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Forum LockedAmerindians and Inuits in Europe, before Columbus

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 17:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Second evidence:
  
Aeneas Sylvious, after citing the event described by Pliny wrote about another event that happened during the 12th century. He talks about an "Otto" (probably Otto of Freising) and says that during the reign of one of the Germans Emperators, a
 
"boat and Indian traders were caught on the German coast, to which place, from unwelcomee contrary wind from the east blowing constantly, they arrived accidentally"
 
The event happened circa 1160s and is supposed to happend in the West Baltic or in the Frisland region between Denmark and Netherlands. 
 
Yes, but the unwelcome contrary wind blew from the east, which meant that they were travelling east on purpose. It doesn't seem very likely if they were from the Americas...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 20:10
umm! You are right. Let me check it up the source and I come back. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 20:22
Those stories are comparable to those of Corte Real, Scolvus, Madoc and Basque fishermen: possible, but not enough evidence to prove it.

In any case rejecting Corte Real and Scolvus reaching America as a fairy tale while at the same time accepting Inuit arriving in Lbeck is hard to justify.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 21:17
Pinguin, the geographical conception of the world was very twisted (from our point of view) in Antiquity and a large part of the Middle Ages. Many believed various rivers and seas which now we know they were not. Some believed that between Caspian Sea you can reach to the Baltic by water. On the other hand Indian didn't mean only from Indian peninsula, and sometimes it was just a vague reference for "beyond Iran" (Persia/Parthia etc.). I'm not sure if your accounts did those confusions, but that could be a scenario in which people could imagine Indians navigating to Germany's shores. What is certain that Indians were not Amerindians.
 
The later accounts can simply reiterate the most ancient one in different coordinates. It's like a story being told over and over and adorned with new elements. Please also note that your second account narrates an event from 1160s, while your third an event from 1153, the closed dates hint again to a retelling of the same story.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 22:14
Besides, Pinguin, proof that the Indians and Inuits were nothing but a bunch of incapable idiots: why would they go again and again to Lubeck of all places while they could have gone to Amsterdam, Paris, Baleares Islands, Venice, etc you know some serious tourism.

Take Colombus on the other hand. A real smart guy: where did he go as soon as he arrived in the Americas? The most interesting place, best girls, best beaches, best mojitos: Bahamas!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 02:08
Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:

Besides, Pinguin, proof that the Indians and Inuits were nothing but a bunch of incapable idiots: why would they go again and again to Lubeck of all places while they could have gone to Amsterdam, Paris, Baleares Islands, Venice, etc you know some serious tourism.
 
Perhaps they were idiots, to confuse the European man with Gods. Just imagine that. Other people knew better. Chinese called Europeans monkeys and Africans called them devils; that's intuition Wink

Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:


Take Colombus on the other hand. A real smart guy: where did he go as soon as he arrived in the Americas? The most interesting place, best girls, best beaches, best mojitos: Bahamas!
 
Yeah! Nice weather. However, he wasn't seaching for a place to have a tan. He just wanted easy cash .... Just like the street robber these days
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 17-Apr-2008 at 02:14
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 02:28
There is more to come. Please be patient.
Just notice that there are SEVERAL records of people from "India" reaching Europe by sea. I wonder if all of them are just the product of imagination.
 
Fourth Evidence:
 
Lopez de Gomara, Spanish Writer wrote (In Spanish, sorry)
 
"...en el tiempo del emperador Federico Barbajora (1155-1190) aportaron a Lubec ciertos indios en una canoa...."
 
Paul Gaffarel, who studied the topic declared:
 
"Therefore it seems that the Greeks and Romans never went to America. On the contrary, there are Americans who, during the first century before the Christian era, might have come to Europe".
 
It is interesting to note that Christopher Columbus believed in those stories. Therefore, the very fact they existed changed the history.
 
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 02:50
Hmm Columbus was convinced that the new world was a woman breast!!!

Besides, in Spanish or not, it is still an echo of the previous two events, a second hand record written several centuries after. The fact that it was written after 1492 makes it even dodgier as a piece of evidence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 03:11
Don't hurry up. I am going to switch to Inuits now.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 03:47
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

"...en el tiempo del emperador Federico Barbajora (1155-1190) aportaron a Lubec ciertos indios en una canoa...."
 
Paul Gaffarel, who studied the topic declared:
 
"Therefore it seems that the Greeks and Romans never went to America. On the contrary, there are Americans who, during the first century before the Christian era, might have come to Europe".
 
I mean I'm not an expert in chronology or anything, but it seems to me that either Paul Gaffarel is talking about some other event or the Inuits/Amerindians had access to time travel technology...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 04:37
Originally posted by Decebal Decebal wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

"...en el tiempo del emperador Federico Barbajora (1155-1190) aportaron a Lubec ciertos indios en una canoa...."
 
Paul Gaffarel, who studied the topic declared:
 
"Therefore it seems that the Greeks and Romans never went to America. On the contrary, there are Americans who, during the first century before the Christian era, might have come to Europe".
 
I mean I'm not an expert in chronology or anything, but it seems to me that either Paul Gaffarel is talking about some other event or the Inuits/Amerindians had access to time travel technology...
 
Paul Gaffarel studied the topic of contact, not the above quote LOL
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 09:58

Originally posted by Pinguin Pinguin wrote:


Antonio Galvano, Portuguese carthographer, wrote in 1555 the following:
 
"In the year 1153, in the time of Frederich Barbarosa it is written that there come to Lubec ... one canoe with certain Indians, like unto a long barge: which seemed to come from the coast of Baccalaos (Newfoundland region)... The Germans greatly wondered to see such a barge and such a people, not knowing from wence they came, not understanding their speech, especially because there was no knowledge of that country.
 
Galvano, Discoveries. 18.


Quote Lopez de Gomara, Spanish Writer wrote (In Spanish, sorry)
 
"...en el tiempo del emperador Federico Barbajora (1155-1190) aportaron a Lubec ciertos indios en una canoa...."

Lopez de Gomara is also a 16th century writer. It is obviously the same story (this time it even has the same elements: Barbarossa's reign, Lubec, Indians, canoe and moreover was written in the same era).

Paul Gaffarel is a 19th century author. His evidence for contact in "the first century before the Christian era" is? The account of Cornelius Nepos - i.e. your first evidence?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 16:42
You still haven given us a reason to accept Inuits in Lbeck but reject Corte Real in Newfoundland.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 04:57
Well, with respect to Corte Real, the Vikings and the Inuits, I have the idea that somehow the knowledge about Labrador was never missed. It seem Scandinavians still knew about Labrador during the 15TH century, which makes sense. After all, five hundred years is not that much for people to complete forgot a major historical event.
 
So, why not? Perhaps Corte Real was in the Americas with the help of his norse friends . And perhaps Inuits of the same time used to go paddling to Denmark to visit relatives from Greenland Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 05:17

Pinguin,

Aside of the Ameridians' travels to Europe do you know of any accounts of their journeys to the other part of the world through the Pacific. Japan, Korea, China..?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 12:20
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Pinguin,

Aside of the Ameridians' travels to Europe do you know of any accounts of their journeys to the other part of the world through the Pacific. Japan, Korea, China..?

 
Only one. There is a legend about Tupac Youpanqui, ancient Inca, reaching somewhere to Polynesia in a fleet of balsa rafts.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 19-Apr-2008 at 05:06
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2008 at 13:02
Lets'  agree that several accounts talk about possible contacts of Amerindian people to Europe. The more documented happened during the first and twelve century, and commented by several authors, including Pliny.
 
Fifth Evidence
 
Let's go to Inuits now. The first contact of an Inuit in Europe seem to have happened in 849 A.D.
Well, that's if we believe the people of the Dutch community of Zierikzee in Dutchland. The people there has believed for a long time that a "Zierik" (Inuit) arrived by sea to found the city. What is even more strange is that they have the kayak of the Zierik in the community museum.
 
Gert Nooter, Old Kayaks 6-7, 64-69
 
Indians in Europe, Christian F. Feest, U of Nebraska (Collection of essays)
(See essay Inuits in Europe
 
It is a tale from "Believe it or not". Does it really happened?
 
At least, my purposse is to show that there are SEVERAL accounts of visits to Europe of people from the New World. It is not simply artistic style comparissons that pseudo-history love so much. Is more than that. For some strange reason, Europe is plenty of history of people comming from the West by sea.
 
I couldn't find the pictures of the Zierikzee kayaks or more data on the topic. If our European friends know more, please colabate. Another phrase picked on the web:
 
"There are also two kayaks in Zierikzee and Hoorn in the Netherlands which are recorded as having been found in the North Sea
"
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2008 at 13:33
Zierik meaning Inuit? Inuit means Inuit in Dutch, and Eskimo means Eskimo. Zierik does not have any meaning. Have you any evidence that the kayak they found was Inuit? People here built boats as well after all.

EDIT:
I did some googling, and I found out there is indeed an Inuit kayak in a museum in Zierikzee

dating from the 18th century.


Edited by Mixcoatl - 19-Apr-2008 at 13:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2008 at 13:44

Well, there are two kayaks, according to my own googling. I have not found more refferences. The book in which I base my posts, and that will keep in secret for a while LOL, and also this page:

 
They both talks about a tradition in Zierikzee that says the founder arrived in an Inuit kayak from Greenland in 849. Perhaps the man was not Inuit, but the kayak was! And if the arrival was from Greenland then it is evidence the trip from the Americas in kayak is possible.
 
The man that arrived from there is Zierik
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2008 at 14:00
Pinguin, that book says the tradition says 849 AD, but tracing back the boat goes to 18th century. So, as far as the evidence goes, that voyage happened in the 18th century, not in the 9th.
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