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Carcharodon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 13:08
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


the questioned part is, that the reseller iGENEA claims to have data about ANCIENT groups of people and compares your data to them aswell. Estaminating to wich of these groups your profile is closest. The data for this is suposedly their own reseach and is considered "company secret".
 
That is somewhat of a flaw, it´s really difficult to evaluate secret sources of information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 13:37
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Maybe somewhat OT, but what computer program do you use when you make those maps?
Just curious, I want to start making maps too.


I use photoshop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 15:34
Originally posted by Falchion Falchion wrote:

The Saxons tribal name comes from the Seax which is derived from a word for "knife" in ancient Germanic languages because they used a particular very recognizable type of knife a lot. It as nothing to do with Scythians whose name comes from an old IE word for archer.

"Seax" is in fact the Scythian word for "Knife", the Germanic word should be similar to "Knife" (Old Norse knifr, Middle Low German knif, Middle Dutch cnijf, ...), if you know the differences between Centum and Satem languages (Centum=100 in Latin & Satem=100 in Avestan), then you can see that English "Knife" has been changed to "Skaif/Sakif" in the Iranian language, this Old Iranian word can be found in the Arabic language as Saif (knife, sword) -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saif  the English word Scimitar has also the same Iranian origin, also the famous Scythian weapon Sakar (Old Greek Sagaris -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagaris), Shikar, an English loanword from Persian relates to this word too: http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definitions/shikar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 15:51

Both Iranian and Germanic are Indoeuropean languages so it´s not to strange that at least some words resemble each other.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 18:04
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Falchion Falchion wrote:

The Saxons tribal name comes from the Seax which is derived from a word for "knife" in ancient Germanic languages because they used a particular very recognizable type of knife a lot. It as nothing to do with Scythians whose name comes from an old IE word for archer.

"Seax" is in fact the Scythian word for "Knife", the Germanic word should be similar to "Knife" (Old Norse knifr, Middle Low German knif, Middle Dutch cnijf, ...), if you know the differences between Centum and Satem languages (Centum=100 in Latin & Satem=100 in Avestan), then you can see that English "Knife" has been changed to "Skaif/Sakif" in the Iranian language, this Old Iranian word can be found in the Arabic language as Saif (knife, sword) -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saif  the English word Scimitar has also the same Iranian origin, also the famous Scythian weapon Sakar (Old Greek Sagaris -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagaris), Shikar, an English loanword from Persian relates to this word too: http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definitions/shikar
What is your source for claiming seax is a Scythian word?

The only problem, Cyrus, is that Seax is a word that has cognates through out the Germanic languages and other Indo-European languages.  This ultimately points to an Indo-European origin of the word those cognates are as follow: O.L.Ger. sahs; O. Fris, sax; O. H. Ger, sahs; Ice, sax.  As you can see this word has a Germanic root of something like *sacz, which itself has an Indo-European root of *sek-/*sak-.  Other words from this IE root are Lat. secare (to cut) and Rus. sech (to cut), so as you can see the word seax has IE roots.  Any similarities between the word seax and any word from the Iranian languages can be explained by the common IE origin of both languages.

Please stop bringing up these tired old arguments that are easily proven wrong.  Your word comparisons do nothing to help you theory and anybody who knows a little about linguistics will be able to tear them apart.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dacian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 01:26
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Dacian Dacian wrote:

Intresting indeed mostly the fact that even though the thracians were the most numerous people (according to Herodot) their traces remain only in the bulgarians if I read the maps correctly.

Furthermore as long as it is a dacian marker as they say and there is nowhere around how did they found it (more questions on this as acording to things known so far thracians and dacians were more or less "the same")


What you just mentioned is a reason why i was skeptic to those results and i even mentioned your example earlier. For example, in Romania, there should be huge amounts of "Thracian"/"Dacian" markers. Basically, "Thracian markers" should be all over the balkans. For example there were even Thracian communities in Piraeus and Athens. Even, the line before the Isthmus had Thracian settlements. I have never heard of a "Thracian genocide" that could make the most numerous group of people of the ancient world to dissappear. Otherwise it would have been recorded.




This was my thoughtflow as you cannot just wipe out a huge population but you can sure rename it or split it or whatever.

It might go deeper to the actual nomination of the markers as I will try to explain.
In europe out of the main groups of cultures most of them have enjoyed an "empire age".
like you have a power that is in the forefront of that culture (like Russia is the flagcarrier for the slavs). For sure there is difference between genetics and culture but the latter is usually more or less abusevely superimposed on the former.

Even though the thracians (I put the dacians in the same group culturaly and genetically for easyness as they shared the same exit out of history) being the most numerous they were never able to build a culture strong enough to rise an empire.

Being the only major group in Europe that failed to do so it is rather ignored and the ones around it are trying to split the "nobodies" between them if I may say so.

It is just my 2 eurocents on the matter that is based on human nature behavior and regarding the thracians is solely based on Herodot's note on them. From the statistical point of view (here is how beloved Gauss makes his way in history...appologies about it) unless a natural disaster occurs you just cannot wipe out a population.

Its true that things changed dramatically into the area, others came and went, other controlled, others got absorbed etc...but you get the mix in the best case scenario if not outwright absorbtion of the "small" in the "big"


I am aware that basing mostly only on Herodot doesnt make the strongest fundament but still I thought I'd share my view on this. (I said mostly as I've seen other genetic reports saying about a strong thracian presence in the balkan genetics...think also here on these forums)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 02:09
......

Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 07:52
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

 


Where did you get this map? To be honest i really doubt Greeks came as Greeks from the north outside the balkans. That is pretty much outdated. I tend to agree with Renfrews model where under neolithic times, people entered europe through anatolia, went north in the balkans to settle around the danube plains, created the BBII culture from which a Greco-Phrygian group emerged. I'm at work now so i don't have any maps to upload and show you what i mean.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 10:27
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 11:23
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 12:08

Do they have any info about what markers is present in the Sami population in Sweden, Norway, Finland and Russia? And what markers from the Sami are present in the non Sami Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish and Russian population?

It would be very interesting to know what archaeological (bones) material they had access to. Here in Sweden for example it´s hard for a private company to get access to such material if they are not willing to openly publish the results (and exactly what material and methods they used to get that result).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 12:13
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


Wouldnt that make Alexander the Great a true blooded Barbarian?


Alexander = Temenidae family (Argos) & Aecidae family (Epirus). He was not a true native.

Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

[quote]
And the "Greeks" already lived in Greece, build up by G2a, E-V13 and J2, all coming in from Anatolia.


Correct...However, those people build up by G2a, E-V13, I2 and J2 were not "Greeks" at that time since there was no ethnic identity amongst them, but probably a tribal one.  As for the language and identity, it was not even proto-Greek, but that formed with the invation of the farmers from northern balkanic terrotories. So, there are no Greeks without the BBHII culture that settled in the north.

If you look at the link you posted, it agrees with what i told you in the first map. Thessalian Neolithic is Renfrews model I mentioned. The Thessalo-Macedonian culture of Sesklo formed around 6000BC and came also from Anatolia. However, not all of those people stayed in Thessaly but moved up to the Balkans to form new groups with other people. This is demonstrated somehow if you look at all the maps together on that site.

This is just a small summary of the story verified with this publication: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_199902/ai_n8845695/pg_4/?tag=content;col1


Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


And next it claims, R1b entered Greece with the Dorians.

Wait, it does not "claim" but "suggest".

One must take some of the things with some pepper and salt though. But interesting ideas to match modern haplogroup presence to neolithic and Bronce Age cultures.

Virtually all haplogroups entered Europe by Anatolia.
Except R1a and N, who both came in over Russia.


The Dorians did not enter Greece, they moved during the bronse age north and settled around the Pindus chain in Greece. They were no outsiders or something, just people that isolated themselves for some centuries and returned to the south. The ancient authors therefore call their invation as "The return of the Heraclidae". Their language is more archaic and close to Mycenaean than most of the southern counterparts.




Edited by Flipper - 08-Jun-2009 at 13:22


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 12:21
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 12:27
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Here in Sweden for example it´s hard for a private company to get access to such material if they are not willing to openly publish the results (and exactly what material and methods they used to get that result).


I recon that! That's why i doubted the titles they put on the markers. In the thread "Minoans originated from Anatolia", it took 5 or 6 universities in Usa, Canada, Greece and Turkey in order to finish the research. Such data is usually very hard to reach for a private sector because it requeres special permission from the archeological council (damn difficult to get in Greece and Turkey) and ofcourse blood samples from people living near neolithic settlements e.g Crete.

When I contacted Biobanken in Sweden on that matter, they said "Men att gå djupare än så på individnivå är inte seriöst" and told me that only www.genteknik.nu can give more answers.

I think, such a research in such a deep is only made in scholarly circles of special university projects.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 12:34
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

It would be very interesting to know what archaeological (bones) material they had access to. Here in Sweden for example it´s hard for a private company to get access to such material if they are not willing to openly publish the results (and exactly what material and methods they used to get that result).


From genteknik.nu

Kritik mot biologiska informationsbanker


Risk för intrång

Många fruktar att de dataregister som ska byggas upp blir ett hot mot den personliga integriteten. I registren ska visserligen namn och personnummer bytas ut mot en opersonlig kod. Men i andra databaser kommer det att finnas översättningar mellan namn och koder, så att nya personer, som förs in i registren ska kunna föras in i släktträden på rätt sätt. Många tror därför att det kan bli möjligt för utomstående att komma åt uppgifter i registren.



Samtycke

Vidare kritiseras många biologiska informationsbanker för att man lagrar information från enskilda människor utan att ha fått deras samtycke. Vilka regler som ska gälla för detta är för tillfället oklart.



Vem har rätt till vinsten?

Många kritiserar att dessa informationsbanker hamnar hos privata företag. Att de får rätt till de patent eller vinster informationen kan ge upphov till. Trots att informationen kommer från alla människor materialet samlats in från. Från tiotusentals patienter, som litat på sina läkare. Och från tusentals läkare, som nogrannt sparat prover och journalanteckningar. Och från dem som i generationer hållit ordning på kyrkobokföringar.





In other words, there's an issue in Sweden about publishing DNA databanks and the idea that private organizations can get access to those samples. Therefore, I don't find it probable at all, that private companies have access to ancient Viking relics.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 12:36
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 12:59
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


What makes you so interested in Saami? Do you belong to that subpopulation?


I dunno if that went to me or Carcharodon, but since i took up the issue with the samis, i'm interrested because they're part of my nationality Smile

I know my swedish family tree from 1516AD and some people of that tree are from Norrland where the Samis live. I do believe that most Swedes (and Norwegians and Finnish) have a Sami background.


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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:57
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 14:15
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

The only problem, Cyrus, is that Seax is a word that has cognates through out the Germanic languages and other Indo-European languages.  This ultimately points to an Indo-European origin of the word those cognates are as follow: O.L.Ger. sahs; O. Fris, sax; O. H. Ger, sahs; Ice, sax.  As you can see this word has a Germanic root of something like *sacz, which itself has an Indo-European root of *sek-/*sak-.  Other words from this IE root are Lat. secare (to cut) and Rus. sech (to cut), so as you can see the word seax has IE roots.  Any similarities between the word seax and any word from the Iranian languages can be explained by the common IE origin of both languages.

Please stop bringing up these tired old arguments that are easily proven wrong.  Your word comparisons do nothing to help you theory and anybody who knows a little about linguistics will be able to tear them apart.
Proto-IE *sak (to cut) could be certainly changed to proto-Germanic *sax but the problem is that here "x" is never is pronounced as "ks" but as a hard "h", so there is no similarity between this Germanic word and Saks, except a common "s", but if the word is pronounced as "saks" then it has certainly another origin (according to Grimm's law), that, as I said, in all probablilty is from Iranian.
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