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Slayertplsko View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 19:29
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

btw Tacitus claims the East Germanic tribes (gthe Bastarnii for example) have the ugly faces of the Sarmatians and he guesses they mixed.
He still claims them Germanic however.
So in fact they were bastard not bastarn! Wink It is good that you read this 70 pages thread: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637 about Germanic, a subgroup of the Iranian languages!

I was waiting for that to come. Yes, it's really good that you read it.LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 19:48
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 19:59
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

Thats 70 pages in a language that is not my native.
Thats torture. Wink

Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

I thought Persian and Germanic are both subgroups of the "Indo-European" (formerly known as "Indo-Germanic" as in the 19th century it was widely believed one important part of the Gemanic tribes came from India and mixed with the natives of Scandinavia. This idea is not dead yet but came back to live by observation of the R1a distribution. And these "Indians" had been thought the battle axe people in 19th century theories....). In German this term is still in use)  languages? ;)

Yes, that's right. But our Cyrus came with a brand new theory, without ever bothering to read some linguistic theory...that's why gets the results he gets.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 20:16
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:



A suposed map of the haplogroups in Europe, 2000 years ago.



At last! That last map you posted has the N-haplogroup of the Finns that Igenea totaly missed.

Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:


But our Cyrus came with a brand new theory, without ever bothering to read some linguistic theory...


I haven't read that thread completely cause i noticed it too late. What happened there really? Did Cyrus upset so many people? LOL




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 20:29
And whats YOUR haplogroup? ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 20:43
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 21:39
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

A more reliable source is the article "The Science and Business of Genetic Ancestry Testing" (Science 19 October 2007: Vol. 318. no. 5849, pp. 399 - 400 DOI: 10.1126/science.1150098). The 2 most important premises in the article are:

1. The tests track only a very SMALL portion of your DNA (less than 1 percent of a person's genome!)
2. The tests cannot determine ethnic identity.

The most important flaw on the part of iGENEA would be that their methodology has not been published in any peer reviewed journal.
This alone may be proof enough that what they're doing has no real scientific value.

Source(s):


 



Actually 1% of human genome is quite a lot. You don't need to sequence the whole stuff as soon as you sequence highly variable pieces.  BTW look at authors affiliations Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 21:51
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 22:24
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 05:45
Again to the case of that goverments have their peoples DNA.

To check a total genom of a human takes a lot of work and would cost tons of money.
Its impossibe that its done for every human.

To identify a criminal you only test a few things in the DNA and that is NOT identical with the parts that one tests for finding anchestors.

In other words: Geneticans can prove that someone did the crime without beeing able to tell his haplogroup. Because a totaly different part of the DNA is needed to be tested.

It would be totaly useless to test the Y-DNA because this would be identical with all the anchestors of this man and with his brothers, uncles etc.
Police does not want DNA that is all the same in this family since the stone age. It wants DNA that is unique with one man.


Edited by Barbapapa - 02-Jun-2009 at 05:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 13:29
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

Thats 70 pages in a language that is not my native.
Thats torture. Wink

Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
I thought Persian and Germanic are both subgroups of the "Indo-European" (formerly known as "Indo-Germanic" as in the 19th century it was widely believed one important part of the Gemanic tribes came from India and mixed with the natives of Scandinavia. This idea is not dead yet but came back to live by observation of the R1a distribution. And these "Indians" had been thought the battle axe people in 19th century theories....). In German this term is still in use)  languages? ;)
It doesn't change the fact that Iranian (Persian is just an Iranian language) and Germanic are both subgroups of the Indo-European languages, the important point is that they are in parallel of each other or in serial. I think R1a just relates to Scythians from Sakistan (modern Sistan in eastern Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan & ancient Indo-Scythia) to Saksin (Eastern Europe -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqsin) and Sachsen/Saxon in Germany.
 
Map of ancient Indo-Scythia:


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Jun-2009 at 13:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 16:00
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 16:35

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

(modern Sistan in eastern Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan & ancient Indo-Scythia) to Saksin (Eastern Europe -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqsin)

Please, do notice that your own source claims a different etymology for Saqsin, from Turkic.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 17:06
You can hardly find any Germanic tribe without almost the exact name of an ancient Iranian tribe, I don't talk about just name similiarities, even the name of "Germani", as you probably know, according to the ancient Greek sources, was the name of one of the major Iranian tribes, for example you can read here that Herodotus mentions Germani as a Persian tribe, you can compare other ones yourself, another example can be the Germanic tribe of Semnoni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnoni I'm myself a Semnoni, the name of this ancient Iranian tribe in Persian language is Semnani: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnani in fact Semnan is one of the largest provinces of Iran.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 19:38

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

You can hardly find any Germanic tribe without almost the exact name of an ancient Iranian tribe, I don't talk about just name similiarities, even the name of "Germani", as you probably know, according to the ancient Greek sources, was the name of one of the major Iranian tribes, for example you can read here that Herodotus mentions Germani as a Persian tribe, you can compare other ones yourself, another example can be the Germanic tribe of Semnoni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnoni I'm myself a Semnoni, the name of this ancient Iranian tribe in Persian language is Semnani: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnani in fact Semnan is one of the largest provinces of Iran.

We've been through this many times. You're losing your originality, try to come up with something new and funnier.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 20:00

I just want to tell you one thing, Cyrus. I think you miss an important point here.

Firstly, there is no need to glorify your ancestry, because Iran has more ''glorious'' history than most countries. But then whether we consider just the real history or include your fantastical hypotheses as well, the truth is that it's completely indifferent. Look, I don't know you. So if you're a good father, a good husband, popular among your colleagues and friends, kindhearted etc. and if your ancestors, ALL your ancestors were slaves, dumb, stupid and whatever for all the history, even then, Cyrus, you're still the same good husband and father, the same kindhearted person. And contrariwise, if you're a horrible person, bad father, bad husband, everybody hates you etc., and if your ancestors ruled the world, were genius, superhuman etc., you'll still remain the same horrible father hated by everybody. Again, I don't know you, so I provided just two extremes, but I know one thing for sure: the fact that your ancestors were rulers of the world or whatever glorious history you consider has ABSOLUTELY NO influence on what kind of person you are. I am dissatisfied about many things about me, but I don't seek pseudohistoric theories glorifying Slovaks (and believe me, there are many!) to feel better, because I know that if I feel bad, this won't help. So I try to do something about the reasons why I feel bad. And as a Persian, I have no idea how you could be embarassed about your history (of course, there are always things to be embarassed about, but I think you get it).

And please don't take this as insult because it is not meant so, but it's clear that your agenda is Iranian nationalist, for the simple fact that you start threads about Iranians or Iran very often, and your hypotheses always include Iran or Iranians.

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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 20:17
I will first start from a critical error you've done...

Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


2. The tests cannot determine ethnic identity
Of course they can.
Because the tests can tell how long ago 2 people must have shared a common anchestor.


No they can't and you will find that out yourself. There are more important factors that determine ethnic identity. No nation is pure, not even from humanities early historic years.  I will give you one simple example.

Turkic people stretch from China to Turkey and Ukraine. What makes them Turks? I will give you the following parts and try to put them in order of importance.

a) DNA
b) Language
c) Common historic memories
d) Culture

I would put them as: C, B, D, A

Try to tell an Azeri for example he is not a Turk because a DNA test says he's e.g mainly Caucasian.

Now i'm gonna use this nice map you posted and show you that it has actually better data that what you originally posted.

Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:






So, I will pick the results of Igenea for Finland, which is at least to say laughable.

http://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=49&id=15

Y-haplogroups in Finland


I   73 %
R1A   19 %
R1B   8 %


Below I will list published results from research that has been done so far.

Haplogroup-I:  40% according, unlike 73% that Igenea gives.
Haplogroup-R1A
: 8% in Sami populations only, which makes it insignificant to a total % of the Finnish population. Igenea gives 19%.
Haplogroup-R1B: 3.9% restricted only to Sami populations, while Igenea gives a total of 8% amongst Suomalaiset.

Now, the tragic part...Igenea has totaly missed the N-Haplogroup which in Europe appears amongst Finns, Swedes and Lithuanians. Otherwise it appears amongst Uralic-speaking (e.g Sami Language) people in Asia. In Finland this haplogroup is at 60% of the population.





So, the last map you posted is accurate for Finland i would say, while the data from the table above are at least said catastrophic.

If i take my time to examine more the results i'm pretty sure i will find similar mistakes. Don't take it personally, no offence to you, my point is that you should be very carefull when it comes to commercial interests. Just compare and make your judgement. There are tons of publications out there to read and compare.

I will send a letter to Karolinska institutet and ask them to which organizations samples are given to. I'm interested how they would react when they see terms like "Vikinger".




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbapapa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 20:34
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:08
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:01
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