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Forum LockedAmerindians and Inuits in Europe, before Columbus

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 20:37
Pinguin, it should not be about the chance, but about a hypothesis and some evidence for it. You staged this thread in such a way that everyone expected persuasive evidences and arguments and yet, we have ended up in discussing about a chance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 20:50
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

Pinguin, it should not be about the chance, but about a hypothesis and some evidence for it. You staged this thread in such a way that everyone expected persuasive evidences and arguments and yet, we have ended up in discussing about a chance.
 
Well, I can't help but using the tricks I apply in writing articles and tales in everything I post LOL. Yes, I used certain tricks to call the attention, but you can't accusse me of making false claims.
 
I never said the landings were certified fully. I just said there was some evidence of them, nothing else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 21:52
 
Childs toy Elephant,  found in an Olmec tomb.  Ca 3500 bce
 
 
 
 
 
Don't accuse me of that. I accept Inuits, Norse and perhaps Polynesians landed in the Americas in the last 2000 years.
 
I guess it must have been the vikings who knew about Elephants then.  It's funny, Northman never mentioned there are Elephants in Denmark.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 23-Apr-2008 at 21:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 21:58
Originally posted by red clay red clay wrote:

 
Childs toy Elephant,  found in an Olmec tomb.  Ca 3500 bce
 
I guess it must have been the vikings who knew about Elephants then.  It's funny, Northman never mentioned there are Elephants in Denmark.
 
Artistic creations, and out of context objects, aren't usually a valid proof. With this object I can prove you ancient Peruvians drilled for oil, and had advanced machinery LOL
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 22:11
Originally posted by red clay red clay wrote:

 
Childs toy Elephant,  found in an Olmec tomb.  Ca 3500 bce

That could just as well be an anteater.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 22:25
Or a mouse
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 22:28
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by red clay red clay wrote:

 
Childs toy Elephant,  found in an Olmec tomb.  Ca 3500 bce
 
I guess it must have been the vikings who knew about Elephants then.  It's funny, Northman never mentioned there are Elephants in Denmark.
 
Artistic creations, and out of context objects, aren't usually a valid proof. With this object I can prove you ancient Peruvians drilled for oil, and had advanced machinery LOL
 
 
 
No, all you can prove with that is they knew how to make metal mace heads.
 
 
 
 
 
Mix-  When was the last time you saw either anteater or elephant?
 
 
                                
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 22:34
The childs toy could be something other than an elephant,  however I am just repeating what the Mexican Archeologists who found it wrote in the reports.  It's also the only animal whose features fit proportionately.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 22:39

Could you imagine how much work Aztecs had saved if they had elephants?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 23:51
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Originally posted by King John King John wrote:



I was wondering, according to those maps showing the ocean currents, isn't it even easier to accidentally reach the Americas from Africa than from the Americas to North Europe? Perhaps there were some people from Africa who had accidental landings in the Americas too.

Edited by omshanti - 23-Apr-2008 at 23:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 00:26
Originally posted by omshanti omshanti wrote:


I was wondering, according to those maps showing the ocean currents, isn't it even easier to accidentally reach the Americas from Africa than from the Americas to North Europe? Perhaps there were some people from Africa who had accidental landings in the Americas too.
 
Yes, it is possible. There are some details, though. First, the trip in the direction East to West is a lot longer than the other way around.
The projection produces the ilusion that the distances close to the pole are the same than in the tropics, and that's not true. At the north the currents are faster and distances are shorter than at the tropics.
 
Now, for people that could have accidentally survived such a journey, they could have been Phoenicians, Carthagians, Greeks or Romans that have good enough ships to stand the journey. Muslims during the middle ages, from Cordoba or Timbuctu, also have good enough ships.
 
I doubt that anyone from south saharan africa had ever been carried to the Americas. 
Cape Verde was uninhabited when the Portuguese arrived in 1460 and made the islands part of the Portuguese empire. Besides, the sail was unknown in western south saharan africa in pre-muslim times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 01:32
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

...well, we could say the same about you for reverse contact claims

 

Don't accuse me of that. I accept Inuits, Norse and perhaps Polynesians landed in the Americas in the last 2000 years.

 

I don't accept that the tribes of Israel teached the lamanites, nor that Tihuanaco was the Atlantis, or that the Nubians teached writing to Olmecs LOL

 

Besides, I am just talking about accidental landings in Europe, that it seem happened.

 

(By the way, it is a lot more difficult to go from Europe to Americas than the other way around, because the distributions of the sea currents.)


How is your claim that Amerindians and/or Inuits made contact (accidentally or not) different than claiming that Israelites came over or that any other group came over from the Old World prior to Columbus? These claims are just as absurd as yours. Distance is irrelevant if we are talking about dead bodies washing up it's possible that bodies from Africa floated to the coasts of the Americas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 02:44
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

....
How is your claim
 
Is not my claim. I never said it did happen. I am just posting certain evidence that that event may had happened. 
 
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

....
that Amerindians and/or Inuits made contact (accidentally or not) different than claiming that Israelites came over or that any other group came over from the Old World prior to Columbus?
 
The journey is shorter; the evidence of landing exists.
 
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

....
These claims are just as absurd as yours.
 
Blame Pliny, Columbus and other for the idea, not me LOL
In any case, I haven't heared that anyone of certain importance ever wrote about the Lamanites, except by John Smith Wink
 
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

....
Distance is irrelevant if we are talking about dead bodies washing up it's possible that bodies from Africa floated to the coasts of the Americas.
 
That's true. However, in the case of Americans in Europe, it seems there are cases were the poor lost sailors landed alive in Europe.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 24-Apr-2008 at 02:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 08:27
Pinguin, any event may had happened, given it's not impossible. The evidences establish proof, justification, and in your case it was shown by most of the other participants in this thread that the evidences are unreliable, unconclusive and that this whole theory mirrors quite well the other theories of Europeans reaching America before Columbus (except Viking travels, of course).
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 24-Apr-2008 at 08:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 13:53
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

....How is your claim

 

Is not my claim. I never said it did happen. I am just posting certain evidence that that event may had happened. 

 

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

....that Amerindians and/or Inuits made contact (accidentally or not) different than claiming that Israelites came over or that any other group came over from the Old World prior to Columbus?

 

The journey is shorter; the evidence of landing exists.

 

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

....
These claims are just as absurd as yours.


 

Blame Pliny, Columbus and other for the idea, not me LOL

In any case, I haven't heared that anyone of certain importance ever wrote about the Lamanites, except by John Smith Wink

 

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

....
Distance is irrelevant if we are talking about dead bodies washing up it's possible that bodies from Africa floated to the coasts of the Americas.

 

That's true. However, in the case of Americans in Europe, it seems there are cases were the poor lost sailors landed alive in Europe.

 

 


It's the position that you are arguing for, hence your claim. Maybe I missed when you said that you are going to argue that side but don't really believe it. By the way I don't get the impression that you don't believe that Amerindians and/or Inuits made it to Europe.

So since the writing system(s) of the Americas as a whole was not as developed as that of Europe as a whole, that's evidence that people never crossed the Atlantic from the Old World to the Americas?

The "evidence" that you supplied is dubious at best especially since the people were described as Indians (from India) not at a different race. The Romans were very good about putting ethnic peoples into their respective boxes. That is they could tell the difference between one ethnic group and the other. This is just pseudo-History and you are tailoring evidence to your case that it just not strong. If your evidence was veritable don't you think some Post-Modernist would have made that point which you are trying to make?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 14:54

Now I can figure it out how many problems had Columbus to convince the European kingdoms to finance his adventure :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 11:10
This object could be anything. For some reason, it is alway this particular picture that is shown - could be interesting to se the object from other angles.
 

 
Notice how it does not exactly look like any living animal. To suggest that it MUST represent an Elephant is ludicrous. It could just as well be a mouse, a tapir, or a combination of animals created by the creators imagination. It is obviously stylized, just look at the tail. Elephant does not have round ears like that, and elephants have a long trunk, not a short tapering one like shown in the image. So, while there may be features that doesn't exactly match a mouse or a tapir, it also has features that doesn't EXACTLY match an elephant.
If you argue that it cannot represent a mouse, simply because the features doesn't match exactly, then the same must be true for the elephant.
 
Tapir:
 
 
Elephant:
 



Edited by Jams - 25-Apr-2008 at 11:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 11:44
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

Pinguin, any event may had happened, given it's not impossible. The evidences establish proof, justification, and in your case it was shown by most of the other participants in this thread that the evidences are unreliable, unconclusive and that this whole theory mirrors quite well the other theories of Europeans reaching America before Columbus (except Viking travels, of course).
 
 
 
That is not entirely true. Some events are more probable than others. The probability that Inuits could have traveled to Europe is very high compared to some of the others mentioned. They did travel a lot as a lifestyle, remember? By sea!
So, while there's no real hard evidence of Inuits ever reaching Europe, and maybe they never did, there's a high probability that it could have happened!
 
AS Pinguin mentioned, the flat maps give a wrong impression of the distances, just look at a real globe, and you'll see that they're much shorter in the north.
 
You can always use Google earth:
 



Edited by Jams - 25-Apr-2008 at 11:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 16:08

In fact, looking at the earth, above, it is almost impossible to believe that Inuits never reached Iceland from Greenland! It is so close, indeed.

And Iceland is Europe

 



Edited by pinguin - 25-Apr-2008 at 16:08
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 16:23
Originally posted by Jams Jams wrote:

That is not entirely true. Some events are more probable than others.
Probable and possible are two different things.
 
Quote The probability that Inuits could have traveled to Europe is very high compared to some of the others mentioned. The probability that Inuits could have traveled to Europe is very high compared to some of the others mentioned. They did travel a lot as a lifestyle, remember? By sea!
So, while there's no real hard evidence of Inuits ever reaching Europe, and maybe they never did, there's a high probability that it could have happened!
The probability that Inuits could have traveled to Europe is unknown (do you have any reliable figure on it?), thus this claim rests on no evidence.
 
Quote AS Pinguin mentioned, the flat maps give a wrong impression of the distances, just look at a real globe, and you'll see that they're much shorter in the north.
The distances are the same anywhere, we calculate them in kilometers not in what our eye perceives from a projection. And actually the narrowest width of the Atlantic is between Africa and South America. Maybe you or Pinguin are misled by projections (and probably because of a globe projection he even claimed Newfoundland to be arctic!!), I'm not.
 
 
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