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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 21:49
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Turkic people stretch from China to Turkey and Ukraine. What makes them Turks? I will give you the following parts and try to put them in order of importance.

a) DNA
b) Language
c) Common historic memories
d) Culture

I would put them as: C, B, D, A

Try to tell an Azeri for example he is not a Turk because a DNA test says he's e.g mainly Caucasian.

 
Mate, Turkic people by no means can be considered as one nation/ethnos. There is nothing in common for example between Turks and Sakha people, apart from belonging to same language family.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 21:50
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


Thats not the order of importance.
its like this:
1. Culture
2. Common historic memories
3. Language

That make an "Ethnicy".

DNA has NOTHING to do with "ethnicy".


That's very correct. I'm sorry, I think i missunderstood you. I thought you considered DNA as an ethnic factor.


Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


And you forgot to tell me if YOU have ever done a DNA Testing and if you know your Y-DNA sequence. Wink

And if so if you can post a YSeach account name to compare it he he he



No i haven't. Have you? To be honest this thread and the minoan-anatolia thread are the only times i spend time talking about genetics here. If i will ever do it, i will try a some program offered by national study centers (like the Swedish one i told you) and not private companies.


Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


And yeah your right about the N in the iGENEA Statistik.
Someone in the german section iGENEA Forum asked about it 2 month ago and got no answere why the Haplogroup Statistik is so totaly wrong.

Also, the Indigenious people statistiks have changed dramatically over time.
Russia had 30% Celts in their statistik at begin of this year. Was meanwhile fixed down to 10%.

Turkey had 20% Celts by begin of the year and now is fixed to 0%.....

Spain had an 7% "Viking", wich was fixed to "7% unsure"

BTW how could you say the other map I posted is "Right"?
You had been the one who doubted that there are gentical tests about people from 2000 years ago and this map is suposed to show haplogroups of 2000 years ago. You should doubt the map. LOL


I didn't noticed the 2000 years halogroups. I just noticed that some areas were fine compared to data i've seen. I won't doubt the map about Scandinavia since, that's the area I was verifying. Smile What i said earlier was not that there are no genetic tests on halogroups 2000 years ago, but that you need to have access to corpses found on graves of that time, which is not that easy. In any case, where's that map from really?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 21:54
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Mate, Turkic people by no means can be considered as one nation/ethnos. There is nothing in common for example between Turks and Sakha people, apart from belonging to same language family.


You're correct Anton. However, it is a matter of opinion for some people. And i don't mean in a nationalistic way at all. It depends on who you ask actually.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 23:47
Dead

Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2009 at 13:51
Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

I just want to tell you one thing, Cyrus. I think you miss an important point here.

Firstly, there is no need to glorify your ancestry, because Iran has more ''glorious'' history than most countries. But then whether we consider just the real history or include your fantastical hypotheses as well, the truth is that it's completely indifferent. Look, I don't know you. So if you're a good father, a good husband, popular among your colleagues and friends, kindhearted etc. and if your ancestors, ALL your ancestors were slaves, dumb, stupid and whatever for all the history, even then, Cyrus, you're still the same good husband and father, the same kindhearted person. And contrariwise, if you're a horrible person, bad father, bad husband, everybody hates you etc., and if your ancestors ruled the world, were genius, superhuman etc., you'll still remain the same horrible father hated by everybody. Again, I don't know you, so I provided just two extremes, but I know one thing for sure: the fact that your ancestors were rulers of the world or whatever glorious history you consider has ABSOLUTELY NO influence on what kind of person you are. I am dissatisfied about many things about me, but I don't seek pseudohistoric theories glorifying Slovaks (and believe me, there are many!) to feel better, because I know that if I feel bad, this won't help. So I try to do something about the reasons why I feel bad. And as a Persian, I have no idea how you could be embarassed about your history (of course, there are always things to be embarassed about, but I think you get it).

And please don't take this as insult because it is not meant so, but it's clear that your agenda is Iranian nationalist, for the simple fact that you start threads about Iranians or Iran very often, and your hypotheses always include Iran or Iranians.

I don't know what you think about me, I am a researcher of the ancient Iranian history (pre-Achaemenid era), my current research is about the relations between Iranian and Germanic peoples, I don't want to to glorify any of them, but my aim is to discover the historical facts, maybe it is proved Iranians were a savage and uncivilized nation in this era, the important point is who they were and where they lived, for this purpose I have to compare them with other peoples to find possible connections, if I just wanted to glorify my ancestors then I would connect Iranians to the most civilized nations of the ancient world who lived in the same region in the Middle East (like Sumerians, Babylonians, Egyptians, ...), many Iranian ultra-nationalists try to do it and say Iran, as the cradle of civilization, has been always the motherland of Iranian peoples, but should I believe it too?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2009 at 17:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2009 at 18:24
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

2. Place names similar to Saksen
 

 

This is the fourth time you post this ridiculous map and you still haven't managed to remove the names that have no connection whatsoever with the Saxons (most of them, that is). Why do you still add the names already proven unconnected (eg the Latvian coffee shop Saksonija)?


Edited by Styrbiorn - 03-Jun-2009 at 18:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2009 at 18:48

And I have said it several times that please believe that Saxons didn't come from the sky and there could be some connections between them and other peoples of the world.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 08:34
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

And I have said it several times that please believe that Saxons didn't come from the sky and there could be some connections between them and other peoples of the world.



Aye, and that was explained. The Coffee shop named Saksonija is one example. You think that place was founded by Saxons also? 
Therein lies the biggest errors of your methods. You never check something up. Instead, you see something remotely similar to "Scythian" and *boom*-  immidiately you invent an origin of the place or thing without any background reading whatsoever. If you spent five minutes doing some reading you wouldn't make such embarrassing mistakes as claiming a German restaurant in Latvia to be an ancient Scythian settlement.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 04-Jun-2009 at 08:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 09:21
For those who don't know, I should mention when I posted that map in "Germanic, a subgroup of the Iranian languages" thread, one of our members named Roberts who lives in Lativa said:
 
Originally posted by Roberts Roberts wrote:

Lol, Cyrus, by that name Saksonija there is one road-by cafe named in Latvia on that map location. Nothing more. Certainly nothing to do with Saxons from Germany.
 
and when I said:
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

 
 
Some people who live in this café:
 
 
Do you know why these Latvians call it a city?
 
My name:  Nepraats 
Birthday:  1964-05-25 
Relation type:  Any
My country:  Latvia
My city:  Saksonija
 
He replied:
 
Quote Thats some wierd stuff. There is no city, town or village named after Saksonija in Latvia. By best luck it can be a single house named after that name in that place. You can check yourself by visiting this site -
http://www.vietas.lv/eng/index.php - and in upper right corner by using search box you can find any village, town or administrative unit in Latvia.
Those links above are random dating generators with random pictures and completely wrong place names.
 
and when I thanked for the link that he gave and showed the large and historical city of Saksoneja there: http://www.vietas.lv/eng/index.php?p=11&id=6127 he replied:
 
Originally posted by Roberts Roberts wrote:

So it's Saksoneja.
 
and then again said:
 
Quote Saksonija is not the same as Saksoneja. And I don't know the names of every village in Latvia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 11:22
Curys Shamiri: Have you analyzed the ethymology of all those names on your map? Have you also studied how old they are and what language they are in and in which context every name was created??

Edited by Carcharodon - 04-Jun-2009 at 11:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 11:59
I don't want to say that all those names certainly relate to Scythians but we know for sure that Scythians called their land Saksen, as Pliny, Strabo and other ancient historians and geographers have mentioned and we also know that Scythians lived in those regions, especially in Germany and Poland, a book which has been written by the greatest Iranologists of the world is The Cambridge History of Iran, by William Bayne Fisher, Ilya Gershevitch, Ehsan Yarshater, R. N. Frye, J. A. Boyle, Peter Jackson, Laurence Lockhart, Peter Avery, Gavin Hambly and Charles Melville, this book talks about the Scythian presence in these region and has provided several evidences, for example look at this page: The Cambridge History of Iran, page 192
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 12:23
Does the majority of historians and archaeologists in Poland, Germany and other nearby countries agree to the descriptions and interpretations about Scythian precense given in that book?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 12:42

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I don't want to say that all those names certainly relate to Scythians but we know for sure that Scythians called their land Saksen, as Pliny, Strabo and other ancient historians and geographers have mentioned

Well then, why have you used those place names?? 

Look, you say you are not nationalist, and you want to conduct serious research about the relation between Iranians and Germans, but then you have to reconsider your methodology. Because so far it fell under the definition of pseudohistory.

Since you haven't studied linguistics for instance, you should be very very very cautious about using names and words as evidence. What I can advise you is to read some linguistic books, especially those dealing with etymology and phonology. I have a few myself, so I can send it to you for your conveniece.

I agree with Carcharodon, you have to know etymologies of those names and the context in which these names were given to those places, e.g. Saxon Street certainly relates to Saxons, but the street was just named after them. It's just coincidence that the street actually is in London (is it?), where Saxons once dwelled. But it can easily be in Regio di Calabria, for instance. In my hometown we have plenty of streets like čínska, berlínska, madridská etc. This doesn't mean that there is any further relation between the cities/places.

Also you have been told that numerous places in your map do not relate to neither Saxons nor Sacae.

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 12:46
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Does the majority of historians and archaeologists in Poland, Germany and other nearby countries agree to the descriptions and interpretations about Scythian precense given in that book?
Of course, why do they want to deny it?! If you just search for "Archaeology" and Poland" then you will find this wesbite: http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/english.html (the website of Poznań Archaeological Museum), look at this page: http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/muzeum/muz_eng/wyst_wlkp/k_luzycka/index_kluzycka.html
 
The Bronze Age and The Dawn of The Iron Age
Hill-fort inhabitants and warlike Scythians
(c. 1400 - 400 BC)
 
For example it says:
 
 6. In the 19th century a hoard was found in Witaszkowo, Gubin District, which was dubbed The Scythian Gold Hoard. A replica of this hoard can be seen in this exhibition. It includes an akinakes dagger fitting [43], an upper fitting of the sword’s sheath [44], a fish-shaped fitting [45], a quatrefoil appliqué [46] which had probably belonged to a piece of armour or a shield, two necklaces [47], [48], a whetstone ferrule [49] and part of a pendant [50].
 
Gubin, Poland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gubin,_Poland (Prior to 1945, Gubin was part of Guben in Germany. In 1945 the Oder-Neisse line was chosen as the new German-Polish border at the Potsdam Conference.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 12:54
The precense of artifacts from a certain place or people found in another place doesn´t have to indicate the precense of that people. For example: here in Sweden we find several roman artefacts in tombs from the iron age, but still the Roman empire didn´t encompass Scandinavia. From the Viking age we find a Buddha (in Helgö) and Chinese coins in graves. That doesn´t indicate Indian or Chinese precense in Viking age Sweden.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 13:22
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

The precense of artifacts from a certain place or people found in another place doesn´t have to indicate the precense of that people. For example: here in Sweden we find several roman artefacts in tombs from the iron age, but still the Roman empire didn´t encompass Scandinavia. From the Viking age we find a Buddha (in Helgö) and Chinese coins in graves. That doesn´t indicate Indian or Chinese precense in Viking age Sweden.
 
If you don't want to deny it then you certainly know what "Warlike Scythians" means, the above picture shows "Fortresses destroyed by the Scythians", how could they destroy them if they were not present there?! Would you please yourself search about it? For example look at the website of Poland.com, as you read here: http://travel.poland.com/texts/en/t-ap-4-4.php it says they were destroyed by the Scythians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 14:58
The relations between Iranian and Celic peoples is also interesting, as I said in this thread: Did ancient Iranians have blue eyes and red hairs?, we know, according to the ancient Greek sources, ancient Iranian-speaking people (Aryans) usually had red hair, this is a good website about the red-hair: http://www.redheads.ie you can read here: http://www.redheads.ie/Origins-Red-Hair.htm
 
Quote
The Origins of Red Hair
 
Red hair is often assumed to have emerged with the Celts, but the gene for redheadedness existed long before the Celts came into being, at the start of the first millennium BC around the headwaters of the Rhine, the Rhone and the Danube. One theory is that red hair arrived in Europe with the Iranic-speaking steppe tribes who lived the areas north of and around the Black Sea from 4,000 years ago to the 6th century. Today, there is a surprising number of redheads in Afghanistan, Iran and the Urals, as well as in Azerbaijan and Georgia. It is possible that this "Iranic" ginger trait was transferred to other populations, including the Celts, whose original hair color was various shades of brown and black in general.
 
Today I read something interesting which relates to it from a newspaper:
 
 
 
Irish step dancing

The show "Celts!" traces the history of the Celtic culture and its peoples from its start in ancient times in Persia, crossing Eastern and Western Europe into modern-day Britain and Ireland. Dancers portray characters from traveling people to woman warriors. "Celts!" will be performed at 2 p.m. Sa...


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 04-Jun-2009 at 15:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 15:47
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

If you don't want to deny it then you certainly know what "Warlike Scythians" means, the above picture shows "Fortresses destroyed by the Scythians", how could they destroy them if they were not present there?! Would you please yourself search about it? For example look at the website of Poland.com, as you read here: http://travel.poland.com/texts/en/t-ap-4-4.php it says they were destroyed by the Scythians.
 
Just because a travel site on the internet says it was like that it doen´t mean it really was so. Archeological evidence can many times be interpreted in many ways, so one shall be careful before making statements.
 
So it should really be interesting to know if there is any concensus among Polish and German historians and archaeologists about the Scythian presence.
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 05-Jun-2009 at 02:02
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:00
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