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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 21:54

Some foreigners have been very helpful, indeed. Except those that come to Latin America to patronize, the rest are welcome.

 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 22:03
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Show your evidence.
 
Just some examples:
 

Indigenous Genocide in the Amazon Region

(Acknowlegements to Survival International)

Brazil
Dramatic Video Shows Attack on Indian Village (June 2008)

"Bishop warns of genocide of uncontacted Indians"

Survival International on the threats facing the uncontacted Indians of Rio Pardo, Mato Grosso State, Brazil:

Rio Pardo: "Top officials accused of genocide of Indians"

The Tupi-kawahyb people:
"Brazil Fears an Isolated Indian Tribe Has Been Victim of Genocide," by V.A., Brazzil Mag, 1 December 2005

Piripkura people of Colniza district, Mato Grosso:
"Real Risk of Genocide for Uncontacted Tribe" (Nov. 20, 2008)

Rondônia: The Uru Eu Wau Wau people
"Massive Invasion of Isolated Indians' Land"

Akuntsu people:
"Tribe's Last Six Survivors Speak of Genocide"

"The Akuntsu's Last Dance" (narrated by Julie Christie)

Tanaru Indigenous Territory:
"Land for Last Survivor of Unknown Amazon Tribe"

Ukarangma people:
"Arara Indians under 'threat of extinction'"

"Arara Indians Fight Bullets and Bulldozers"

"Our land is now an island and we are surrounded"

Colombia
"Nukak Tribe: 'We are being wiped out'"

Peru
15 isolated or uncontacted tribes 
News stories

Ecuador
Waorani people:

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 22:05
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Some foreigners have been very helpful, indeed. Except those that come to Latin America to patronize, the rest are welcome. 
 
As I have said, all countries who commits crimes against human rights has to be scrutinized by the international community.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 22:10

I wish the Brazilian guy come back and tell you what you deserve.

You make me remember those 19th century loonies that came to my country. In particular, the King of the Araucania, that ended in a madhouse and then deported.
 
Go to stop Finns for hunting whales and try to stop the explotation of women in your country. Then tell us lesson of morality. Thanks
 
 
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 22:32
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I wish the Brazilian guy come back and tell you what you deserve.

You make me remember those 19th century loonies that came to my country. In particular, the King of the Araucania, that ended in a madhouse and then deported.
 
Go to stop Finns for hunting whales and try to stop the explotation of women in your country. Then tell us lesson of morality. Thanks
 
 
As I stated in another thread Finns do not hunt wales but Norwegians and Icelanders does. Many people here and also in those two countries are protesing against that.
 
Sweden don´t have much exploitation of women. We have outlawed prostitution and many want to outlaw porn to.
 
Today USA sell most porn in the world. Brazil has also a large porn industry with extremely nasty and abusive movies where women are being seriously mistreated and abused.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 00:09
In re:  "Today USA sell most porn in the world."  Considering the population of the U.S., it's porno market has to be large.  To allege that it sells the "most in the world", however begs the question: Has anyone published statistics comparing the U.S. porn market to the Japanese and Chinese porn markets? My own suspicion is that China's is the largest, followed by the US and Japan.

Pinguino, I don't think it's fair to beat up on Carcharodon simply because he wants to champion a cause external to his own country. You asked for evidence, and he gave you some. How valid it is is open to question, but he did give you the opportunity to evaluate how well founded his statements are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 00:19
Regarding the original premise of this thread: There was never any reason to suppose that neolithic life in the Americas should have been at a lower level than, say, Stonehenge. But it was neolithic, though at a lower level than Tenochtitlan. What remains obvious is that the descendants of those who created Stonehenge had advanced to the early modern age at the same time that presumed Xingu had only achieved a level of development comparable to Stonehenge. The lesson for us all is that cultures can fall behind, as Europeans did during the "Dark Ages".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 01:43
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

...Pinguino, I don't think it's fair to beat up on Carcharodon simply because he wants to champion a cause external to his own country. You asked for evidence, and he gave you some. How valid it is is open to question, but he did give you the opportunity to evaluate how well founded his statements are.
 
Nobody is debating many things have to be change in Brazil. I just reacted to his patronizing attitude, and the idea that Brazil is a banana republic. More important, I reacted to the idea that Brazil have done nothing to change the obvious injustices that exist there.
 
The idea of white gods that must came to Latin America to teach locals the path of justice is what really irritates me. In here millions of people has died figthing for justice and human rights, and if necesarity millions more will do. I know that the government of Lula is not perfect, but calling it mean, corrupt or evil is an offense that government doesn't deserve.
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 08:50
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

In re:  "Today USA sell most porn in the world."  Considering the population of the U.S., it's porno market has to be large.  To allege that it sells the "most in the world", however begs the question: Has anyone published statistics comparing the U.S. porn market to the Japanese and Chinese porn markets? My own suspicion is that China's is the largest, followed by the US and Japan. 
 
Yes there are statistics about the porn selling in the world. USA, especially California are leading that statistics. But Japan and South Korea are also among the leading.
 
China is more difficult to know about since porn is outlawed there. The porn which is sold is illegal and thus there is no reliable statistics. But thinking how many people there live in China the numbers is probably high. Germany also sell a lot of porn but not so much as the US.
 
Also much of the porn on the internet are hard to include in any statistic.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 08:56
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Regarding the original premise of this thread: There was never any reason to suppose that neolithic life in the Americas should have been at a lower level than, say, Stonehenge. But it was neolithic, though at a lower level than Tenochtitlan. What remains obvious is that the descendants of those who created Stonehenge had advanced to the early modern age at the same time that presumed Xingu had only achieved a level of development comparable to Stonehenge. The lesson for us all is that cultures can fall behind, as Europeans did during the "Dark Ages".
 
Many times different cultures reach different technological levels at different times. Noone knows exactly how the cultures of the Amazon would have developed if not the Europeans had come. Because of decimation (sicknesses, violence, slavery) in connection with European arrival and colonisation, the Amazon cultures couldn´t progress in the way they were living.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 09:06
Questions about the level of Amazon culture is also connected with questions about how long time it took to reach the level it had in let us say the 15th century. 
When where different parts of the amazon colonised by their ancestors? When and why did certain technological changes occur? Only further research can answer such questions. It seems to be a lot of exciting reserach that awaits historians, anthropologists and archaeologists in the Amazon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 09:21
 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

The idea of white gods that must came to Latin America to teach locals the path of justice is what really irritates me. In here millions of people has died figthing for justice and human rights, and if necesarity millions more will do.  

 

In the case of the Xingu dam and also in the case of the land fight in Raposa Serra de Sol indigenous peoples have themselves asked for international help and support.

For example in the latter case representatives of the indigenous peoples travelled to many Europeans countries and even visited the Pope in Rome to call for attention to their situation.

 

Recently the Brazil's Supreme Court  made a final  ruling that will ensure the indigenous people of Raposa Serra do Sol can keep control of their own land.   

In addition, the president of the court also accused the government of failing the indigenous people, and said the ruling should set a precedent for indigenous land rights.

 

http://www.cafod.org.uk/news/brazil-victory-2009-03-20

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 15:48
That's right. And shows that Brazilian institutions work. Brazil is not an ideal country, but managing a country of 200 million people, large as continental U.S. without Alaska, is not an easy challange.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 16:07
Yes, well "do-gooders" from outside, and apparently, especially "White" ones,  are always resented. Yet the fact remains that at times their efforts have done a lot of good. One wonders when slavery would have ended, had it not been for Wilberforce, a few other influential English gentlemen, and a handful of Quakers who began their anti-slavery campaign in late eighteenth century England. Africans by themselves, could never have ended the slave trade, and indeed slavery as an institution continues to exist in some corners of that continent today. Likewise, African-Americans could not have ended segregation and "Jim Crow" by themselves. A generation of young, White anti-segregation activists were instrumental in that effort. On the other hand, some influential "White" do-gooders were also instrumental in convincing the world that Rhodesia was a racist state whose "communist terrorists" were really freedom fighters. They bear some of the "credit" for bringing Robert Mugabe to power. So, "White" do-gooders are a double-edged sword. They can "cut" both ways. But when the "White" world is part of the problem, as it was with the Slave trade and Segregation, and perhaps is in Indigenous survival issues, then they are absolutely necessary however obnoxiously righteous and condescending the a**holes might be.

Carchorodon: Regarding the decimation of indigenous Americans. I earlier posted links to two studies suggesting that some of the early post-conquest diseases that ravaged the Americas (Mexico and Peru in particular) were indigenous to the Americas. Apparently, occasional population reducing epidemics can be found world wide.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 18:10
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


Carchorodon: Regarding the decimation of indigenous Americans. I earlier posted links to two studies suggesting that some of the early post-conquest diseases that ravaged the Americas (Mexico and Peru in particular) were indigenous to the Americas. Apparently, occasional population reducing epidemics can be found world wide.
 
But large epidemics that have swept indigenous peoples have many times coincided very well in time with the arrival of Europeans. Still today some isolated peoples are hit by epidemics when coming in contact with outsiders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 18:18
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Yes, well "do-gooders" from outside, and apparently, especially "White" ones,  are always resented. Yet the fact remains that at times their efforts have done a lot of good. One wonders when slavery would have ended, had it not been for Wilberforce, a few other influential English gentlemen, and a handful of Quakers who began their anti-slavery campaign in late eighteenth century England. Africans by themselves, could never have ended the slave trade, and indeed slavery as an institution continues to exist in some corners of that continent today. Likewise, African-Americans could not have ended segregation and "Jim Crow" by themselves. A generation of young, White anti-segregation activists were instrumental in that effort. On the other hand, some influential "White" do-gooders were also instrumental in convincing the world that Rhodesia was a racist state whose "communist terrorists" were really freedom fighters. They bear some of the "credit" for bringing Robert Mugabe to power. So, "White" do-gooders are a double-edged sword. They can "cut" both ways. But when the "White" world is part of the problem, as it was with the Slave trade and Segregation, and perhaps is in Indigenous survival issues, then they are absolutely necessary however obnoxiously righteous and condescending the a**holes might be.


I agree. In fact, "do-gooders" started at the very time of contact. For instance, Queen Isabel itself of Spain demanded respect for natives, Father Las Casas anti-conquist campain (that created de "black legend") was very important to ensure certain respect and the survival of native americans.

Perhaps the most important "do-gooders" in Colonial Hispanic America were the Jesuits priests and theirs program of missions, that marked the developed of Hispanic South America, and left a legacy of humanity and arts unparallel in other colonial experiences.

The problem with the "do-gooders" that came after is that they, sometimes, have no idea of the countries they are going into. I know Protestants want natives to forget theirs religion. I know communists have used natives as guerrilla fighters, and in other times have killed them if they don't colaborate with theirs "wonderful" ideas. I know ecolologists want to use the Indian causes to protect flowers and butterflies from extinction.

Today, Latin America is a lot more advanced than in the past. We don't need help  in food, anymore, and we don't need medium range foreign engineers or scientists either. We have our own networks of "do-gooders" and people that work hard (sometimes risking theirs lifes) for the justice and rights of the natives.

What is disgusting is that foreigners believe they are comming to societies without government, without the will to colaborate, without moral, etc. And those foreigners believe they are messiah of causes we don't know. Come on, it is time to get informed before doing the clown. LOL







"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 19:23
We live in a global society where international solidarity gets more and more important. Many crimes against humanity in Latin America, and in other parts of the world, should just have continued if it hadn´t been for international solidarity.
 
And when people, like the indigenous peoples of Xingu or Raposa del Sol ask for international support then they are entitled to all the support that the international community can give.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 04:24
I agree on that. If natives need help and need to put presure, it is valid the ask for solidarity not only inside the country, but also outside.
However, you shoudn't forget Natives are already citizens of Brazil.
Besides, do you know that most Brazilian military in the Amazon are natives and cablocos (mestizos)?
 
 
 
Do you know many of the farmers natives are in conflict with, are also cabloco (mestizos)
 
 
So, the many events you see in the Amazon are mainly a problem of lack of control, of a "wild west frontier", that brazil has because the relative isolation of the region. As you may be aware, not only miners and farmers are fooling around there, but drug trafic as well.  All problem typical of countries that still need infraestructure, larger armies and more resources, and that Brazil has tackled during decades.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 11:35
I know it is a complicated situation in Brazil and other countries but still there must be some space left for the indigenous peoples to live their life as they themselves choose to do. If they feel the authorities in the states they live in don´t always listen to them or consider their wishes it is understandable they seek international support in their cause.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 14:01
There is a problem of concepts and ideals in here. From the moment natives get contacted it is impossible to reverse to particular ways of living. The sooner natives are vaccinated, educated, and empowered with the skills of western knowledge, the best chance they have to survive and to prosperate.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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