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Forum LockedAmerican (Continents, not country) War on Drugs

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Poll Question: How do you feel on the Drug War policies enacted by American countries
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 17:32
 But aren't people after the effect if their going to bother with it anyways?
Just as a example with beer, I enjoy trying all kinds of varieties, even similar ones and seeing what flavors I could pick out. One of my favorite sites is beeradvocate.com because you could learn about all the tastes of different beers. People who do this are called beer geeks, and the intention of trying all these beers is to respect beer itself and not get the side effect. Weed on the other hand is about just getting a fix.


Edited by edgewaters - 21-Jan-2009 at 18:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 17:57
As a side note, the biggest drain on social and health costs is created by people living a long time, something that tobacco and alcohol and other things tend to reduce.
 
Not an argument for involuntary euthanasia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 18:37
Dammit, I didn't mean to edit that post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 18:46
Hello to you all
 
I wrote about a similar subject some time ago. The problem with drugs, which make them way different than smoking and alcohol, is their affect on the mental health of the user.
 
Study after study proved the massive brain damage cannabies have and passive and active user alike. While alcohol and smoking do affect health they don't have the same damage on the brain as cannabies or other drugs which are times stronger than alcohol. I remember seeing a documentry on TV and a girl told the presenter she used a manufactured drug and only woke a week later in a different city.
 
Also legalising drugs will cause huge problems especially in administering it, what should be allowed and what should not be? the allowed dosages, patent problems and sources. In then end the heavily regulated drugs will be expensive and people will resort to low quality street drugs and people will die.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 18:58

Oh, so thats how you want to play edgewaters! lol I think you clipped a good amount of my post. But it's mostly opinion rather then true arguement, so I don't mind.

And gcle, wouldn't old people be profitable towards pharmaceutical companies? They do offer alot to the country in general. Old people make jobs, hospitals staff, senior homes, pharmacist, factory workers, etc... Without that segment of society, there wouldn't be alot of workers needed, and thats a huge loss of consumers. Tobacco not only costs the health care segment, but also hurts the work force that costs the country half of that 193 billion dollars. I think there would be a much larger loss of workers without a huge group made by the senior citizens. No jobs, no consumers, equal horrible economy. Thats shown in current times.
 
By the way, don't you start editting too Gcle!Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 19:14

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Study after study proved the massive brain damage cannabies have and passive and active user alike. While alcohol and smoking do affect health they don't have the same damage on the brain as cannabies or other drugs which are times stronger than alcohol.

Detoxified alcoholics often have visuospatial and visuoperceptual deficits, characterized by difficulties completing tasks such as putting pieces of a puzzle together or map reading. A new study has found that, even with prolonged sobriety, alcoholics show deficits in visuoperception and frontal executive functioning of the brain.

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/brain/a/blacer041115.htm

Results of autopsy studies show that patients with a history of chronic alcohol consumption have smaller, lighter, more shrunken brains than nonalcoholic adults of the same age and gender (1).

This finding has been repeatedly confirmed in living alcoholics using structural imaging techniques, such as computed tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Structural imaging reveals a consistent association between heavy drinking and physical brain damage, even in the absence of medical conditions previously considered to be clinical indicators of severe alcoholism (e.g., chronic liver disease or alcohol-induced dementia).

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa47.htm

About 2 million Australians - one in eight adults - are at risk of permanent brain damage because of the amount of alcohol they drink, a new survey says.

Another 200,000 Australians are already suffering from alcohol-related brain damage but do not know they have the problem, the report says.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/06/1997173.htm

Long-term and even daily marijuana use doesn't appear to cause permanent brain damage, adding to evidence that it can be a safe and effective treatment for a wide range of diseases, say researchers. 

The researchers found only a "very small" impairment in memory and learning among long-term marijuana users. Otherwise, scores on thinking tests were similar to those who don't smoke marijuana, according to a new analysis of 15 previous studies. 

In those studies, some 700 regular marijuana users were compared with 484 non-users on various aspects of brain function -- including reaction time, language and motor skills, reasoning ability, memory, and the ability to learn new information. 

Surprising Finding

"We were somewhat surprised by our finding, especially since there's been a controversy for some years on whether long-term cannabis use causes brain damage," says lead researcher and psychiatrist Igor Grant, MD. 

"I suppose we expected to see some differences in people who were heavy users, but in fact the differences were very minimal." 

The marijuana users in those 15 studies -- which lasted between three months to more than 13 years -- had smoked marijuana several times a week or month or daily. Still, researchers say impairments were less than what is typically found from using alcohol or other drugs.

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20030701/heavy-marijuana-use-doesnt-damage-brain



Edited by edgewaters - 21-Jan-2009 at 19:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 19:43
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy SearchAndDestroy wrote:

And gcle, wouldn't old people be profitable towards pharmaceutical companies?
Of course. Cost to the social system = profits to the pharmaceutical companies.  Same goes for tobacco and alcohol and of course the (illegal) pharmicists that make heroin and concaine and stuff.
Quote
They do offer alot to the country in general. Old people make jobs, hospitals staff, senior homes, pharmacist, factory workers, etc...
So do drug, tobacco and alcohol addicts. Just think of all the law enforcement jobs created bby the heroin and cocaine traffics, let alone all the jobs involved in manufacturing and distributing them.
 
Again cost to the social system = profits to the pharmaceutical companies plus jobs for the producers, distributors and law enforcers. Those $193 billion that you claim are a 'cost' to the community actually represent income to the community. They go on providing jobs and profits.
Quote
Without that segment of society, there wouldn't be alot of workers needed, and thats a huge loss of consumers. Tobacco not only costs the health care segment, but also hurts the work force that costs the country half of that 193 billion dollars.
So what do you think the $193 billion are spent on? They aren't just thrown away and they don't just vanish like investments with Madoff. Think of all the people thrown out of work if everyone stopped smoking....
Quote
 I think there would be a much larger loss of workers without a huge group made by the senior citizens. No jobs, no consumers, equal horrible economy. Thats shown in current times.
Actually there's no economic argument here either way, just propaganda for one side or the other. Moral and health and longevity issues are irrelevant to economics. If you get rid of drugs (or tobacco or alcohol) you'd have to find some alternative product to prop up the GDP and employment figures, that's all.
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By the way, don't you start editting too Gcle!Tongue
Did I?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 21:39
Good points gcle. I don't think I could argue on what you said since it's almost what I tired to make my point with. 
 On you editing my post, it was only ment to tease edgewater alittle since I responded to him and a mistake happened. Was trying to bring in alittle humor, guess I failed!LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:25
Believe me I'm just as capable as Edgewaters of making that mistake. That's why I half-believed you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 14:13
Complex topic. First, what do we call drugs? If it is what I think, why don't we include alcohol among drugs? Which is the substance that kill more people around the world, but that is glorified daily by TV advertisements.
 
Second, why there is not a cordinated effort to shut up the promoters of drugs and "alternative lifesyles" that are mainly artists that dominate the media?
 
Third, what efforts are been made to track drug routes? It seems our countries don't filter anything that enters. It is amazing in modern societies containers with drugs can enter a country... and nobody notice it. Something is going wrong with security and corruption may be just one of the factors.
 
Fourth. How come we can't trace all the drug producers in the jungles of the Americas? It seems somethings is not working there.
 
Fifth. The coca culture of the Andes should be preserved, and only the volume of coca production should be controlled. The only way to stop large scale production is helping those people to turn into other activities. That is the poorest region of South America.
 
Finally, how come Coca-Cola company is the only one that can extract coca flaworings and medicine from the Andes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 16:54
Oh yeah, I wanted to post this for Edgewaters. Seems like my state might decriminalize it, following Massachusetts. It's a pretty short article, but when we were talking about it I thought it was funny that the local news had a story on it and law makers are now discussing it here.
 
 
Quote
Finally, how come Coca-Cola company is the only one that can extract coca flaworings and medicine from the Andes?
Well Coca-Cola doesn't, a factory owned by the Stepan Company does. The factory is the only one in the country that the Drug Enforcement Adminstration allows importing of coca leaves. They then go in the process of making them spent leaves, or the removing of the cocaine naturally found in them and then it's sold to Coca-Cola. With the wide reach of coca cola, it's not very hard to see why it would be the number one customer of the Stepan company.


Edited by SearchAndDestroy - 07-Feb-2009 at 17:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 18:47

That company, Stepan, has the same owners than Coca-cola. That makes the coca leaves stuff to look less serious.

First, Coca leaves aren't cocaine. Coca leaves tea is consummed regularly in the upper Andes as a way to combat the "sickness of high altitude", and nobody flies with it.
 
Second, there are several coca based drinks in the upper Andes (once again) that are consummed by the regular population, whitout allienating anyone.
 
Third, if Coca cola can use coca leaves flavoring, why not even a coca tea could be imported to the states.
 
It is so ridiculous that not even the charango that Evo Morales gave to Condolezza Rice could enter the U.S. (because it has a cover of plastified coca leaves) LOL 
 
Third, to produce cocaine you need to concentrate tons of leaves by means of chemical processes, which have insumes that are very well know, like aether -if I am not wrong-. So, obviously that industrial activity can be traced and punished if there were the will to do so.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 21:15
I didn't know they were under the same owner, wonder if Coca-Cola could be charged for monopolizing. Though maybe it's because it's the only factory that the government will allow.
 
Even though it takes alot of those leaves, they still have to be processed so that they meet regulation guidelines. Even with them processed, people still criticize that their are still trace amounts that could effect people. Just shows that American culture doesn't accept any idea of drugs. Hell I didn't until Edgewaters showed me the light! Though I'm still not big on the idea.Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2009 at 08:58

Coca leaves are supposed to be a good way of getting people off cocaine ... or so I've heard. 

Maybe the Cocaine Importing Agency has an objection to the leaves being imported ...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2009 at 11:52
Well, if "American" culture don't accept the idea of drugs, next time you guys go to the dentists ask him/her to drill your teeth without drugs to kill pain... That's to be consistent with ideas. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2009 at 13:41
Hello edge
 
Here are some studies about cannabies damage:
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2009 at 14:16
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello edge
 
Here are some studies about cannabies damage:
 
From your link:
Dr Keith Prowse, chairman of the foundation said: . . . "It's important to remember, though, that tobacco continues to be more harmful overall because it is typically smoked in much higher quantities than cannabis."
The sensationalist headline is very eye-catching, but you really have to read these things carefully.
From your link:
According to a review carried out by UK drugs information service Drugscope, evidence of long-term mental health effects of cannabis is far from clear-cut. It points to criticism of the Swedish study mentioned by Dr Henry - and says that while cannabis consumption is increasing, the incidence of schizophrenia is not, which would suggest that cannabis may not be to blame.
I can't see how it's even possible that it's could be a causal factor in schizophrenia if (a) it is continuously increasing in potency over time (b) it is being more widely consumed and (c) schizophrenia rates are totally unaffected.
The study that the article is about, the one by Professor John Henry, is really terrible science. I mean awful. One of the most basic tenets of causation is the maxim, "correlation is not causation" which is, in fact, not even a form of deductive reasoning. It's inductive reasoning. Inductive reasoning works like this: "A guy with black hair stole a lady's purse. Therefore, people with black hair are thieves." He found a correlation between schizophrenics and marijuana use, but this is hardly surprising: one can find the same correlation between schizophrenics and tobacco or alcohol use, or use of other drugs. This is a well known phenomena in mental health; it's called self-medicating. People with some mental illnesses are driven to consume mood-altering substances (for obvious reasons). 
But yes, it probably can damage mental health in unstable people. So does alcohol. Alcohol additionally causes organic brain damage and literally shrinks the brain, such that the brains of alcoholics are actually shrivelled. Plus it can cause cancer in every major organ of the body, including the brain, because of the cellular damage it inflicts. Plus osteoperosis, for the same reason. I could go on and on ... and then I could go and talk about, say, Big Macs. There are lots of things out there that are bad for you if you abuse them.
The question is, do you want the government to be your nanny and keep you safe from all the potential health hazards out there? Even the ones you choose to risk? Maybe you should be legally forced to use public transit in the city, maybe burger joints should be banned, maybe we should give Prohibition another go, maybe parents who don't check the sandbox for kitty poops before letting their kids play there should be thrown in jail ... no. There's a point where the obsession with safety gets to be too absurd.
The only time I support the government acting like everyone's mother and outright illegalizing a thing rather than regulating and managing it is when we're dealing with something that is so physically addictive quitting can kill you (eg heroin - actually alcohol too in some cases, the "shakes" or delirium tremens, but not as commonly) or can cause you to commit crime in order to avoid severe withdrawals of that nature. Or where it's a substance that can cause a person to become homicidal (eg PCP, though I guess, once again, alcohol comes up here too).


Edited by edgewaters - 08-Feb-2009 at 14:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2009 at 15:14

He said Tobacco is more harmful because it is the most used. One to one, there is no comparison between a cigar and cannabies.

Plus, if cannabis even remotely damage the brain should't they be banned altogether?

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2009 at 15:31
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

He said Tobacco is more harmful because it is the most used. One to one, there is no comparison between a cigar and cannabies.

No, it doesn't say because it's more widely used, it says because it's "typically smoked in much higher quantities" ie on an individual basis. Someone who smokes tobacco smokes 15, 25, even 50 cigarrettes a day, every day, usually for at least one (usually more) decade. Without pause. 5 cigarrettes won't do much to your health. 25 cigarrettes a day, 365 days a year, for 25 years ... that's what people die from. Even multiplied by 5, most users of marijuana simply don't get anywhere close to that. Therefore, the author of the study said that tobacco remains far more harmful because of the quantities involved.

And the reason people smoke so much tobacco, of course, is because its far more powerfully addictive. It's both more harmful and more addictive. 

And I would have to say a cigar is probably about exactly the same as a joint, on a one-for-one basis:

"It is not unusual for some premium cigars to contain the tobacco equivalent of an entire pack of cigarettes . . . the lung cancer risk from moderately inhaling smoke from five cigars a day is comparable to the risk from smoking up to one pack of cigarettes a day."

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Tobacco/cigars

Quote Plus, if cannabis even remotely damage the brain should't they be banned altogether?

If you think so, then you have to support alcohol prohibition as well. The damage alcohol causes is far more severe and the studies that show it are far more conclusive.

Plus there are studies that show the Internet can lead to mental health issues ... so ...the fact you would make such a statement on the Internet is quite ironic!



Edited by edgewaters - 08-Feb-2009 at 15:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2009 at 15:46
I am in Saudi Arabia, i don't need to support any ban because it is already bannedBig smile.
 
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