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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 14:44
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Proto-IE *sak (to cut) could be certainly changed to proto-Germanic *sax but the problem is that here "x" is never is pronounced as "ks" but as a hard "h", so there is no similarity between this Germanic word and Saks, except a common "s", but if the word is pronounced as "saks" then it has certainly another origin (according to Grimm's law), that, as I said, in all probablilty is from Iranian.

Please, read some linguistics first before claiming nonsense. You said you want to do serious research, so do it. Since you know nothing about the subject, do some research or else you're gonna look like a fool.

And I'm not gonna tell you where you're wrong. You think that you know more than all the linguists, so find out yourself.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 16:01
Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Please, read some linguistics first before claiming nonsense. You said you want to do serious research, so do it. Since you know nothing about the subject, do some research or else you're gonna look like a fool.

And I'm not gonna tell you where you're wrong. You think that you know more than all the linguists, so find out yourself.

I think that I know more than European linguists about the Iranian languages, I mean those ones who even don't know the differences between two simple Persian words but write books about this langauge and compare it with other Indo-European languages, why should I read these nonsense linguistic books? Please mention a linguistic book written by someone who is expert in Persian and can speak this language fluently, then I will certainly read it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 16:10
They all knew a lot more about Iranian languages than you do about European, so what makes your analyses more accurate? Wink

Edited by Styrbiorn - 08-Jun-2009 at 16:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 16:15
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:


I dunno if that went to me or Carcharodon, but since i took up the issue with the samis, i'm interrested because they're part of my nationality Smile

I know my swedish family tree from 1516AD and some people of that tree are from Norrland where the Samis live. I do believe that most Swedes (and Norwegians and Finnish) have a Sami background.
 
Yes, and there is also an ongoing debate here in Sweden about who were the first inhabitants in Sweden, the Saamis or others, what the Saamis geographical distribution once was, how much of current Swedish genome is Saami, the relations between Saamis and other ethnic groups and similar. These questions can sometimes be controversial since they touch on juridical matters like land rights and the right to natural resources like game and fish. They also touch questions of identity, ethnicity and cultural heritage. DNA researchers, archaeologist, anthropologists and historians have been dragged into this debate which is interesting to follow but sometimes get a bit emotional.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 16:19
What happened to Barbapapa's posts? They are all gone?!?!!?!?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 16:21
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I mean those ones who even don't know the differences between two simple Persian words but write books about this langauge and compare it with other Indo-European languages.


I'm absolutely no authority in Iranian nor your (all guys) debates here, but what you just mentioned does actually happen sometimes. Historians that portray themselves as Linguist experts can be sometimes blind in such a way that you wonder if they actually know more than simple basics of a language.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 16:27
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Yes, and there is also an ongoing debate here in Sweden about who were the first inhabitants in Sweden, the Saamis or others, what the Saamis geographical distribution once was, how much of current Swedish genome is Saami, the relations between Saamis and other ethnic groups and similar. These questions can sometimes be controversial since they touch on juridical matters like land rights and the right to natural resources like game and fish. They also touch questions of identity, ethnicity and cultural heritage. DNA researchers, archaeologist, anthropologists and historians have been dragged into this debate which is interesting to follow but sometimes get a bit emotional.


I've been away from Sweden since 2004 and i don't know how things are developing when it comes to Saamis. I remember there were some exceptions that wanted autonomy. However, i believe there are economopolitical games behind those individuals. Also, considering the standards in Sweden and the fact that those areas have 1/7 of the total population but cover 2/3 of the land mass, an autonomous state would be an utopia mathematically, unless they're willing to loose all standards.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 17:15
It seems that most Saamis in Sweden don´t want to have an autonoumous state. The debate is more about the right to certain natural resources.
 
There is also a debate going on inside the Saami communities about who shall be included in these rights. The Saamis who don´t own reindeer feel themselves locked out from certain legal and cultural rights concerning fishing, hunting and access to different resources.
These Saamis have even started a political party named "Jakt- och fiskesamerna" (the hunting and fishing Saamis) that are now represented in the Saami parliament (Sametinget), a representation for Saamis inside the Swedish political system.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 17:42
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

The only problem, Cyrus, is that Seax is a word that has cognates through out the Germanic languages and other Indo-European languages.  This ultimately points to an Indo-European origin of the word those cognates are as follow: O.L.Ger. sahs; O. Fris, sax; O. H. Ger, sahs; Ice, sax.  As you can see this word has a Germanic root of something like *sacz, which itself has an Indo-European root of *sek-/*sak-.  Other words from this IE root are Lat. secare (to cut) and Rus. sech (to cut), so as you can see the word seax has IE roots.  Any similarities between the word seax and any word from the Iranian languages can be explained by the common IE origin of both languages.

Please stop bringing up these tired old arguments that are easily proven wrong.  Your word comparisons do nothing to help you theory and anybody who knows a little about linguistics will be able to tear them apart.
Proto-IE *sak (to cut) could be certainly changed to proto-Germanic *sax but the problem is that here "x" is never is pronounced as "ks" but as a hard "h", so there is no similarity between this Germanic word and Saks, except a common "s", but if the word is pronounced as "saks" then it has certainly another origin (according to Grimm's law), that, as I said, in all probablilty is from Iranian.
According to Grimm's Law PIE *sak-/sek- > PGrm *sax-: whether the x would be pronounced the same as today is a different story since pronunciation, accent, and spelling change over time.  Grimm's Law would have an unvoiced velar change to a fricative velar–that is for example k > x.  Let's also not forget that Modern German has the noun Sax which means "seax" are the two related and derived from the same word, you bet.

You have yet to provide any sourcing for your claim that Seax comes from the Iranian languages and not the Germanic and ultimately Proto-Indo-European languages.  What is your source for this claim?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 18:01

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I think that I know more than European linguists about the Iranian languages, I mean those ones who even don't know the differences between two simple Persian words but write books about this langauge and compare it with other Indo-European languages, why should I read these nonsense linguistic books? Please mention a linguistic book written by someone who is expert in Persian and can speak this language fluently, then I will certainly read it.

I think you don't. And I don't know what to think about you. Now you say that western Iranologists are dumb, but when you named ''the greatest iranologists of the world'' you mentioned William Bayne Fisher, Ilya Gershevitch, Ehsan Yarshater, R. N. Frye, J. A. Boyle, Peter Jackson, Laurence Lockhart, Peter Avery, Gavin Hambly and Charles Melville. Take notice there is only one who speaks any Iranian language as his mother tongue. And after all, as Styrbiorn mentioned, all of them know not only more about Iranian languages, but especially about the rest, than you know. And probably than you'll ever know because you don't show a slightest interest in doing any serious research.

But I wasn't talking about Iranian studies at all. I want you to read some general linguistics - i.e. phonology, language reconstruction etc. Simply you need to gather some basic knowledge, unless you're just another pan-Iranist (and I have a strong feeling you really are). The fact that Persian is your native language and that you can speak a few other as well doesn't make you competent to arrogantly diminish western iranologists, because they definitely know much more than you. Perhaps their pronunciation is not as good, of course you're a better Persian speaker, but you know nothing about language comparison.

Again, do you want some books?? I'll send them to you, just PM me. Or you just want to continue with your fantastical pan-Iranian theories?? Act to your words and do some serious research. For instance, you can start even with the book that you yourself said was written by the greatest iranologists.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 11:35
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

It seems that most Saamis in Sweden don´t want to have an autonoumous state. The debate is more about the right to certain natural resources.
 
There is also a debate going on inside the Saami communities about who shall be included in these rights. The Saamis who don´t own reindeer feel themselves locked out from certain legal and cultural rights concerning fishing, hunting and access to different resources.
These Saamis have even started a political party named "Jakt- och fiskesamerna" (the hunting and fishing Saamis) that are now represented in the Saami parliament (Sametinget), a representation for Saamis inside the Swedish political system.
 
 
 


Hmm, i didn't know that. In any case, when it comes to autonomy as I said, it's about certain individuals, not like a group that represent the Saami community as a whole. Rather far from it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 11:51
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

It seems that most Saamis in Sweden don´t want to have an autonoumous state. The debate is more about the right to certain natural resources.
 
There is also a debate going on inside the Saami communities about who shall be included in these rights. The Saamis who don´t own reindeer feel themselves locked out from certain legal and cultural rights concerning fishing, hunting and access to different resources.
These Saamis have even started a political party named "Jakt- och fiskesamerna" (the hunting and fishing Saamis) that are now represented in the Saami parliament (Sametinget), a representation for Saamis inside the Swedish political system.
 
 
 


Hmm, i didn't know that. In any case, when it comes to autonomy as I said, it's about certain individuals, not like a group that represent the Saami community as a whole. Rather far from it.

There's quite a lot of fighting within the Sami community, particularly among those who own reindeers and those who don't. When it comes to autonomy, it's only Lappland where that kind of claim would make sense. The Scandinavian and Sami populations have been living side by side or intermixing for thousands of years in the other provinces (excepting Norr- & Västerbotten, where the Swedes came later). The Swedish kings or state stole the land from the local Scandinavians as much as they stole it from the Sami. Giving only the Sami the indigenous status is a kick in the groin on the Scandinavians whose ancestors also have been living there since the Ice disappeared 7-10,000 years ago.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 09-Jun-2009 at 11:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 12:47
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

There's quite a lot of fighting within the Sami community, particularly among those who own reindeers and those who don't. When it comes to autonomy, it's only Lappland where that kind of claim would make sense. The Scandinavian and Sami populations have been living side by side or intermixing for thousands of years in the other provinces (excepting Norr- & Västerbotten, where the Swedes came later). The Swedish kings or state stole the land from the local Scandinavians as much as they stole it from the Sami. Giving only the Sami the indigenous status is a kick in the groin on the Scandinavians whose ancestors also have been living there since the Ice disappeared 7-10,000 years ago.
 
The question who where the first in different areas has come to be very politically loaded. Some say the Samis where the first people to settle Scandinavia from the south, others say that some of their ancestors came from the east. Some say that Samis at least one time occupied Sweden down to the province of Uppland.
The questions about when and where are given different answers by different people. Scientists and other schoolars have also been dragged into this debate. Archeologists like Inger Zachrisson, Evert Badou, Stig Welinder and others have been asked by different sides in the conflict to give scientific support to their cause.


Edited by Carcharodon - 09-Jun-2009 at 12:50
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