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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2009 at 06:27
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I don't want to say that all those names certainly relate to Scythians but we know for sure that Scythians called their land Saksen, as Pliny, Strabo and other ancient historians and geographers have mentioned and we also know that Scythians lived in those regions, especially in Germany and Poland, a book which has been written by the greatest Iranologists of the world is The Cambridge History of Iran, by William Bayne Fisher, Ilya Gershevitch, Ehsan Yarshater, R. N. Frye, J. A. Boyle, Peter Jackson, Laurence Lockhart, Peter Avery, Gavin Hambly and Charles Melville, this book talks about the Scythian presence in these region and has provided several evidences, for example look at this page: The Cambridge History of Iran, page 192
 
Cyrus I have already dealt with this map in the Original Inhabitants of England thread, why must you recycle such tired theories.  Here is what I said regarding this map:
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Cyrus, allow me to draw your attention to the map key for a moment.  In this key you will see that the areas of the Scythian culture are marked with a boundary represented by a line of short dashes broken by a dot.  The area for which this is a boundary only goes slightly past the Dnieper River and does not touch the Vistula.  The other boundaries demarcated on this map are the Lusatian Culture and Hallstatt culture.
 As you can see the boundaries of this map would indicate that aside from raids the Scythians were mostly in Ukraine and the surrounding area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2009 at 07:31
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Just because a travel site on the internet says it was like that it doen´t mean it really was so. Archeological evidence can many times be interpreted in many ways, so one shall be careful before making statements.
 
So it should really be interesting to know if there is any concensus among Polish and German historians and archaeologists about the Scythian presence.
If you don't want to believe the historical facts then hundreds historical and archaeological books about the Scythian presence can't change your false belief, first you need to know totally about the history of this region, I suggest that you read this book: A history of Eastern Europe By Robert Bideleux, Ian Jeffries (Published by Taylor & Francis, 2007)
 
You can read in this page:
 
 
then if you want to know more about the Lusatian culture, read this book -> Historical dictionary of Poland, By George J. Lerski, Jerzy Jan Lerski, Piotr Wróbel, Richard J. Kozicki:
 
 
There are several books about it by Polish historians and archaeologists, for example look at this book: The Scythian Influence in the Area of Lusatian Culture by Bukowski, Zbigniew (Published by Warsaw Polish Academy of Sciences Institute of the History of Material Culture )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2009 at 13:45
Still the extent and nature of Scythian precense is debated in European Archaology (except by migrationists and nationalistic historians). Unfortunately there are some people who are not up to date with the most rescent research, they still tend to explain history in simplified terms of migration and diffusion.
 
One must always be a little carefull with such explanatory models.


Edited by Carcharodon - 06-Jun-2009 at 00:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2009 at 20:36
I don't know since when eurocentrists have decided to deny the presence of Scythians and other Iranian-speaking people in Europe, but as you read in this thread, genetic evidences also support this historical fact which has been mentioned in almost all ancient sources too, you can't change recorded history just because you don't like to be any connection between Saxons and Saksens (Scythians).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2009 at 21:08

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I don't know since when eurocentrists have decided to deny the presence of Scythians and other Iranian-speaking people in Europe, but as you read in this thread, genetic evidences also support this historical fact which has been mentioned in almost all ancient sources too, you can't change recorded history just because you don't like to be any connection between Saxons and Saksens (Scythians).

No one here said or implied anything even close to your claim about eurocentrists.

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2009 at 21:34
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I don't know since when eurocentrists have decided to deny the presence of Scythians and other Iranian-speaking people in Europe, but as you read in this thread, genetic evidences also support this historical fact which has been mentioned in almost all ancient sources too, you can't change recorded history just because you don't like to be any connection between Saxons and Saksens (Scythians).
 
Noone here has any eurocentric agenda, but one must always be careful when one interprets archaeological and historical data. Also DNA requires meticolous studies when one shall try to translate them into real conditions regarding migrations and settlement patterns.
 
And supeficial similarities between place names are even more difficult since such similarities often can be severly misleading.


Edited by Carcharodon - 05-Jun-2009 at 21:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2009 at 18:02
What can be your reason for denying this historical fact except eurocentrism when all archaeological, historical, genetic and other evidences strongly support it?!! We see the anthropological evidences also say the same thing, anthropologists consider Saxons as belonging to a Nordic-Iranan type (Type D), am I wrong? You can read many things about the Nordic-Iranian type in this book: The People By J. L. Angel, you can read here:
 
According to Angel, "Nordic-Iranians were tall and muscular, strong-necked, and probably included tawny-haired blue- or green-eyed blonds as well as brunets." Angel also mentions the "noteworthy resemblances" of this type "to Anglo-Saxons".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2009 at 18:17
It seems that it is you who have some Irano-centric agenda with all your strange postings in different threads that denies all archaeological, linguistic and historical facts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2009 at 18:58
These are just strange for you, because if you read historical sources then you see that almost all related ones talk about these things, I say "Nordic-Iranian", not pure Germanic, Nodic or Iranian, the problem is that the people like you never want to believe that there could be any influence from the east, so you won't even say that Saxons were Germanized-Scythians (Saksens).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2009 at 19:02
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

These are just strange for you, because if you read historical sources then you see that almost all related ones talk about these things, I say "Nordic-Iranian", not pure Germanic, Nodic or Iranian, the problem is that the people like you never want to believe that there could be any influence from the east, so you won't even say that Saxons were Germanized-Scythians (Saksens).
You have been shown wrong on this point many times, and when you are shown wrong you change the terms of comparison so that your theory seems to work better, this doesn't change the fact that the theory is not supported by facts.  For instance if you look at the map above you will see that the Scythians were nowhere near where the Saxons live/lived.  There isn't even an archaeological find in Saxon areas that relates to the Scythians.

Edited by King John - 06-Jun-2009 at 19:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Falchion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2009 at 19:19
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

What can be your reason for denying this historical fact except eurocentrism when all archaeological, historical, genetic and other evidences strongly support it?!! We see the anthropological evidences also say the same thing, anthropologists consider Saxons as belonging to a Nordic-Iranan type (Type D), am I wrong? You can read many things about the Nordic-Iranian type in this book: The People By J. L. Angel, you can read here:
 
According to Angel, "Nordic-Iranians were tall and muscular, strong-necked, and probably included tawny-haired blue- or green-eyed blonds as well as brunets." Angel also mentions the "noteworthy resemblances" of this type "to Anglo-Saxons".


These "anthropological types" you speak of are obsolete. Angel's cstudies are mostly from 1940's. That's when nazi-scientists racial theories became popular. Their studies where politically motivated in proving that the "Aryan race" is some blue eyed blond Nordic supermen who conquered most of Eurasia as Scythians, Vikings, Germans etc.
Angel used measuring skulls and other questionable methods to prove these theories. Unfortunately they knew nothing of DNA that goes much deeper than the color of ones hair or the size of a persons nose.

Anthropology has changed a lot after Angel's time especially when modern DNA research started to really play a role in science.

The Saxons tribal name comes from the Seax which is derived from a word for "knife" in ancient Germanic languages because they used a particular very recognizable type of knife a lot. It as nothing to do with Scythians whose name comes from an old IE word for archer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dacian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2009 at 22:05
Intresting indeed mostly the fact that even though the thracians were the most numerous people (according to Herodot) their traces remain only in the bulgarians if I read the maps correctly.

Furthermore as long as it is a dacian marker as they say and there is nowhere around how did they found it (more questions on this as acording to things known so far thracians and dacians were more or less "the same")

Especially when you surely can extinguish a culture if you put alot of effort into it....but extinguishing a population takes many more times the effort and timespan (even with the XXth century industrialization methods it failed miserably - Hitlers attempt)


With the usual "only time and other research will prove or disprove it" it goes along with the other studies as reference. Good info
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 03:06
---


Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 10:25
Originally posted by Dacian Dacian wrote:

Intresting indeed mostly the fact that even though the thracians were the most numerous people (according to Herodot) their traces remain only in the bulgarians if I read the maps correctly.

Furthermore as long as it is a dacian marker as they say and there is nowhere around how did they found it (more questions on this as acording to things known so far thracians and dacians were more or less "the same")


What you just mentioned is a reason why i was skeptic to those results and i even mentioned your example earlier. For example, in Romania, there should be huge amounts of "Thracian"/"Dacian" markers. Basically, "Thracian markers" should be all over the balkans. For example there were even Thracian communities in Piraeus and Athens. Even, the line before the Isthmus had Thracian settlements. I have never heard of a "Thracian genocide" that could make the most numerous group of people of the ancient world to dissappear. Otherwise it would have been recorded.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 10:43
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

Quote Furthermore as long as it is a dacian marker as they say and there is nowhere around how did they found it

They claim its found in Dacian mummies.
"Nowhere around" (less than 1%) in modern populations.


Yes, but how is it possible for Romania not to have a big amount of Dacian? I mean, personally I see Romanians as Latinized indegious people of Dacia and greater Thrace. Can you recall an event that totally vanished them from the face of earth?

Btw, i got response from the swedish biobank.

What they told me is the following (translation below)


Visst är det möjligt idag via den genetiska profilen att få en uppskattning
av en individs genetiska ursprung. Men att gå djupare än så på individnivå
är inte seriöst. Det finns många mer eller mindre seriösa företag runt om i
världen som erbjuder genetiska tester.


Sjukvården kan tyvärr inte ge några tips om pålitliga företag.


Mer information på www.genteknik.nu

Translation
Ofcourse it is possible today, through genetic profiles get an estimation of an individuals genetic origins. But to go deeper than that in an individual level is not serious. There are many serious and non serious companies around the world that can give you a genetic test.

Unfortunately we can't tell you which ones are trustworthy.

You can get more info about that on www.genteknik.nu

So basically, they are just a database. The analysis is done by the organization they linked me to.


But however, it seems that you got no indicators if you're Bavarian or Russian or whatever. You just got a trace geographically where your genes are most common right?







Edited by Flipper - 07-Jun-2009 at 10:48


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...


Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:59
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Dead


Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 11:35
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:



I looked up where each of the loci are common.
Again, these are the loci that iGENEA knew when they rated me "Germanic" instead of "Slavonic" (well, they knew 2 more loci, wich I cant get stats on)



Somewhere on IGENEA they wrote that they have not fully analyzed Slavonic yet, so that could be a reason.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 12:20
---

Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 14:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 13:05
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

I finaly checked some things.



these are loci from the second panel I got by an update to more markers.
They did not know these when they said "Germanic":



 
Maybe somewhat OT, but what computer program do you use when you make those maps?
Just curious, I want to start making maps too.
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