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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 12:43

Quote Goth from Mesopotamia 1000 BC?

Not actually Mesopotamia but western Iran, more exactly Luristan where Kassites lived, the ancient name, according to this article: THE KASSITE CONQUEST OF BABYLONIA was the land of the Kassites, the Guti, Padan, and Alman.

Quote I mean, the Goth that we know belong mainly to R1a, wich led to the conclusion that they are NOT from Sweden, as they claim but from Poland.

Why R1a?! You know that Haplogroup R1a: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA) has the highest frequencies among Indo-Iranian peoples (North Indians 48%-72%, Tajik/Khojant 64%, ...), it can be true about Poles and other Eastern European peoples because of their Iranian ancestors like Sarmatians, Scythians, Iazyges, ... but why Germanic Goths?! Shouldn't it be Haplogroup I which has the highest frequencies in Scandinavia, the region in the northwest of Black sea and the Western Iran?



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 01-Jun-2009 at 15:40
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:11
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 16:50
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:



Well, there is only a handfull of Norse and Swedes that ever made a DNA Test.

It simply could happen that not enough Sami from Sweden or Norway made a test to be significant. Wink

But for the missing Sami in Noway and Sweden: I would simply say.... not enough of them did a DNA Test yet. ;)



But that's not the way it works. It doesn't matter how many make the test...

If the results are based on how many people take the test then it cannot be accurate.

Most western countries have a DNA-bank of their citizens. That's where material is taken for research and comparison, not by the testers themselves. Has Igenea in this case contacted for example the Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish authorities to get a sample bank + samples from relics of dead people that have been found in ancient graves?

I'm pretty sure i had some great great great great sami ancestors (Like probably most Swedish people) and i say this cause my swedish family has a tree from 1516AD onwards. In that case as you mention, if i took the test then no sami ancestry would be found in me. If amongst 1000 people in Sweden not a single "sami marker" is found then something is terribly wrong. If for the same amount only 8% is found in Finland, then something is terribly wrong again.

Now, while browsing the site, something that struck me is that there's no Hallogroup N in Finland nor a LLY22 nor a U (or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_(mtDNA)) nor a K!!! Those are groups i have seen to appear in Finland in all other genetic reports. How come they are completely absent?

http://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=49&id=15

When it comes to Sweden (http://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=49&id=47) the Hallogroups I1A (m253), K and U are completely absent!!!

Now, have a look on this comment as well: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090524093928AALHMso

Quote
I'm afraid iGENEA doesn't make any sense.
It's been said that they use ambiguous suppositions and unclear labels to obtain (misleading) statistical inferences. Moreover it's been rumoured that they are merely selling ancestry information, of whichever origin the buyer is ready to pay for. If we already know that humans have 99% similar DNA, and that iGENEA research has a large margin of error, up to 15%, according to some genomic experts, then what is really verifiable in their studies?
When we consider that genetic tests cannot determine ethnic identity, the results become even more misleading.

A more reliable source is the article "The Science and Business of Genetic Ancestry Testing" (Science 19 October 2007: Vol. 318. no. 5849, pp. 399 - 400 DOI: 10.1126/science.1150098). The 2 most important premises in the article are:

1. The tests track only a very SMALL portion of your DNA (less than 1 percent of a person's genome!)
2. The tests cannot determine ethnic identity.

The most important flaw on the part of iGENEA would be that their methodology has not been published in any peer reviewed journal.
This alone may be proof enough that what they're doing has no real scientific value.

Source(s):








Edited by Flipper - 01-Jun-2009 at 16:55


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 17:17
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

No.
Its like this...
Thousands of years ago, the I1a guys lived in Scandinavia.
then arrived the R1a "battleaxe people" from Russia and conquered them.
the R1a guys had metal weapons, the native I1a guys had not.
The R1a guys remained a minority but they ruled and so they forced the language on the natives (proto Balto-Slavic-Germanic possiby)
 
The people of the battle axe culture had no metal weapons (at least not in Scandinavia), it was a stone age culture and the battle axes that gave the culture it´s name are of stone.
 
There is no sign of an invasion in the archaeological record, just a shift in culture among the earlier neolithic funnel beaker culture (there was influence from abroad but no actual invasion).

Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


Its believed that the Norse mythology reflects this with the war between Asir and Vanir.
the Asir beeing the gods of the R1a invador and the Vanir beeing the gods of the I1a natives.
 
The Norse mythology is of so recent date that it is absolutely impossible to connect it with the Stone age several thousand years earlier!
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:12
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 17:50
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

Shut the f**k up. ;)
Recall the flooding of the black sea that is believed to be the origin of the biblical flooding myth. Wink
 
The sources to the Norse mythology are mostly Nordic runstones and medieval Icelandic manuscriptis that are between 3300 and 4000 years younger than the beginning of the Battle axe period.  There is no possibility to connect these young sources with the stone age. All such claims are pure nonsense.
 
There is no evidence that the inundation of the Black Sea gave rise to the old tales of the flood. Many experts would rather refer such tales to inundations in the Eufrat and Tigris rivers.
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 17:53
Barbapapa (Barbarossa), according to almost all ancient sources, the people who lived in ancient Poland were neither Slavs nor Germanic but Iranians, mostly Sarmatians and Scythians, archaeological findings like the golden Scythian treasure which was discovered on the Poland-Germany border, also confirm this fact, you can read more about it here: Bronze- and Iron-Age Poland, the fact is that people of Poland themselves also believe this thing, you probably know about Sarmatism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatism
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 17:55
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

Doesnt change the fact that R1a did arrive in Scandinavia 5000 years ago.
Ok say for unknown reasons by unknown people. And it randomly happend during the battle axe period. ok? ;)
 
Hmmm... as long as I don´t have seen the data and the methods presented in a reliable peer reviewed journal I will have my doubts.
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:13
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 17:59
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


The goverment of Sweden does not know the DNA of their people.
If so, then they did a crime, because they are not allowed to make a DNA test of them without their knowledge and if they do they must destroy the results afterwards. Tongue


I suggest you don't make such fast conclusions on countries that you're not a citizen, nor know how the law system works.

I lived in Solna where the Karolinska institutet is situated. My mother worked in that hospital Big smile. There you have the PKU-laboratoriet where blood drops are taken from infants when they are born according to the SFS 2002:297 law. Only if the parents make a denial application the newborn person is not registered. If you're born after 1975 then you can as an adult make an application in order to be removed from the bio-bank. The samples are stored in the Biobanken and can be used for various purposes such as research and criminology.

You still didn't answer how basic haplogroups found on other researches are completely absent...

So you suggest that if i mail for example several european universities they can verify what Igenea claims to have collected? Shall I send a mail to Karolinska instituted and ask them if they ever got an application for access to samples?


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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 18:15
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

Wich is your right.
I also have my doubts about this.
But I am open to the possibility, unlike you. ;)
 
As i said, if they publish their results in reliable peer reviewed journals, presenting the exact base of their research and what material they had access to (for example what skeletal material of ancient people) then it is much easier to evaluate their results.


Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:


In 2000 it was already estaminated that the Germans didnt genocide the Celts of Germany but converted them and that the Germanics are a minority in Germany.
 
Converted them to what?
 
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Edited by Barbapapa - 08-Jun-2009 at 15:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 18:49
Originally posted by Barbapapa Barbapapa wrote:

btw Tacitus claims the East Germanic tribes (gthe Bastarnii for example) have the ugly faces of the Sarmatians and he guesses they mixed.
He still claims them Germanic however.
So in fact they were bastard not bastarn! Wink It is good that you read this 70 pages thread: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637 about Germanic, a subgroup of the Iranian languages!
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