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Forum LockedAmerindians and Inuits in Europe, before Columbus

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 01:42
Originally posted by Pinguin Pinguin wrote:

Pretty pathetic.
 
 
 
However, the text I cited was this:
 
Caecilius Metellus

Pomponius Mela writes,and is copied by Pliny the Elder, that Quintus Caecilius Metellus Celer (died 59 BCE), proconsul in Gaul received "several Indians" (Indi) as a present from a Germanic king. The Indians were driven by a storm to the coasts of Germania (in tempestatem ex Indicis aequoribus).
Metellus Celer recalls the following: when he was proconsul in Gaul, he was given people from "India" by the king of the Sueves; upon requesting why they were in this land, he learnt that they were caught in a storm away from India, that they became castaways, and finally landed on the coast of Germany. They thus resisted the sea, but suffered from the cold for the rest of their travel, and that is the reason why they left.
 
You're clueless. You accused me of doing a mess with Pliny's quotes and I proved you wrong. And the text you cited for Pliny was this:
"The same Nepos relates the following with regards to the northern passage: Indians were given as a gift to Quintus Metellus Celer by the king of Suevi. The Indians have been sailing from India on a trading mission but had been carried off to Germany by storms"
 
So what does Mela have to do with this? On Mela I told you earlier he speaks of gryphons near Caucasus, but you had nothing to reply.
 And this passage of Mela is misread and it was already proved.
 
Quote Indeed. Not all are Blacks.  But Afrikanners and Brits only recently settled in South Saharan Africa...
You have no idea about African populations. I'm talking about groups from Western Africa like Mandingos or Fulani who have various nuances of brown, not black.
I see you dropped that racist argument that Western Africans can't swim or sail. And I just digged for an article especially for you: Robert Smith - "The Canoe in West-African History" in Journal of African History XI.4/1970.
 
Quote Well, but the notes of the Portugueses have the same value that Columbus testimony. I just said you should consider both at the same level of credibility.
Yes, I give them the same level of credibility. I.e. that a sailor can recognize something floating, whereas he can't tell the difference between people he never saw. Or that a sailor has reasons to lie to persuade others to support his journey (did I ever say Columbus lied about his landing in Bahamas? Can this account of African boats be suspected from some obvious reasont to be a lie?). Or that this account is supported by numerous first-hand contemporary sailors (Portuguese, Dutch, etc. - read that article above), while Columbus' testimonies have a much weaker support. Moreover archaeology, ethnography (e.g. check the article "Water Ethos" in African Folklore: An encyclopedia - most of the cases are from Western Africa) support the testimony of this Portuguese, whereas nothing supports Columbus' story that Chinese (or your variant that Native Americans) ever landed in Western Europe before or in his times.
 
Quote That's not what Columbus and also the people in Galway believe
I doubt that most people in Galway are scholars and knew these passages from Pliny and Mela. The only ones connecting all these accounts in one shaky theory are Forbes and his kind (you included).
 
Quote Jesus unreliable? Jesus!
You see, most people from this Earth are not Christians. Maybe for you this native contact story is just a religious belief like Christianity. For me, it's not. Probably that's why can't be dialogue between us.
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 05-May-2008 at 01:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 01:50
 
Monument to Columbus UFO sighting at Galway
In the monument was written by some "dumb" Genoese people the following:
 
On these shores, around 1477, the Genoese sailor Christophoro Colombo found sure signs of land beyond the Atlantic.
 
The city of Genoa to the City of Galway. 29 VI 1992.
 
 
As it as been shown in this thread by some scholar experts..., those Genoese had to be loonies Clap
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:04
Quote
Monument to Columbus UFO sighting at Galway
In the monument was written by some "dumb" Genoese people the following:
 
On these shores, around 1477, the Genoese sailor Christophoro Colombo found sure signs of land beyond the Atlantic.
 
The city of Genoa to the City of Galway. 29 VI 1992.
 
 
As it as been shown in this thread by some scholar experts..., those Genoese had to be loonies
Guess what, many Americans believe in UFOs. What does popular culture and local pride has to do with historical truth and scholarship?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:20
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

Quote
Monument to Columbus UFO sighting at Galway
In the monument was written by some "dumb" Genoese people the following:
 
On these shores, around 1477, the Genoese sailor Christophoro Colombo found sure signs of land beyond the Atlantic.
 
The city of Genoa to the City of Galway. 29 VI 1992.
 
 
As it as been shown in this thread by some scholar experts..., those Genoese had to be loonies
Guess what, many Americans believe in UFOs. What does popular culture and local pride has to do with historical truth and scholarship?
 
 
What scholar experts?  And to add to Chil's list, The brutal fact that notes in his hand, reffering to Galway, exist.
 
Also, if my memory is right,  The Gulf Stream runs right by Ireland's West Coast.  It wouldn't be unthinkable that something unusual to Ireland and Europe could have washed up.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:22
I agree with you, Red Clay.
 
It is very likely the event happened.
 
However, some people don't want to admit even the chance that that could happened.
 


Edited by pinguin - 05-May-2008 at 02:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:36

Some friends live on Oregon's coast.  They have an incredible collection of "stuff" from all over Asia.  All of it found on the beach.  Likewise you see stories of things washing up in Europe and vice Versa.

Aggh!  You mean I'm agreeing with you on this?  I've got to be more careful which threads I reply to.  Evil%20SmileBig%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:40

This time we agree, Red Clay Cheers

I started this thread as a game to test credibility. However, once we got in serious debate I realize the chances of landing of Ancient Americans in Europe and Canarias where very high indeed.

What convinced me was that trip in boat from New York to some Brit Islands in 55 days!
 
I really can't found out something less seaworthly than an standard European boat of the kind they used! An Amerindian dugout or a Inuit Kayak are a lot faster and better to do the job.
 
Now, I have the certainty some of those events really happened. And we have Columbus himself as a withness.
 
 
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 02:47
Originally posted by Pinguin Pinguin wrote:

However, some people don't want to admit even the chance that that could happened.
 
Who are they?
 
Originally posted by redclay redclay wrote:

Also, if my memory is right,  The Gulf Stream runs right by Ireland's West Coast.  It wouldn't be unthinkable that something unusual to Ireland and Europe could have washed up.
It is not unthinkable, but from a record that Columbus saw some "Chinese" people in Ireland to argue they weren't actually Chinese but Americans it's somehow outstretched having no argument for this substitution. They could be as well from some other place on Earth (Lapps, Finns, West Africans had much easier routes to Ireland - though I'd have to take this account as granted I'd rather take northern people because a) the distance is shorter and we know that other Scandinavians reached the Britain and Ireland and b) the account mentions they were beautiful and I take European standards of beauty Wink) or even from a galaxy, far, far, away. It's not unthinkable, right? Wink
 
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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

This time we agree, Red Clay Cheers

I started this thread as a game to test credibility. However, once we got in serious debate I realize the chances of landing of Ancient Americans in Europe and Canarias where very high indeed.

What convinced me was that trip in boat from New York to some Brit Islands in 55 days!
 
I really can't found out something less seaworthly than an standard European boat of the kind they used! An Amerindian dugout or a Inuit Kayak are a lot faster and better to do the job.
 
Now, I have the certainty some of those events really happened. And we have Columbus himself as a withness.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
But, you do realize that something that happens in one direction, can just as easily happen from the other.  As a matter of fact, easier.  The South Atlantic currents are much stronger.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 03:42
South Atlantic contacts? Nah. That's baloney. Mayans would have informed us of those events, and they didn't.
 
In the cases we are analising, though, Europeans informed us several times they have seen "Indians and/or Chinese" people landing in Europe. Of course those people came from the Americas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 03:51
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

Originally posted by Pinguin Pinguin wrote:

However, some people don't want to admit even the chance that that could happened.
 
Who are they?
 
 
Just guess LOL
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

..
 It is not unthinkable, but from a record that Columbus saw some "Chinese" people in Ireland to argue they weren't actually Chinese but Americans it's somehow outstretched having no argument for this substitution.
 
 
Confused... That's precisely what we have arguing during 30 pages of this thread. They were American because there weren't any others "alliens" available.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

..
They could be as well from some other place on Earth (Lapps, Finns, West Africans had much easier routes to Ireland
 
 
West Africans had an easier route to Ireland? Particularly if they have to ride a trunk? You really know to speak baloney, don't you? Get informmed how difficult is that route, please.
 
With respect to Lapps and Finns, I bet everyone knew them in Europe. After all, there are many Germans that look sort of Sami. So I would be very surprised if they didn't recognized people so close to them.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

..
b) the account mentions they were beautiful and I take European standards of beauty Wink
 
 
Amerindians women were usually described as beautiful in early European accounts. That was before racism hijacked the minds of Europeans since the 19th centure, and also before darwinism and nazism.  And we are talking about Europeans of THOSE times, not from WWII or the present.
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Originally posted by Pinguin Pinguin wrote:

That's precisely what we have arguing during 30 pages of this thread. They were American because there weren't any others "alliens" available.
Only in your narrow view ...
 
Quote
West Africans had an easier route to Ireland? Particularly if they have to ride a trunk? You really know to speak baloney, don't you? Get informmed how difficult is that route, please.
I know what I am talking about. You, on the other hand, had no idea until few hours ago that West Africans knew to sail or to swim. Many West-African boats were actually trunks.
 
Quote With respect to Lapps and Finns, I bet everyone knew them in Europe. After all, there are many Germans that look sort of Sami. So I would be very surprised if they didn't recognized people so close to them.
You lost that bet already, I already provided maps where a large part of Scandinavia was missing. And this was the knowledge of literate people, what about the illiterate ones?
 
Quote Amerindians women were usually described as beautiful in early European accounts. That was before racism hijacked the minds of Europeans since the 19th centure, and also before darwinism and nazism.  And we are talking about Europeans of THOSE times, not from WWII or the present.
You don't know which were the standards of beauty in 15th century Europe (particularly Ireland), spare me of your anti-European crap.
 
Quote South Atlantic contacts? Nah. That's baloney. Mayans would have informed us of those events, and they didn't.
Do you have any clue how long is South-American Atlantic coast and where were the Mayans?
 
 
 
 
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Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

 Only in your narrow view ...
 
Look who is talking Wink
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

 I know what I am talking about. You, on the other hand, had no idea until few hours ago that West Africans knew to sail or to swim. Many West-African boats were actually trunks.
 
 
Please, I invite you to show me evidence that West Africans knew the sail in pre-Muslim pre-Colonial times. Go ahead. I want to see that evidence. Just a warning. I am not talking about Maghrebians but West Africans.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

You lost that bet already, I already provided maps where a large part of Scandinavia was missing. And this was the knowledge of literate people, what about the illiterate ones?
 
 
Hard to believe that local Germans and Scandinavians didn't knew about theirs neighbour people, the Finns and Sami. Please provide evidence about this point. A map is not good enough. Show me something like "the discovery of the Finns" or something like that to really believe you.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

You don't know which were the standards of beauty in 15th century Europe (particularly Ireland), spare me of your anti-European crap.
 
 
But I have read Columbus diary, and he wrote Amerindians were pretty, more than once. He compared them with Canary Island people. And it was Columbus who documented the Galway's event.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

 
 Do you have any clue how long is South-American Atlantic coast and where were the Mayans?
 
 
Well, they were the only people able to write in the Americas at theirs time. So, if some people survived a trunk accident somewhere else, well, nobody noticed it Cry
 
The advantage in the case of Europeans is that we have theirs notes Wink.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 05-May-2008 at 04:17
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 05:36
Originally posted by Pinguin Pinguin wrote:

Look who is talking
Logic is not your strength is it? Let's review:
I accept the aliens from Galway to be from anywhere from this world (it is possible).
You accept them to be only Americans.
Whose view is narrow?
 
Quote Please, I invite you to show me evidence that West Africans knew the sail in pre-Muslim pre-Colonial times. Go ahead. I want to see that evidence. Just a warning. I am not talking about Maghrebians but West Africans.
I already did, you ignored it like most of the inconvenient evidence: 
Originally posted by Chilbudios, earlier Chilbudios, earlier wrote:

I see you dropped that racist argument that Western Africans can't swim or sail. And I just digged for an article especially for you: Robert Smith - "The Canoe in West-African History" in Journal of African History XI.4/1970.
 
Quote Hard to believe that local Germans and Scandinavians didn't knew about theirs neighbour people, the Finns and Sami. Please provide evidence about this point. A map is not good enough. Show me something like "the discovery of the Finns" or something like that to really believe you.
You're confused, you were talking about Galway, that is Irish people which are neither Germans nor Scandinavians, nor are neighbours in anyway with the Finns. So it's Columbus (if he was an eye-witness, if not heard the story from locals) and some local Irishmen trying to figure out where two corpses from the beach came from. The maps are evidence good enough until you will actually have a good counter-argument for it.
 
Quote But I have read Columbus diary, and he wrote Amerindians were pretty, more than once. He compared them with Canary Island people. And it was Columbus who documented the Galway's event.
I gotta make a correction on that because I've found the original text in Latin and it seems the English translation I relied on was misleading. The exact term describing them is "ex mirabili persona" = "of wonderful look" but also "of unusual look". How did Columbus described Amerindians in his original terms?
 
Quote So, if some people survived a trunk accident somewhere else, well, nobody noticed it Cry
 
The advantage in the case of Europeans is that we have theirs notes Wink.
 
Then maybe the Africans made it to America before anyone else crossed the Atlantic Big%20smile Any van Sertima fans around?


Edited by Chilbudios - 05-May-2008 at 05:37
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Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

Originally posted by Pinguin Pinguin wrote:

Look who is talking
Logic is not your strength is it?
 
Insulting is not my strenght. You do it freely, it seems.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

Quote Please, I invite you to show me evidence that West Africans knew the sail in pre-Muslim pre-Colonial times. Go ahead. I want to see that evidence. Just a warning. I am not talking about Maghrebians but West Africans.
I already did, you ignored it like most of the inconvenient evidence:
Originally posted by Chilbudios, earlier Chilbudios, earlier wrote:

I see you dropped that racist argument that Western Africans can't swim or sail. And I just digged for an article especially for you: Robert Smith - "The Canoe in West-African History" in Journal of African History XI.4/1970.
 
Show the extract of your argument, please. Go all the way around, and let see what you got. I don't own the Library of the Congress to read what you got.
 
With respect to racism, you seem to be very concerned to insult Africans (typical of pale people) but give a damm with insulting Amerindians or Inuits. Curious, isn't?
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

Quote So, if some people survived a trunk accident somewhere else, well, nobody noticed it Cry
 The advantage in the case of Europeans is that we have theirs notes Wink.
 
Then maybe the Africans made it to America before anyone else crossed the Atlantic Big%20smile Any van Sertima fans around?
 
You bet. That's why we see elephants, gorillas and ostriches running in the Americas. They were carried by trunks. LOL
 
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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

With respect to racism, you seem to be very concerned to insult Africans (typical of pale people) but give a damm with insulting Amerindians or Inuits. Curious, isn't?
That's a laugh coming from someone who has just been denigrating the contribution of Africans to Latin American music in another thread.
 
It's amazing how nervous you get when someone confronts you with the way black people have influenced American culture. I wonder why that is?
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Pinguin, you may need to review your attitude. Posting these LOL and assuming that another's color blinds their judgement is bordering on insecurity and racism. Just answer the questions given to you in the various posts then provide your own sources and opinions. Exclude the trivial tone and you won't see me on your back in the near future. Ignore my kind words and we will need to go over specific violations.
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Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Pinguin, you may need to review your attitude. Posting these LOL and assuming that another's color blinds their judgement is bordering on insecurity and racism. Just answer the questions given to you in the various posts then provide your own sources and opinions. Exclude the trivial tone and you won't see me on your back in the near future. Ignore my kind words and we will need to go over specific violations.
 
Thanks.
It has been a rough ride in here, with a lot of passion, as you can see LOL
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
That's a laugh coming from someone who has just been denigrating the contribution of Africans to Latin American music in another thread.
 
It's amazing how nervous you get when someone confronts you with the way black people have influenced American culture. I wonder why that is?
 
Sir. You have been denigrating the contribution of Arabs to European culture, and called Iberians not Europeans.
 
But the worst was that you said Latin American music was African and only African!
 
Please, consider your accions first, before judging me Wink
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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

South Atlantic contacts? Nah. That's baloney. Mayans would have informed us of those events, and they didn't.
 
In the cases we are analising, though, Europeans informed us several times they have seen "Indians and/or Chinese" people landing in Europe. Of course those people came from the Americas.
 
 
Not that they didn't, but rather the information didn't survive or was before the Maya.  Another possibility is that it was so common place that it wasn't worth mentioning.  Like I said, if you acknowledge the possibility from one direction, you must allow the possibility from the other.  The human spirit and drive to explore and grow is just as strong on one side of the pond as it is on the other.  And that is what my argument has always been about.  Not that one ethnic group was better or more inventive, but that the human spirit will always try new things and push forward.  We have always acted surprised when we find out that this or that group had advanced knowledge of whatever.  I haven't, just look at some of the things that the human race has come up with.  Without computers, without divine intervention or aliens, and in some instances using only stone tools.
  


Edited by red clay - 05-May-2008 at 21:52
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