift for you: a picture of Antonio de Nobili
 


Edited by Leonardo - 14-Jan-2007 at 04:50
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Originally posted by Vivek Sharma Vivek Sharma wrote:

I don't have the photo, but what he stated is true to the classical behavioural mentality of his tribe of people.
 
 
What are you talking about? Which tribe?
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Originally posted by M. Nachiappan M. Nachiappan wrote:

Yes, Vedas are there.
 
Vedanga Jyotisa is there (c.1450 BCE)
 
Surya Siddhanta is there.
 
And then comes Aryabhata etc.
 
Here, in the 17th century, the Europeans were struggling to navigate scientifically to come to India, for that, they sarted collecting details and books from India.
 
That Vasco da Gama in 1498, came with an Indian navigator has been now well known.
 
Thus, how the books reached them through the Jesuits from South India is the are of research.
 
If more information is available, it would be interesting particularly about Christoph Clavius.
 
 
Indian sources on Yavana learning:
  • A comment in "Brihat-Samhita" by the mathematician Varahamihira says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be honored since they were trained in sciences and therein, excelled others....." ("mleccha hi yavanah tesu samyak shastram kdamsthitam/ rsivat te 'p i pujyante kim punar daivavid dvijah" (Brihat-Samhita 2.15)).
  • Also the Mahabharata compliments the Greeks as "the all-knowing Yavanas" (sarvajnaa yavanaa): "The Yavanas, O king, are all-knowing; the Suras are particularly so. The mlecchas are wedded to the creations of their own fancy." ("sarvajnaa yavanaa rajan shuraaz caiva vishesatah/ mlecchah svasamjnaa niyataanaanukta itaro janah (Mahabharata VIII.31.80))
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Mr. Leonardo from Italy,

 

Thank you for your response. I would like to respond as follows:

 

1. About the transmission of Calculus from India to Europe, C. K. Raju has written enough and the interested can get his articles on the web.

 

2. Vincent Cronin in his book, “A Pearl to India” has given details. Of course, there have been many other papers:

 

1.     Planet fakery exposed. Falsified data: Johannes Kepler”, The Times, London,             January 25,      1990, 31a, including large exerpts from the article by –

William J. Broad, “After 400 years, a challenge to Kepler: He fabricated his data, scholars say”,             New York Times January 23, 1990, C1, 6.

 

2.     The key article is Willliam Donahue, “Kepler’s fabricated figures: Covering up the mess in the New Astronomy,” Journal for the History of Astronomy, 19 (1988), p.217-37.

 

3.     K. V. Ramakrishna Rao, Saltpetre, the British and the Missionaries, Proceedings of the 12th session of Tamilnadu history Congress held at Mayiladhurai from September 30th to October 2nd 2005. pp.114-116.

 

4.     ......................................, The Scientific Pursuits of Roberto de Nobili (1577-1656) in the Tamilagam, a paper presented at the 25th session of South Indian History Congress, held a Madurai from January 20-22, 2005.

 

5.     …..……………………………………, When a French Astronomer Learned Astronomy in Tamilnadu, a paper presented during a seminar “Contribution of Tribals of Tamilnadu” held at Madras from June 17th to 18th, 2006 at Meenakshi college (to appear in the proceedings).

 

6.     ……………………………………….., European Scientists: Indian Chronology and Historiography, XXth Session of South Indian History Congress held at Tiruvananthapuram from Feb.25-27, 2002.

 

……………………………………….., The Interest of European Scientists  in Indian Chronology and Historiography, UGC Seminar on Situating Historical Writings in Post-Independence India (Abstracts volume), held at Bharathidasan University on March 23 & 23, 2002, Tiruchirappalli, pp.16-17.

 

………………………………….….., The Interest of European Scientists in Indian Calendar and Chronology, in Indian Calendar and Chronology (Seminar papers) held at Central Mining Research Institute, Dhanbad on August 9 & 10, 2003, pp.1-20.

 

7.     …………………………………….., The Otherside of the Great Arc – The Great Trigonometrical Survey Conducted, a paper presented at the 24th session of SIHC held at Calicut from February 16-18, 2004.

 

3. About your sarcastic remarks, not that we do not know, but without seeing the sources, we do not want to commit.

 

4. We respect all, but the fact being, the Indians cannot afford to pay in getting copies of research papers through internet. Ironically, Indian papers are offered for sale, when they are available in India freely.

 

5. I am sorry, “your gift” is wrong, yes, you have given the figure of “Roberto de Nobili” as “Antonio de Nobili”, but not that of Antonio Rubino. So next time, you give any gift do it correctly. By the way, who is this “Antonio de Nobili”?

 

6. We do not condemn westerners, as they have done a lot, but only point out when some of them write or interpret just to denigrate, disparage or disrespect Indian historical processes.

 

7. Your quotation of Varahamihira and Mahabharata are very appropriate. Yes, we respect and acknowledge the source of information and knowledge and do not claim as ours or destroying the originals and proclaim that we are authors of so and so and so on. But, you see the books, encyclopedias, reference books coming from the west, India is not acknowledged for the knowledge derived from Indians. In fact, in the context of many subjects, Indian contribution is not even whispered, but interpreted other way, as if Indians borrowed everything from others.

 

History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao K. V. Ramakrishna Rao wrote:

Mr. Leonardo from Italy,

 

Thank you for your response. I would like to respond as follows:

 

1. About the transmission of Calculus from India to Europe, C. K. Raju has written enough and the interested can get his articles on the web.

 
I suppose you refer to this article: http://www.hinduwisdom.info/calculus.pdf 
Please, can you show me where in this article is cited a single proof of his claims. I was not able to find them.
 
 

Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao K. V. Ramakrishna Rao wrote:

2. Vincent Cronin in his book, “A Pearl to India” has given details.

 
 
I hope his detailed proofs are better than those of Raju ... (sorry, sarcasm another time Smile)
 
 
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao K. V. Ramakrishna Rao wrote:

Of course, there have been many other papers:

 

1.     Planet fakery exposed. Falsified data: Johannes Kepler”, The Times, London,             January 25,      1990, 31a, including large exerpts from the article by –

William J. Broad, “After 400 years, a challenge to Kepler: He fabricated his data, scholars say”,             New York Times January 23, 1990, C1, 6.

 

2.     The key article is Willliam Donahue, “Kepler’s fabricated figures: Covering up the mess in the New Astronomy,” Journal for the History of Astronomy, 19 (1988), p.217-37.

 

3.     K. V. Ramakrishna Rao, Saltpetre, the British and the Missionaries, Proceedings of the 12th session of Tamilnadu history Congress held at Mayiladhurai from September 30th to October 2nd 2005. pp.114-116.

 

4.     ......................................, The Scientific Pursuits of Roberto de Nobili (1577-1656) in the Tamilagam, a paper presented at the 25th session of South Indian History Congress, held a Madurai from January 20-22, 2005.

 

5.     …..……………………………………, When a French Astronomer Learned Astronomy in Tamilnadu, a paper presented during a seminar “Contribution of Tribals of Tamilnadu” held at Madras from June 17th to 18th, 2006 at Meenakshi college (to appear in the proceedings).

 

6.     ……………………………………….., European Scientists: Indian Chronology and Historiography, XXth Session of South Indian History Congress held at Tiruvananthapuram from Feb.25-27, 2002.

 

……………………………………….., The Interest of European Scientists  in Indian Chronology and Historiography, UGC Seminar on Situating Historical Writings in Post-Independence India (Abstracts volume), held at Bharathidasan University on March 23 & 23, 2002, Tiruchirappalli, pp.16-17.

 

………………………………….….., The Interest of European Scientists in Indian Calendar and Chronology, in Indian Calendar and Chronology (Seminar papers) held at Central Mining Research Institute, Dhanbad on August 9 & 10, 2003, pp.1-20.

 

7.     …………………………………….., The Otherside of the Great Arc – The Great Trigonometrical Survey Conducted, a paper presented at the 24th session of SIHC held at Calicut from February 16-18, 2004.

 
 
Very interesting, but ... Have they anything to do with our topic: the proofs of the trasmission of the calculus from India to Europe?

 

Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao K. V. Ramakrishna Rao wrote:

3. About your sarcastic remarks, not that we do not know, but without seeing the sources, we do not want to commit.

 
ClapClapClap Well said. Unfortunely you have written hundreds of words and not a single proof. Only claims from you.
 
(Sarcasm is sometimes necessary with people intoxicated by nationalism and ethnocentrism)
 
 

Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao K. V. Ramakrishna Rao wrote:

4. We respect all, but the fact being, the Indians cannot afford to pay in getting copies of research papers through internet. Ironically, Indian papers are offered for sale, when they are available in India freely.

 
Ironically ...
 
Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao K. V. Ramakrishna Rao wrote:

5. I am sorry, “your gift” is wrong, yes, you have given the figure of “Roberto de Nobili” as “Antonio de Nobili”, but not that of Antonio Rubino. So next time, you give any gift do it correctly. By the way, who is this “Antonio de Nobili”?

You are right this time, I'm very sorry.
 
I have made two mistakes: first, I haven't read correctly the name you wrote in your first post confusing it with that of de Nobili and, second, I have remembered wrong his first name, which was, as you correctly wrote, Roberto de Nobili ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_de_Nobili ).
 
Sorry again.
 

Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao K. V. Ramakrishna Rao wrote:

6. We do not condemn westerners, as they have done a lot, but only point out when some of them write or interpret just to denigrate, disparage or disrespect Indian historical processes.

 
Do you know the difference between a proof and a claim? Maybe you are right and it would be very interesting to see these claims confirmed, but unfortunely, from what you have posted till now, I can't see anything like a proof . I mean written, and verifiable contemporary documents which testify the asserted trasmission of the knowledge of calculus from India to Europe. Maybe you can prove that there was the knowledge of calculus in India before Europe, I concede this without problems, but this is not per se a proof that there was a trasmission from the former to the latter. Inventions can be also indipendent. Can you understand this?
 

Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao K. V. Ramakrishna Rao wrote:

7. Your quotation of Varahamihira and Mahabharata are very appropriate. Yes, we respect and acknowledge the source of information and knowledge and do not claim as ours or destroying the originals and proclaim that we are authors of so and so and so on. But, you see the books, encyclopedias, reference books coming from the west, India is not acknowledged for the knowledge derived from Indians. In fact, in the context of many subjects, Indian contribution is not even whispered, but interpreted other way, as if Indians borrowed everything from others.

 
I may agree with you if you refer to the past, particularly to colonial times. I disagree if you refer to nowadays ... Remember, we live in the time of the dicatatorship of politically correct, if you understand what I mean ...

 



Edited by Leonardo - 14-Jan-2007 at 10:17
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In addiction to what I've written I'd like to link the best site all over the web about the history of mathematics: http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/index.html
 
This site is even too "political correct" for my taste and I think it concedes too much to indian and "muslim" mathematics, but it's interesting what it says about our topic:
 

"In addition to my discussion, there is a very recent paper (written by D Almeida, J John and A Zadorozhnyy) of great interest, which goes as far as to suggest Keralese mathematics may have been transmitted to Europe. It is true that Kerala was in continuous contact with China, Arabia, and at the turn of the 16th century, Europe, thus transmission might well have been possible. However the current theory is that Keralese calculus remained localised until its discovery by Charles Whish in the late 19th century. There is no evidence of direct transmission by way of relevant manuscripts but there is evidence of methodological similarities, communication routes and a suitable chronology for transmission. "

 
So mere possibilities but no verifiable proofs at all.
 
So there is no need to rewrite the history of calculus in Europe as you can read here:


Edited by Leonardo - 14-Jan-2007 at 11:32
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I have already read the sites you have referred to.

 

As I have been concentrating in the transmission of medicinal manuscripts from India to Europe, right now, I do not want to go into this, i.e, transmission of mathematical manuscripts, particularly, calculus from India to Europe, more specifically, from Jesuits in India to or through manuscript procurers and sellers like Marin Merssene etc. (just for example), to Newton. At present, I do not think Leibniz (1646-1716) was also interested in Indian manuscripts like Newton.

 

So the study of transmission of Indian manuscripts to European doctors, physicians, etc., I came across references of the transmission of mathematical and astronomical manuscripts from India. I just give one example of medicine:

 

“Hendrick Adrian van Rheede (f.1636-1691): when landed in Kerala, was surprised to witness a great a Botanical garden there. In India, such gardens have been part of temples (Nanda vanam) and Hospitals (Muligaip Pannai). Interestingly, in his case, the modus operandi found is that he got written statements from the Indian doctors to that effect that as per the directions of him, they provided the medical data, information, books, samples and formulations. Three statements are reproduced below12:

 

“On the tenth of the black fortnight of Chaitra month and Rakshasa year of Salivahana saka 1597, on a camp at Cochin, we Rangabhatta, Vinayak Pandit and Appu Bhatta (eye physician) write the following testimony of truth so that no one should treat this as false: On a message from Adrikin Fondre, Commander of Cochin, we collected herbs, flowers, fruits which are used for medicine from this Malabar Desha through a person who was paid for it and who was specialized in discriminating medicinal plants. This material was collected in the various seasons when they are grown. Then on, all the herbs, fruits, flowers etc., were painted. Later on we testified and tallied this material with the descriptions in the Materia Medica which we had brought along with us. We then described these herbs, their effects etc., of which we had experimental knowledge. For the last two years both in mornings and evenings we are doing this. Whatever is written over here should not be treated as false hence we are attesting our signatures below.

 

Ranga Bhatta                  Vinayak Pandit                                        Apu Dev”

Written and signed in Marathi.

 

“By the order of Commander Hendrik Van Rheede, I, a Malabar Physician of the Ezhava caste, born in Kollad ouse at Kadakkarapally in Karapuram village came to the Cochin Fort and dictated as already agreed, the details of the trees, shrubs, creepers and grasses in Kerala providing with diagrams, and the medicinal treatment with them, from the practical experiences as well as the erudition from our precious old books, to Manuel Carner, the official translator of the Company, so as to record them in books, after clearing the doubts, in such manner that no learned men of this field in Kerala could find fault with it and for this it is written in Cochin Forst on 20th April, 1675.

Kollattuvaidyan

Written and signed in Kolaluthu script of Malayalam.

 

“BY the order of the Commamner Henrika Van Rheede, I Manuel Carner, born, married and put up in Cochin, working as the official translator of the Company at Cochin Fort, wrote down in books both in Malayalam and Portuguese languages separately, the details, virtues and uses of (medidicinal) trees, shrubs, creepers and grasses in Kerala and their flowers, fruits, seeds, roots and essences etc, being dictated by a Malabar Physician, Kolladan, belonging to Ezhava caste, born in Karapuram village, according to my previous agreement thus the work is completed after clearing all doubts and mistakes and for this agreement my signatrure in this writings in Cochin Fort on the day, the 19th April, 1675.

Manuel Carner

Written and signed in Grantha lipi of Malayalam.

 

Thus, the statements (which are amply self-explanatory in all aspects) have been direct evidence as to how the European doctors acquired Hindu medicine directly, rather extracted. The same modus operandi must have been followed by all other Doctors, Engineers, Chemists, etc., of all categories either Jesuits or Protestants. At least, their letter correspondence exposes such transaction taken place, shown in the context below”. [from my paper, The Transmission of Medical Knowledge from Tamizhagam to Europe (15th to 20th centuries), sent for the seminar held at Los Angeles from November 17th to 19th 2006. p.3].

 

So here only comes, our problem of getting the source materials. What about the similar statements recorded in the case of procurement of mathematical and astronomical palm-leaf books, instruments, gadgets etc., from Indians? The Europeans must be having and this is only I am pointing out that Indians are not able to access it.

 

Of course, I am studying the other way, i.e, what was the response of Indians in dealing with Jesuits and Europeans based on the literature of Siddhas. It gives evidences pointing to that “Parangiyar”, “Pothimattukkarar”, “Angiliyar” (i.e, Christian priests and whites of all sorts) had taken such books from them. Just read TLF Folly’s article in the web, which pints out the fact. So you have to provide such evidences, as you have access to them. After all, search for truth helps all.

 

Therefore, not that I want to write without evidences and all. The only problem is space (in AE) and time (for us). That is why I used to request several times be specific.

 

Incidentally, I have already informed the moderator about not posting of my papers, when I tried and I am yet to get any reply. If they allow, I shall post all the papers referred to so that they could be discussed and criticized for development.

 
Can I get a picture of Antonio Rubino?



Edited by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao - 14-Jan-2007 at 19:39
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