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Forum LockedAllah, God... and more Christian/Muslim questions

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 13:13

It was most likely because the "Tamga" of the Kayi branch of the Oghuz Turks that the Ottomans belonged to.

Most probobly there are a number of reasons.
 
1. Old Turkic tradition, the early Turks who migrated to Anatolia were muslim by name, in reality they carried on their old pre-Islamic traditions aswell, thus the Moon was Star was important aswell as the "Tug" which has a crescent moon at the top.
 
2. It was the Tamga of the Kayi.
 
3. The moon was also used by Byzantines.
 
Hence, using the moon emblem in a flag would not cause a big backlash and could be quite easily accepted by Turks and non-Turks.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 19:21
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

It's a bit rich that some like to talk about Muslims as if their purpose is solely to hate Jews, when Jews have been persecuted for over 2000 years in non-muslim Europe and found refuge among muslims.

Muslims and Jews had great relations untill 60 years ago, some Jewish and Muslim communities still get on very well.
 
 
When the Spanish expelled them, the Ottoman sultan welcomed them into his realm. The Sultan, who as well was the Khalifa. The truth of the matter is that Muslims and Jews had a rather peaceful, and fruitful relationship up until 1900s. In fact some of the early influential figures in Islam such as K'ab al Ahbar was a Judaic convert to Islam.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Balain d Ibelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 16:06
I will not answer your Questions, but I'll introduce you farther about Islam:
 
-Muslim only believes in Allah, the God of Moses (Musa) and Jesus (Isa Al-Masih). No one can be worshipped except him.
 
- Al- Qur'an is the holy book in Islam, the difference between the Bible with Qur'an is that Qur'an is a kind of "Faximilate of Heaven and World" which means that Qur'an is given from Allah (And also Qur'an is Allah's word) to Prophet Muhammad and never ever be inserted a man's opinion (if bible, it came from many versions written by persons (usually saints), right?).
 
- According to Islam, there is a verse in Qur'an which means that Muslims must abdicate to God, the verse said "Why do I create man and Spirits and living things except to Worship me". But it doesn't mean Muslim are always spending his time in Mosques, he also works like normal people, but 5 principals must be done as a Moslem which are:
 
1. Saying Shahadat which meant "No God except Allah and Muhammad is the Prophet"
 
2. Praying (doing Shalat) 5 times a day facing Kaaba in Mecca.
 
3.Paying Zakah with the Category/weight of wealth once a year(Only for the wealthy people, targetting poor people and the needy).
 
4.Fasting and doesn't do anything which is prohibited at the event,at the Ramadhan Month (A holy month in the Hijriyya Calendar) from Fajar/Fajr (Dawn) until Maghrib/Maghribi (Sunset).
(There is exception for Old people, pregnant woman, little childrens, and those who are ill for the 4th Principle)
 
5.Performing Hajj (Pilgrimage) to Baitullah (Kaaba) once a lifetime minimal, if can (Healthy, enough Wealth to support the Pilgrimage cost). For the poor people, it's not a Wajib (must-do).
 
and he must also having Iman (Believance) to Allah, His Prophet, His Angels, The Holy Books (Including Bible-Injil and Torah), The Judgement Day, and Qada'/Qadar (God's desire whenever it's good or bad).
 
And, in Islam, there is no Forcement to do something but Muslims must also get rid of the Harams (Something Prohibited from its law) such as (The Haram things): Drunken, Eating Pig or Dog, Gambling (And Many more).
 
*PS: I know those as I myself IS a MUSLIM*
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2007 at 18:41
In Aramic, the language spoken by Jesus, God is refered to as "Allaha".
In Hebrew, Moses called God as "Elohim".
 
All languages belong to Semitic Family, They all have the same root as Arabic "Allah" for God.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2007 at 08:33
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

It's a bit rich that some like to talk about Muslims as if their purpose is solely to hate Jews, when Jews have been persecuted for over 2000 years in non-muslim Europe and found refuge among muslims.

Muslims and Jews had great relations untill 60 years ago, some Jewish and Muslim communities still get on very well.
 
 
When the Spanish expelled them, the Ottoman sultan welcomed them into his realm. The Sultan, who as well was the Khalifa. The truth of the matter is that Muslims and Jews had a rather peaceful, and fruitful relationship up until 1900s. In fact some of the early influential figures in Islam such as K'ab al Ahbar was a Judaic convert to Islam.
 
 
It is believed that the Sultan said, "the spanish king is a fool, he sent me the smartest people he has".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 20:21
Moved to Philosophy and Theology

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 09:08
Heres my perspective from the Christian point of view and also my Muslim friend's point of view.
 
Christians believe their God is not the same as the Muslims because of the simple premise of Godhood. We believe Jesus is God incarnate. Muslims do not, they consider him a Nabi or prophet and as one who is close to Allah. However, Muslims consider it "shirk" to associate Jesus with God in the sense of shared essence and identification.
 
We believe in One God but we use the word One in the plural sense. The Hebrew word for "one" refers to a composite meaning rather than a singular meaning.
 
The defining difference is really over the person of Jesus. It is the only issue that matters in Christian-Muslim reconciliation.
 
My Muslim friend disagrees that Jihad is used for defensive purposes only. He says that Jihad can be used for offensive purposes as well. He defined "Jihad" as meaning "struggle" and that Jihad can mean anything depending on context. In the context of war and conquest, "Jihad" can apply defensively and offensively.
 
According to him, "Jihad" can be used to expand the Ummah as part of the goal of submission of the world to Allah.
 
He mentioned to me that non-Muslims have three choices:
 
- conversion to Islam and join the Ummah
- living under Sharia as a Dhimmi
- war
 
He is not a fanatic, he is a moderate and i appreciate his friendship :)
 
Hope that helps
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 09:30

You have to say: nowadays Jesus is God, one part of trinity. There were christian beliefs that did not agree in Trinity.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 09:35
I thought Christians believed far deeper than the god incarnate however. Because; if you believe in that - or in a Godhood that simple from a Christian perspective you end up with two gods - one that died - one that was in heaven - or with no God for a specific time when God died.

It is clear that in both it is the same God by studying the traditions and the theology.

Well he is definetly wrong on the three choices, that sounds like trivial eight grade history class rhetoric. Forced conversions were never - never - official work - and conversions did not happen en masse until after the Crusades in the Middle East and Egypt.

A Dhimmi simply means someone who pays a tax to avoid going to war. There were Christian and Jewish Arab tribes that never paid it, but participated in war.

War? That again is a falsehood to the core, due to the fact that the Qu'ran specifically forbids any kind of hostile action being undertaken, or hostile acts, save for those done under self defense.

There were states that co-existed just fine.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 10:58
There are Christians who don't believe in the Trinity? But so what? Does that make them right because they agree with your beliefs? That is their choice anyway.
 
The reason why Muslims have trouble understanding the Trinity is because they've never asked a Christian about it properly or have simply guessed or assumed what we believe through their own logic. I've come across Muslim objections to the Trinity many times and always the same question which leads me to believe that they don't even attempt to understand the doctrine and instead accuse of us worshipping three gods.....which I deny as there is only one God.
 
Let me explain the Trinity.
 
There is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
 
Therefore, there are three persons but only God. It is a mystery that defies human logic and explanation. Do we as men think we can define God with our human words and logic....if we understood all the things of who God is....he can't be God since we humans have only a finite knowledge and yet God is infinite. Do you understand the implications. The Trinity defies human logic and explanation but the Bible alludes to the Trinitarian character of God who is still one God.
 
The Hebrew uses the pluralistic version of the word "one" when it calls God "one".
 
I am sure you have heard the Shema? "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one" The word "one" in this verse is a plural meaning in the Hebrew...such as "one family"...or "one set:.
 
When Jesus (God the Son) manifested as a human, he descended from Heaven into a body that was finite. Only God can place his infinite being in a finte body. If he couldn't, how can he not be God. Is God not all-powerful, can he not defy the laws of natural physics?
 
Since we believe he God incarnate, he is both fully God and fully man. And, as such possess a spiritual and a human body which translates to a human and a divine nature.
 
Muslims are right when they God cannot die. Indeed, God did not die. But his human body did. So while Jesus died on the cross, it was his human nature that died - not his divine nature.
 
So who then did Jesus pray to then? To God the Father of course! But Muslims say "how can God pray to himself?" Well to this I say "I agree". But it makes sense when we understand it was Jesus' human nature that prayed to God. In addition, the submission of God the Son to God the Father is an example of loving obedience echoing our own relationship with God the sustainer and creator of the Universe.
 
If all this goes over your head. Its understandable. It is one of the hardest doctrines to accept in Christianity. But difficult is not the same as wrong. But it still amazes me how Muslims can accuse me of believing in three gods - no reference to u guys though.
 
I have to respectfully disagree with your viewpoints concerning the Dhimmi and the issue of war because of the example of history itself. How do you conquer an empire that stretched from Spain to India through self-defence???
 
My Muslim friend actually helped me to this conclusion as we both have the same interest in Muslim history. We had a very honest exchange of views. For example, he doesn't believe in the Trinity and does not think Jesus claimed he was God.
 
We agreed that Jizya tax was not to exempt Christians from war since the early Muslim rules were a military minority. To allow Christians to arm themselves was to invite trouble.
 
IN Egypt there were several rebellions by the Coptic Christians between the 7th and 12th century.
 
But anyway, intention is not to offend.
 
Peace, Pax, Salaam, Shalom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 11:46
Hello Nestorian
 
The problem with trinity is that each christian sect, mainstream that is, has it own interpretation. Nestorians have their own which is completely differes than that of Protestants, Catholics or Orthodox. One sect says that Jesus is the incarnation of God, the other sect says Jesus has two natures, one divine and the other is human, the third says another thing and so on and so forth.
 
The problem that I face is the continuing insistance on the part of certain fundamentalist christians, particularly among protestant denominatins on the "Judeo-christian" phantom duality. The fact of the matter is that the only thing that is common between the two religions in the Bible and even that the jews don't recognise the christian old testiment. Islam has more in common with Judaism in both theology and law than christians have to either religions. The correct phrase is Judeo-Islamic rather than Judeo-christian.
 
Finally about Jizyah, dhimmis and the rest of the stuff. Let us remember, these were the middle ages, such restrictions were natural and even at certain times even exceptional. According to all the major schools of Islamic jurispudence jizyah is put because dhimmis are not recuired to fight nor they pay the zakah which interestingly according to the majority opinion they have a right to get zakah money if they needed. If they are recuired to do so they pay no Jizyah. Copts in the Rashidun and Ummayyad navies didn't pay and this is recorded as a fact. Border christian and pagan clans from any ethnicity who participate in campaigned pay nothing and are actually exempt from all dhimmi restrictions, also a famous case in Islamic jurispudence. The most notable group were the jarajimah or maradah (the maronites) as they are called today. They were allowed to settle where ever they chose, they chose Lebanon. Later of course abuses happened and even converting to Islam was forbidden for some time and those who convert were still subject to all dhimmi restrictions despite being muslim. The latter situation was stopped early but the abuses continued and the first major one came during Hisham ibn Abdul-Malik's reign who, faced with failures everywhere, decided to distract people with the subject of dhimmis.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 14:59
Quote When Jesus (God the Son) manifested as a human, he descended from Heaven into a body that was finite. Only God can place his infinite being in a finte body. If he couldn't, how can he not be God. Is God not all-powerful, can he not defy the laws of natural physics?


Can't be that simple, or else you would agree with me that for that thirty years there was no God, but in Jesus' finite body, and more importantlly so that God died and that there was no God for a short period of time or so.

Now if God died that defeats the purpose of God logically.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 16:11
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:


Can't be that simple, or else you would agree with me that for that thirty years there was no God, but in Jesus' finite body, and more importantlly so that God died and that there was no God for a short period of time or so.


Ah but it can. Wink

The pre-eternal Logos which entered into the hypostatic union was in no way disconnected from the other two persons of the Trinity. In fact, you will find that the theanthropos is constantly communing with the Godhead of which he is a part. Everything Christ did on Earth, he did according to economy; that is to say that certain actions are intended to show that God knows and has experience of the consequences of human limitation -- not in an absolute sense, as we experience these limitations, but in a voluntary and transcendent sense. The Incarnation and earthly life of Christ was accomplished for us, to unite humankind with the Divine, and to diffuse the divine into creation to redress the Fall.

And of course the fact that Christ experienced death in his humanity does not mean that "there was not God for a short period of time or so." The Logos was no less present or transcendent during the time on the Cross than at any other time. In his humanity, Christ experienced suffering and death; in his divinity he overcame them.

Quote Now if God died that defeats the purpose of God logically.


Actually, it was the way in which He chose to accomplish that purpose.

-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 16:33
Then a divine figure had been alive so to speak while the other human one died. That seems like separating the two. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 16:44
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Then a divine figure had been alive so to speak while the other human one died. That seems like separating the two. 


So to speak, sans the separation and with "had died" in place of the much more conclusive "died". Wink That is the essence of the hypostatic union.

You will note that when Christ appears to the Apostles, he does things that humans would do: he eats, he speaks, he can be touched, etc. But he also appears and disappears at will, is unrecognizable to some, and finally ascends into heaven. How are we to explain this? Glorified humanity. After the Resurrection we do not believe that we will lose our humanity and exist simply in Spirit; we believe in a bodily Resurrection, and that we will exist in that glorified state which Christ enjoyed. We Christians do not believe that Christ separated his humanity and divinity at death, or at any other moment before the Ascension; rather, when he ascended into heaven, he took human nature with him, as signified in his glorified humanity.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:28
Can't be that simple, or else you would agree with me that for that thirty years there was no God, but in Jesus' finite body, and more importantlly so that God died and that there was no God for a short period of time or so.
 
Haha, you still didn't read what I wrote did you? If you had read what I wrote you wouldn't be asking this question again.
 
I wrote earlier that God did not die, his human form did. It was his human nature and body that suffered the ravages of the normal human condition. After all, God is a spirit. A spirit cannot die, but its vessel can. Since Jesus was God and man, his human nature was the one which died.
 
I'll state it again:
Jesus is:
1. God
2. Has a divine nature because he is God.
3. Has a human nature because he is man.
4. The Hypostatic union between human and divine natures yet distinct without being separate. Harmoniously co-existent with no contradiction or division.
 
We all are composed of two natures ourselves: spirit and flesh. Our spirit never dies, but our flesh dies. So why then should God "dying" be of difficulty for you to understand when it is his human vessel?
 
There was no absence of God in heaven at all. Jesus prayed top God the Father consistently in the Gospel therefore disproving the idea of an absence of God.
 
I can't agree with you because you are stating something I don't believe in the first place!! Not only that, you've totally misrepresented Christian teachings!
 
God can't be explain by human logic, but your perspective is based on the premise that God can't do certain things....if he can't do a simple thing like manifesting his infinite being into a finite body then he is not a god. But he did because he is God Almighty, the creater, the sustainer and eternal Lord of the Heavens and the Universe and the one true God of all existence.
 
IF you really understand who Jesus was and his purpose you would realise that God became human to:
 
a) personally teach us his ways - there are prophecies in the Torah which state that God himself will one day teach his children his laws - and he did so as Jesus
 
b) demonstrate to us the promise of eternal life in the resurrection of a human body
 
c) demonstrate that we are his children since we are created in his image, it is a humbling thought to think that an eternal God would be interested in interact with his creation. In fact, Jesus calls us "brothers and sisters".
 
d) demonstrate true leadership in that leadership is humility and servanthood. God in human form washed the feet of his followers. That is the benchmark of leadership.
 
e) God loves us by taking upon himself our mistakes, our trangressions against all that is good, holy and just.
 
 Now if God died that defeats the purpose of God logically.
 
Again, you attribute a teaching we DONT teach. We don't believe God died. But his human vessel did. There is no purpose being defeated here. So what logic is effected?
 
I'm asking my Muslims friends to always clarify Muslim teachings (even if their viewpoints are different from yours) so that I won't misunderstant anything...I suggest you do the same before you falsely accuse Christians of teachings they don't teach.
 
 


Edited by Nestorian - 30-Aug-2008 at 18:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:35
He did all that perfectly fine for thousands of years. Thus no need for a human form that has nothing to do with God. I just don't see how you can equate a duality as a single form. Because for that period of thirty years you had two forms a human and a divine. Thus, you have a God, and you have a human form of God that is weakend. And if it is all one, then there is no God in the period between Jesus dying and being ressurected. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:36
That is the point of comparative study, if I want to get an idea of teachings I look at the actual, here were are discussing theology from various perspectives and introducting logic into it. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:46
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

He did all that perfectly fine for thousands of years. Thus no need for a human form that has nothing to do with God. I just don't see how you can equate a duality as a single form. Because for that period of thirty years you had two forms a human and a divine. Thus, you have a God, and you have a human form of God that is weakend. And if it is all one, then there is no God in the period between Jesus dying and being ressurected. 
 
 
Mano read the bible and you'll see why God sent Jesus and Jesus spoke of God in heaven all the time, andf it's not a dualality it's a trinity, again read the bible and you don't have two form's and it is not one, it's a trinity


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:49
There is a reason for everything. There is thus a reason for God to manifest as a human. That was to teach the good news of salvation of eternal life which was demonstrated by the resurrection of his human body. Akolouthos - if you had bothered to read his post - stated that the human and divine natures were in a union yet remained distinct. The Hypostatic union does not imply a merging or fusion but a co-existence of two natures in one person - Jesus.
 
Let me state the Chalcedonian position:
Jesus = human nature + divine nature = One person
 
Let me state the Monophysite position:
Jesus = (human + divine) nature = One person
 
No matter whether you are Dio or Mia - physitic, there is an agreement that Jesus had both a human and divine nature and that what he experienced, he experienced as a man. The scripture clearly states that Jesus left his perogative as God when descended to Earth. it did not mean he ceased being God. It meant he submitted his very person to his Father's will.
 
If you were familiar with the Trinity, you would know that there is only One God and Three Persons:
 
1. God the Father
2. God the Son
3. God the Holy Spirt
 
How then can there be an absence of God in the 30 year period then? Jesus prayed his Father (God the Father) and was comforted by the Holy Spirit (God the Holy Spirit). There is only One God. So please don't falsely accuse us of worshipping three gods.
 
I suppose I should apologise if you don't understand the concepts we are discussing. It is a a very difficult concept for outsiders to understand. Because really, we humans can only scratch the surface in understanding God.
 
The Quran may have 100 or so names for Allah, but it does not fully explain who Allah does it since Allah is an infinite being? How can finite words encapsulate the fullness of an infinite being? Likewise, our concept of Jesus only scratches the surface of the fullness of  who God is.
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