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Forum LockedAmerindians and Inuits in Europe, before Columbus

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    Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 03:56

There are thousand of wild claims about people of the old world navigating to the New World in pre-Columbian times. Almost all of them are just crap that don't stand any serious investigation at all. There are exceptions, of course. Inuits, Norse and (perhaps) Polynesians reached the Americas in recent centuries before Columbus, and there are serious evidence about these cases.

A different matter, and that at first examination seems to be an even wilder fantasy is the presence of people of the Western Hemisphere in Europe in pre-Columbian times. But, it is such a wild fantasy?
 
Anyways, this is a welcome topic for me, and a revenge :) ,  after seen so much fantasies about people of the Old World reaching the Americans before Columbus.
 
As the matter of fact, the evidence of the presence of Amerindians in Europe exist and it is registered in historical records. They are well documented, and they are also part of the possible sources from where columbus got his inspiration to reach the Indies navigating to the West.
 
Let's discuss then if Amerindians and/or Inuits reached Europe before Columbus.
 
I will show what is the evidence later. For now on, I will just say that it is believe Columbus found some Inuits in Ireland during a trip down there.
 
For instance, Inuits colonized Greenland at the same time than Norse. It is not reason to believe Iceland was out of reach, or Europe. Particularly when the currents go from West to East in the Northern Atlantic.
 
On the other hand, American Indians of the Caribbean and the North American Atlantic coasts, had large canoes able to carry 60 people and more! In fact, those canoes were as big as the norse ships, and also had sails!
 
 
 
Before going to the details, let's start to argue a little.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 04:16
Inuits usually crossed from Labrador to Greenland and back in theirs kayaks. That's a superb boat that could, in theory, carry them even to Europe.
 
 
American indians of the Caribbean had large canoes that carried 60 or more people. These are just minor versions of them
 
 
The Gli Gli Carib canoe, a reproduction of the ancient ships of the Caribs.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Maya canoe of the same time. Both Caribbean and Mayan canoes were about the same size, build with huge logs.
 
 There are more information about the nautical skills of Amerindians in this thread, about the Ancient Navigators of South America.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 14-Apr-2008 at 04:18
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 05:53
I'd be interested to see the "Historical documents/records" you say register the presence of Amerindians in Europe prior to Columbus's arrival before dismissing your claim. Personally I imagine that the possibility is possible but I do not know how plausible the theory is. There is too much open water for kayaks to traverse and generally canoes were not made for traveling across the Atlantic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 07:38
The only thing Pinguin doesn't say is that the guys Columbus saw in Bristol (instead of Ireland but that's not the issue) were dead, and had been so for a while.

Now crossing North Atlantic in a kayak is definitely a feat that one would not accomplish every day. On the contrary of the North Pacific where it is possible to leapfrog from one island to the other from Alaska to Russia, in the Atlantic there is a long jump from Iceland to Ireland.

Other issue: what would they have come to do there?

Regarding the Caribbeans-Europe voyage on a canoe, I'd say impossible. Or unlikely enough to be a very slim odd. Besides, they'd be more likely to reach Africa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 07:59
Just what we need, another post of nonsense ideas.......
 
This forum is so far ahead of all other AE forums in crank ideas, now it will be in danger of lapping them.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 08:52
Yes, definitely true. Who else would have built the pyramids of Giza?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 14:56
Well Paul, you started asking for crap ideas.
 
Please don't complain now Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 15:04
Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:

The only thing Pinguin doesn't say is that the guys Columbus saw in Bristol (instead of Ireland but that's not the issue) were dead, and had been so for a while.
 
That's not the info that I have, and that I keep for a while to increase the tension :)

Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:


Regarding the Caribbeans-Europe voyage on a canoe, I'd say impossible. Or unlikely enough to be a very slim odd. Besides, they'd be more likely to reach Africa.
 
Just observe the sea currents. Reaching Europe from North America. Going from the New to the Old World reach Scandinavia and not Africa, and the trip would be a piece of cake for people that crossed from Venezuela to Cuba, Mexico and Florida as a routine.
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 15:33
One thing I have to wonder is how in the hell would those people in those canoes actually survive the journey?

Firstly, Columbus took weeks to make it to the New World. And he was travelling in sail powered vessels which were able to store large amounts of food. The Canoes, from what I can see, had much inferior sail technology to the Spaniards (most of the canoes in the pictures provided don't even have sails), which would make their journey take hugely longer.

Secondly, what are these people going to eat? Those canoes don't have room for all the food the crews need for weeks on end. And the crews need much more food than Columbus' Spaniards because they have to do so much rowing, using up more energy.

Thirdly, water. They would run out of water very quickly, and they need enough for weeks on end. How do they replenish their water supplies continually throughout the journey? I doubt rain is going to do the job - as it is both an unreliable and insufficient source of fresh water.

Just a few problems which I can't see solutions to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 15:57
I would say it is possible that some people got blown of course and landed in the Americas and vice versa. I do not bthink of much chance of a settlement being found before old Chris. Norse excepted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 16:17
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well Paul, you started asking for crap ideas.
 
Please don't complain now Wink
 
 
Difference is I don't actually believe them I just research them out of interest.
 
You believe them like a religion.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 16:27

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

One thing I have to wonder is how in the hell would those people in those canoes actually survive the journey?

 

Tainos, Arawaks and Maya had very large canoes, that carried up to 60 people, and they also knew the sail. They won’t have much problem to survive in a ship that is even larger that a viking ship. With respect to Inuits, they crossed in Kayak to Greenland, and they jumped to Iceland as well in post Viking times. Wait for my evidence to show J

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Firstly, Columbus took weeks to make it to the New World. And he was travelling in sail powered vessels which were able to store large amounts of food. The Canoes, from what I can see, had much inferior sail technology to the Spaniards (most of the canoes in the pictures provided don't even have sails), which would make their journey take hugely longer.

 

Columbus took the equatorial route. The Artic route is a lot shorter. Although very dangerous, it is possible to cross in summer in relative short time.... with good luck.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Secondly, what are these people going to eat? Those canoes don't have room for all the food the crews need for weeks on end. And the crews need much more food than Columbus' Spaniards because they have to do so much rowing, using up more energy.

For inuits, they could eat fish on the way. I have no idea how they managed to carry water at all. For Caribbeans, they had larger boats.


Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Thirdly, water. They would run out of water very quickly, and they need enough for weeks on end. How do they replenish their water supplies continually throughout the journey? I doubt rain is going to do the job - as it is both an unreliable and insufficient source of fresh water.

 

In the Artic you can jump from island to island. That may be the way they do it. If they ever did.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 16:28
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

...
Difference is I don't actually believe them I just research them out of interest.
 
You believe them like a religion.
 
 
Me? I am a skeptic by principle. I just enjoy to interchange ideas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 18:35
Is it possible? Perhaps.
But the main problem is that there is absolutely no evidence that Amerindians or Inuits have ever arrived in Europe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 19:01
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

Is it possible? Perhaps.
But the main problem is that there is absolutely no evidence that Amerindians or Inuits have ever arrived in Europe.
 
There is evidence. Just wait for me to post it Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 20:05
In any case the work of the wacko Mayanist Augustus le Plongeon (1825-1908) should be noted here. Le Plongeon claimed Ancient Egypt culture was created by the Mayans, that the inhabitants of Atlantis were Mayas and that Mayas already used electricity and the telegraph. He also believed Freemasonry had its roots in the Maya civilization.

Although Le Plongeon seemed to believe the Mayas were behind everything he could think of, he also believed Palenque was not built by the Mayas, but by Polynesians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 22:40
Ok Pinguin (gosh I feel like Batman), time for you to check a few things:

1. There is a current going straight from the Caribbeans to Africa.
2. For canoes, it is likely that wind matters more than currents and as you know half of the year the dominating winds in the Americas blow from West to East, directly to Angola. Which makes the idea of Indians in Africa more likely than in Europe.
3. If they choose to go North, why would they go all the way to Europe while there were very interesting things to do before? Why sending a canoe to Europe while you still have no commercial relationships with the Hurons? The European discoveries were very much leapfrogging. First Madeira, the Canaries, Islands, Greenland, Azores, Newfoundland, western Africa and only after all that the Americas. Why would the Caribbeans just ignore all the easy discoveries?
4. It is perfectly possible that a canoe or a kayak managed to reach Europe. There are a truck load of stories of amazing survival at sea for 40, 50 or even 100 days. But what would it mean? It is unlikely that they managed to go back to where they came from, unlikely that they actually understood what was going one and even more unlikely that they would have found the way to come back to Europe had they wanted it.

All that to say that there might have been "contact" but not "discoveries" which supposes a process of learning, an understanding of the world and, as any scientific discovery, the capacity to reproduce the experiment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 23:03

Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:

Ok Pinguin (gosh I feel like Batman), time for you to check a few things:

1. There is a current going straight from the Caribbeans to Africa.

 

Yes, but the few chuncks of evidence comes from Scandinavia, the British Islands and Germany, not Africa.

 

Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:


2. For canoes, it is likely that wind matters more than currents and as you know half of the year the dominating winds in the Americas blow from West to East, directly to Angola. Which makes the idea of Indians in Africa more likely than in Europe.

 

Perhaps it is a problem in concepts here, Caribbeans had canoes but of an unprecedent size (carrying 60 people!), like Mayans and some North American indians as well. I am not talking about paddling to Europe but sailing.

 

Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:


3. If they choose to go North, why would they go all the way to Europe while there were very interesting things to do before? Why sending a canoe to Europe while you still have no commercial relationships with the Hurons? The European discoveries were very much leapfrogging. First Madeira, the Canaries, Islands, Greenland, Azores, Newfoundland, western Africa and only after all that the Americas. Why would the Caribbeans just ignore all the easy discoveries?

 

The Caribbeans traded with North Americans in Florida and up north. The hypothesis is that somehow they were carried by the currents by accident all the way from North America to Europe, in a couple of weeks.

 

Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:


4. It is perfectly possible that a canoe or a kayak managed to reach Europe. There are a truck load of stories of amazing survival at sea for 40, 50 or even 100 days. But what would it mean? It is unlikely that they managed to go back to where they came from, unlikely that they actually understood what was going one and even more unlikely that they would have found the way to come back to Europe had they wanted it.

 

They never returned.

Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:


All that to say that there might have been "contact" but not "discoveries" which supposes a process of learning, an understanding of the world and, as any scientific discovery, the capacity to reproduce the experiment.

 

Yes, I am talking about accidental contacts, not discoveries. Perhaps it never happened, but curiously there are several witness account of strange people coming from “India” (the West) to unexpected places in Europe. They could have been Inuits or Amerindians, or both. I will put the references later.

 

Now, there is two periods to consider. Before the Norse and after the Norse. Before the Norse the contact was harder. But after the Norse reached Greenland and traded with the Inuits, it could had happened that some ventured into the lands of those foreigners. After all, most of the accounts of Inuits in Europe are from post-Norse times.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 23:11
This is ridiculous. Pinguin has been reading Von Dannigan again. Any minute spacemen taking Indians to Europe........... Wait for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 23:31
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

This is ridiculous. Pinguin has been reading Von Dannigan again. Any minute spacemen taking Indians to Europe........... Wait for it.
 
Nope.
It is serious stuff Wink
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