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Forum LockedAmerindians and Inuits in Europe, before Columbus

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 00:59
Tiny problem with your conclusion: for most of the period, Indies ≠ West, a fair numbers of Europeans had been to India before 1492, they knew that India was East. Other issue, why would these contacts stop after 1492? How many Inuits arrived on the Western shores in the 16th and 17th century?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 01:49
Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:

Tiny problem with your conclusion: for most of the period, Indies ≠ West, a fair numbers of Europeans had been to India before 1492, they knew that India was East. Other issue, why would these contacts stop after 1492? How many Inuits arrived on the Western shores in the 16th and 17th century?
 
In fact, many arrived in that period.
 
Besides, educated Europeans already knew that the world was round, so India was at once to the east and to the west.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 02:15

FIRST EVIDENCE:

In here I will start to put evidence of people from the Americas arriving to Europe. It is not that I believe they are definitive at all. It is just that they are so irresistible real that I wonder why people that loves mysteries isn't more interested in this stuff.
 
The first record that is in the topic was writen by Spanish Roman Pomponius Mela in 44 A.D.
 
 
Quote:
 
"Cornelious Nepos, a more recent and therefore more authoritative author, add the testimony of Quintus Metellus Celeron on this point and says that he gave the following account. When he was Governor of Gaul, some Indians were given to him by the king of Boii. On asking where they had come from to these lands (theirs present whereabouts), he learned that they had been driven from the Indian seas by violent stoms... and finally come ashore in Germany"
 
Mela, Works 77.
 
Cladius Plinii (Plyny) also speaks about Nepo's writings.
 
"The same Nepos relates the following with regards to the northern passage: Indians were given as a gift to Quintus Metellus Celer by the king of Suevi. The Indians have been sailing from India on a trading mission but had been carried off to Germany by storms"
 
Pliny, Natural History1:304-305.
 
If the testimony are veridical then, how on earth people from India, doing commerce in the Indian ocean (of course) ended in a beach in Germany! Isn't it obvious that any allien arriving to Europe had to come from the Atlantic? And didn't you know that the only people that sailed (knew the sail) and carried commerce in the Atlantic, besides European and Mediterranean peoples (that Romans knew) were the Amerindians of the Caribbean and North America.
 
First shock.
Confused
 
More to come LOL
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 03:43
I'd be interested to see what Latin terms were used to describe these "Indians." I find these sources not very factual. It is possible that the "Indians" were actually from India and shipwrecked somewhere near Arabia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 03:46

Those Indians shipwrecked in Germany. I really can't figure it out how a ship of India ended in Germany!

Those passages are easy to find. Look for Pliny, which is the easiest.
 
The Latin terms are the following, anyways. For Mela's and Pliny's in both cases the word used is "Indos" for the people and "Indicis" for the country. The place of landing is called "Germaniam".
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 15-Apr-2008 at 03:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 04:56
It's possible that they could have been blown around the coast of Africa from the Indian Ocean. This theory is just as plausible as Native Americans coming across the Atlantic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 05:22
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

It's possible that they could have been blown around the coast of Africa from the Indian Ocean. This theory is just as plausible as Native Americans coming across the Atlantic.
 
Oh sure, yes sir.
 
They were crossing the coast of Sri Lanka and then a huge storm brought them all the way down to Cape of Good Hope, made them to turn north, evaded Western Africa, Missed Iberia and England, turned right and landed in Germany LOL...
 
Sorry, but in this case I believe the hypothesis of someone from the Americas comming is a lot simpler.


Edited by pinguin - 15-Apr-2008 at 05:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 11:17
They could not have been Indians. Wikipedia says:
Quote It is unclear whether these castaways may have been people from India or Eastern Asia, or possibly American Indians. Edward Herbert Bunbury suggested that they were Finns. This account is open to some question, since Metellus Celer died just after his consulship, before he ever got to Gaul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 16:59
The clearest problem of these quotation is the following: Romans knew India well enough not to mistake a bunch of hunter gatherers with the mighty societies of the subcontinent.

Besides, their tendency to arrive in Germany and nowhere else is somewhat suspect. After all the Gulf Stream would have made at least some touch Britannia first (i.e. Roman territory).

Other issue: "Germany" is quite vague a location. It could mean anything from the Alps to Scandinavia. In particular, the Boii where from somewhere between the Po river and the Carpats, and the Suebi where spread from modern Czech Republic to the Baltic, so it is highly unlikely for either of them to collect anybody from the Northern Sea.

Final problem: it is unclear whether the Inuits and other Eskimos had even reached the East of Canada at that time. In my opinion, Siberians, Mongols or plain Indians from India are more likely.

Then again: why not. One occurrence in 700 years is hardly a statistical impossibility. So it is plausible, but the various issues listed above make considering them as Americans as an act of faith rather than a decision based on evidence, since --as you know-- Roman and Greek writers where never short of an unbelievable story that now are used to build hypothesis such as the Atlantis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 17:42
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

They could not have been Indians. Wikipedia says:
[quote]It is unclear whether these castaways may have been people from India or Eastern Asia, or possibly American Indians. Edward Herbert Bunbury suggested that they were Finns. ...
 
Strange. I would be very surprise if the Finns where so exotic for Germans to confusse them with Indians LOL. After all, if Greeks knew Persians, and Chinese Koreans, and Germans were quite close to Finns Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 18:01
Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:

The clearest problem of these quotation is the following: Romans knew India well enough not to mistake a bunch of hunter gatherers with the mighty societies of the subcontinent.
 
"Bunch of hunter gatherers?" Jesus! You need an urgent introduction to the archeology of the Americas. I am afraid you have no idea about it. Besides, poor indian sailors didn't look like the personel of the Royal Navy at all LOL

Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:


Besides, their tendency to arrive in Germany and nowhere else is somewhat suspect. After all the Gulf Stream would have made at least some touch Britannia first (i.e. Roman territory).

Not out of the possible.

Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:


Final problem: it is unclear whether the Inuits and other Eskimos had even reached the East of Canada at that time. In my opinion, Siberians, Mongols or plain Indians from India are more likely.

It may be, but Siberians, Mongols and plain Indians would have come by feet.
Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:


Then again: why not. One occurrence in 700 years is hardly a statistical impossibility. So it is plausible, but the various issues listed above make considering them as Americans as an act of faith rather than a decision based on evidence, since --as you know-- Roman and Greek writers where never short of an unbelievable story that now are used to build hypothesis such as the Atlantis.
 
Of course. I believe that IF (A BIG "IF") the event really happened, the more likely is they were people from the Americas. But that's given the event really happened, of course.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 19:24
You are right Pinguin Inuits were not hunter gatherers, they never gathered, they just hunt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 02:55
Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:

You are right Pinguin Inuits were not hunter gatherers, they never gathered, they just hunt.
 
In fact, Inuits are a people that I admire very much. They worked with iron and invented the composite arpoon. Besides, theirs yakaks are the best small boats ever invented. Not a small achievement for such a bunch of savages LOL


Edited by pinguin - 16-Apr-2008 at 02:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 03:16
Second evidence:
 
It is amazing how skeptical people get with the idea that Ancient Americans reached Europe. Sometimes the people that reacts with disbelief are the same that embrace enthusiastically the idea that Phoenicians, Romans, Greeks, Africans, Chinese, East Indians or whatever, reached the Americas before Columbus.
 
What's the idea? To show Amerindians are subhumans and needed teachears? To show that "The Old World rules?" I wonder.
 
In any case, let's continue with the game. Here is the second evidence of Americans reaching Europe before Columbus. Put your seat belts on LOL
 
Aeneas Sylvious, after citing the event described by Pliny wrote about another event that happened during the 12th century. He talks about an "Otto" (probably Otto of Freising) and says that during the reign of one of the Germans Emperators, a
 
"boat and Indian traders were caught on the German coast, to which place, from unwelcomee contrary wind from the east blowing constantly, they arrived accidentally"
 
The event happened circa 1160s and is supposed to happend in the West Baltic or in the Frisland region between Denmark and Netherlands. 
 
 
Aeneas Sylvius, History Rerum.
 
By the way, Toscanelli and Columbus read the book of Aeneas Sylvious, particularly that quote I cite above....
 
It will continue.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 16-Apr-2008 at 03:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 03:32
First of all nobody would call Indians, Indians before Columbus.

The natives are called Indians cause the guy was sailing to India and America closed his way.


And the reason people embrace Phoenicians, Greeks, Chinese etc is because those people had civilisations above the hunter-gatherer and actually explored on purpose to find new markets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 03:37
Third Evidence:
 
Antonio Galvano, Portuguese carthographer, wrote in 1555 the following:
 
"In the year 1153, in the time of Frederich Barbarosa it is written that there come to Lubec ... one canoe with certain Indians, like unto a long barge: which seemed to come from the coast of Baccalaos (Newfoundland region)... The Germans greatly wondered to see such a barge and such a people, not knowing from wence they came, not understanding their speech, especially because there was no knowledge of that country.
 
Galvano, Discoveries. 18.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 03:44
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

First of all nobody would call Indians, Indians before Columbus.
 
If you see an allien comming from the West, and you know that India is what followed the Atlantic beyond Hyperborea, then you will call Indians to these people.
 
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

The natives are called Indians cause the guy was sailing to India and America closed his way.
 
Columbus read the accounts of Pliny et al. In every account of contacts with alliens reaching Europe they are called Indians (Indos)
 
Guess what name came to Columbus mind when he saw Amerindians for the first time LOL
Columbus didn't invented the name. He, like every one else before him, believed those lands West of the Atlantic were India!
 
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:


And the reason people embrace Phoenicians, Greeks, Chinese etc is because those people had civilisations above the hunter-gatherer and actually explored on purpose to find new markets.
 
Really? Well, Mayans also have large canoes able to carry 60 people throught the Caribbean. You never though that perphaps some of those canoes were sent to Europe by a storm? After all that's what Europeans say in theirs accounts. And Mayans had not much to envy to other classical civilizations.
 
Anyways, there is still some people that believe Egyptians or Phoenicians were better sailors than Polynesians LOL. Anyways.
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 16-Apr-2008 at 03:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 03:53
Quote If you see an allien comming from the West, and you know that India is what followed the Atlantic beyond Hyperborea, then you will call Indians to these people.


Actually most people thought it was flat. Columbus proved it (actually Maggelan but..)

Quote
Columbus read the accounts of Pliny et al. In every account of contacts with alliens reaching Europe they are called Indians (Indos)
 
Guess what name came to Columbus mind when he saw Amerindians for the first time LOL
Columbus didn't invented the name. He, like every one else before him, believed those lands West of the Atlantic were India!



What did I say? He named them Indians cause he thought the Caribean was some islands in India. Nobody before him would name Amerindians Indians cause nobody tried to find India in the West.

Quote
Really? Well, Mayans also have large canoes able to carry 60 people throught the Caribbean. You never though that perphaps some of those canoes were sent to Europe by a storm? After all that's what Europeans say.
 
The arrogancy of European and Asiatic historians is amazing. Always thinking in people of first, second and third class. I bet we haven't learn anything from the dissaster of WWII, the war were all arrogancy exploded in six years. Sad Cry


First of all, not many scientists believe that Phoenicians or Greeks actually arrived in Americas. Only the Norse.
Second, a Phoenician merchant ship is known to be able to travel all the way to England and around Africa. That's A LOT of miles. I don't doubt Mayans had big canoes but a storm so big that would actually bring them across the Atlantic would have sunk the canoe first.

Indians, like all people until middle ages, traveled across the shores and didn't enter open seas unless they had to. The chances are too small for an Indian to reach Europe. An inuit reaching Iceland perhaps. But not the mainland





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 04:11
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

...Actually most people thought it was flat. Columbus proved it (actually Maggelan but..)
 
That isn't true. You could recall that by orders of the Queen, Columbus had an argument with carthographers and other experts at the University of Salamanca about the distance from Europe to India. When they discussed Toscanelli calculations, I can assure you nobody believed earth was flat. Only the ignorant sailors had such supersticions.
 
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

...
What did I say? He named them Indians cause he thought the Caribean was some islands in India. Nobody before him would name Amerindians Indians cause nobody tried to find India in the West.
 
Fellow, those people were comming from the West to Europe, therefore from India.
 
 
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

...
First of all, not many scientists believe that Phoenicians or Greeks actually arrived in Americas. Only the Norse.

That's true. Cosign
 
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

...
Second, a Phoenician merchant ship is known to be able to travel all the way to England and around Africa. That's A LOT of miles.
 
Yes, but always following coastal lines. In fact, when phoenicians sourrounded Africa for the egyptian ruler, they sailed only during the days.
 
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

...
I don't doubt Mayans had big canoes but a storm so big that would actually bring them across the Atlantic would have sunk the canoe first.
 
Just imagine a canoe the size of Norse ship. In fact, you can still find in Mesoamerica the ports Mayas had from where theirs canoes traded all over the gulf of Mexico. There are accounts of encounters of these large canoes by Spaniards as well.
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

...
Indians, like all people until middle ages, traveled across the shores and didn't enter open seas unless they had to. The chances are too small for an Indian to reach Europe. An inuit reaching Iceland perhaps. But not the mainland
 
Actually, that's true from the Colombian sailors that made the trade route between Peru and Central America in balsa rafts (that carrier 30 tons!). But that isn't true for the traders of the Caribbean.
 
Don't you know those people went from Venezuela to every Island in the Caribbean, and from there to Florida and also Mexico? 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 16-Apr-2008 at 04:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 06:02
Pinguin why don't you accept that the Caribbean hypothesis is the least likely considering that had they followed the Gulf Stream --only viable explanation of why they always show up in Germany-- they would have been able to reach the North American shores before drifting to Europe.

There are two main issues so far:
1. No first hand account. How come a guy knew Indians came around 4 centuries before but Barbarossa's annalists themselves never mention it.
2. There is a clear echo. Why would the same Indian traders show up at the same place in the same condition and not (as it is more likely) in Ireland, Iceland, Brittany, Britain or Scandinavia? I smells a lot like a guy mixed up Cesar and Frederic Barbarossa.
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