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Forum LockedAll people having blue eyes have common ancestor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 00:16
Albonoism has nothing to do with blue eyes in general, or with this study, bilal. It is an entirely different fenomenon.
 
Nevertheless, I do not really buy the story. It might be that the study was genuine, but the news-bringer messed it up both by trying to be comprihensible to laymen and have an attractive headline. Most science is messed up by oversimplification and popularisation before it reaches the general public.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 01:02
Originally posted by Aelfgifu Aelfgifu wrote:

Albonoism has nothing to do with blue eyes in general, or with this study, bilal. It is an entirely different fenomenon.
 
Nevertheless, I do not really buy the story. It might be that the study was genuine, but the news-bringer messed it up both by trying to be comprihensible to laymen and have an attractive headline. Most science is messed up by oversimplification and popularisation before it reaches the general public.
 
       I agree that many times studies are oversimplified to be comprehensible to the public. Or many times there are far too many variables at work for a single person to take into account. If you are good at lab work that does not mean that you are also good at questioning the test subjects. Many times i have sen professionals make statements that i as a layman knew about better.
 
        However albinoism is a phenomena which is pretty much related to this. Of course it is an abnormality and a disease however as they say "exceptions proev the rule" and the colouring of the skin is a phenomena which is pretty much related to melanin production. And when the production of melanin is stopped as in the extreme case of albinoism, it allows us to see effects of such a case. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 11:26
 
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy SearchAndDestroy wrote:

Quote Pretty obviously blue eyes are a genetic mutation from brown, but there's no reason - scientific reason anyway - to assume the mutation only took place once.
They just matched everyone with Blue eyes to the related a related gene that is known to effect the eyes. Following the mtDNA that everyone matches with and finding that they had a common ancestor too.
One of the things that worried me in the article was that it said
Quote
This genetic material comes from females, so it can trace maternal lineages.
that seems to show a fundamental misunderstanding about chromosomes. For one thing, if the chromosome involved is not one of the X/Y pair, it could have come from either the father or the mother, so it could belong to either the paternal or maternal lineages whatever the sex of the subject. If it was a 'Y' chromosome (the subject was male) then it would have to come from the paternal lineage, but if it was an 'X' chromosome it could have come from either the mother or the father: hence if it's from a female you don't know which lineage it represents.
Quote
 
They also said that one person did not match up with everyone else out of the group which means there was another mutation in a seperate lineage.
A different mutation would be from a separate lineage. However, the same mutation could occur in a different lineage. At best it's a matter of probability, and the odds really can't be objectively calculated.
Quote
But if mutations aren't scarce like this, then why hasn't other groups of people had similar gene changes? We see a wide veriety of peoples with the eye colors, but they have been linked for centuries too.
 
Gcle, I know you are far more knowledagable on this subject, but these are questions I've thought about and these just seem to fit in with what this article is about. They are discussing people from Europe to the Middle East, and these people have had close links with each other throughout history. But we don't see these mutations in sub-sahara Africa, or the far east. But in the United States, I have seen African Americans with eyes that are on the more greener side, and to me that points to a mix in their background.
Mutations changing eye colour may well be rarer than the example I gave of haemophilia. And as Temujin pointed out, there are different 'blues' involved, so it isn't a question of all these people having identical part-genotypes. The important thing however is that all hese calculations are probabilistic, not definitive.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 02-Feb-2008 at 11:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 17:13
I see, guess I have alot more studying on this subject. First I have to find the right sources to read from. Thanks for answering my questions/statements and explaining it all to me. Seems like when I'm finally getting the idea on a subject, I learn something of the total opposite! But reading what you said does make alot of sense to me.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 00:02
Well the light eyes are prone to more degenerative  diseases though, so it doesnt seem positive at all to me. The humans developing blue eyes to attract mates, doesnt sound plausible, I mean I am sure we willed ourselves to develop wings far more than say, blond hair or eyes.

Anyway,  according to the article it came from the Black Sea, yet one of the knucklehead says it came from Afghanistan, well Afghanistan isnt near the black sea, Greece is closer. People from Turkey are largely Turkified Greeks, Latin's and Gallics, and going back to 6-15,000 years, wouldve been no the doubt the Indo-European migrations.
 
<<Blue eye colour most likely originated from the near east area or northwest part of the Black Sea region, where the great agriculture migration to the northern part of Europe took place in the Neolithic periods about six10,000 years ago.

That is my best guess, he said. It could be the northern part of Afghanistan. >>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml;jsessionid=APJEN0U2XRMFFQFIQMGCFFWAVCBQUIV0?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/earth/2008/01/30/scieyes130.xml

That a specific single female or X Chromosome thing though is throwing me off, but it supposed to have come from the Neolithic, from the Agriculturists.

My guess is it came with Y-Chromosomes I & J though.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/12/s22-shared-by-y-haplogroups-i-and-j.html

But mtDNA like J or H can also be likely as well.








Edited by Tyranos - 03-Feb-2008 at 00:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 00:26
Quote The humans developing blue eyes to attract mates
It wouldn't have developed for this reason, but would have continued to spreasd because of it being attractive. Birds didn't just develope bright colors for mating reasons, the mutations just helped their chances. And those with the most vibrante colors in those species of birds are the ones that win out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 07:31
An interesting theory, being the neophyte that I am when it comes to this branch of study I'm not sure what to make of it at this time.
 
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000 bilal_ali_2000 wrote:

       And about  blue eyes. Blue eyes are very sensitive to sun light. I had an albino friend Ammad. And his eyes were almost completely shut because he was extremely sensitive to the abudant sunlight of Pakistan and could not open them at all. Same is the case with almost all the other albinos which i see occasionally, their eyes are almost completely shut because they are very sensitive to sunlight. The picture that i have posted of  an albino African has lost his eye sight completely because of this and the website is asking for funds so that they can supply the albinos of Tanzania with sunglasses to pretect them from the sun.
    And whenever there is not too much sunlight there will be no reason for melanin in their eyes and they will tend to have blue eyes like many people in the cold climates of the Himalayas, Turkey and North Africa have.      
Now this I found most interesting (god, my vocabulary is pathetic, that seems to be the only word I can think of to use besides intriguing.Ouch) because I have definitely noticed this; I'm not an albino, nor do I know any, but I have noticed this more times than I can recall.  On sunny days (which, perhaps unsuprisingly I hate, especially during my baseball days) I often have to walk around with my eyes near closed, staring at the ground, shielding them with my hand continually, etc. etc.  and noticed my other relatives never had this problem.  (the ones I am referring to all have brown eyes)  Perhaps I now know the reason, thanks for mentioning it bilal.  If I was not such an unobservant person I hope I would have put two and two together...  Even then probably not.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 07:40
You mean you have blue eyes, and never connected that to bright sunlight bothering you? Hm, I suppose the advantage of living in a country full of blue-eyed people is that things like that are more common knowledge. In summer, I wear mildly tinted uv-filtered sunglasses even when it is not sunny, simply because the brightness of the light will give me a headache. BTW, contact lenses make your eyes even more light-sensitive, dont know if you have those?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 08:19
Originally posted by Aelfgifu Aelfgifu wrote:

You mean you have blue eyes, and never connected that to bright sunlight bothering you? Hm, I suppose the advantage of living in a country full of blue-eyed people is that things like that are more common knowledge. In summer, I wear mildly tinted uv-filtered sunglasses even when it is not sunny, simply because the brightness of the light will give me a headache. BTW, contact lenses make your eyes even more light-sensitive, dont know if you have those?
I'm a rather...whats the word...oblivious sort of individual.  If bilal hadn't mentioned that I'd probably have grown old and died still having no idea.LOL  (there's a great saying; out of mind out of something, of course I can't remember it, sums me up quite well though) It very well could be common knowledge here and I'm simply the only one unawares.  Hmm, I don't wear contacts but that makes sense they would increase sensitivity. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 09:32
Strange my sister never seems to mention it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 11:16
Not everyone is equally sensitive. My brother and sister are a lot less bothered by it. My borther tans too, which me and my sister do not. I am by all means exessively sensitive to the sun, but if Justinian fequently has headaches and sore eyes in summer, shades might well do the trick. (The headache is caused by musclecontractions from squinting, which is the bodies own way of trying to protect the eyes, not the light itself) Even if one is not bothered by the sun, wearing shades in bright sunlight is better for blue eyed people, as melanine is natures protection against uv-radiation and of course is mostly lacking in blue eyes.

Edited by Aelfgifu - 04-Feb-2008 at 11:18

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 12:58
I'm the same as Aelfgifu though my eyes are green. However, as well as skin colour, I think defective vision (lack of focus) plays a part too. So I have prescription glasses that automatically darken in sunlight, taking care of both problems.
 
Before they were invented I had prescription sunglasses and prescription ordinary ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 13:35
 
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000 bilal_ali_2000 wrote:

This is an albnio from far east asia (indonesian)
 
This is an albnio from Tanzania(Africa)
This is an albino from Japan (Far east)
 
AS you can see blonde hair and blue eyes exist among all populations. And seeing the condition of skin of these people you can understand that why blonde hair and blue eyes is not the normal course of things in those environments.
 
Yeesh, I've seen a few albinos in my life, Europeans and Asians, but none of them were particularly ugly beyond being far too pale.
 
I have blue eyes, but I tan just fine and I've never experienced the symptoms Justinian mentioned, I'm guessing those could have many other causes. Personally I developed blue eyes with the specific purpose of attracting mates, but it hasn't been working lately so I'm thinking of switching to green.


Edited by Reginmund - 04-Feb-2008 at 13:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 13:44
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

My eyes are green Embarrassed
 
So are my children's and some grandchildren's.
 
But no-one previously in my family had green eyes.


Instead of Blue or Brown -Green eyes are a result of mutation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 18:49
^^^         No they are not. It all falls into the various shades which the eye can take from light cyan(not actually blue) to very dark brown.
 
          The pictures of Albinos that which i had posted weren't clear about their eye color. These would fare better
 
 
 
       As you can see that all of them have blue eyes while at the same time they are all Africans as you canjudge by their features.
 
 


Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 23-Feb-2008 at 18:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 19:00
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Strange my sister never seems to mention it.
              That is because she is not an albino and actually has the ability to produce melanin when she really needs it. You may have noticed that peple with light eyes can change their eyes color one time it would be light blue and other time it would become green, as a result of various amount of melanin in their eyes at any one time. The reason is that they can produce melanin when it is really required, unlike an albino which can not prodcue melanin not matter what. An albinos skin colour cannot get dark no matter what, however the skin colour of a non albino can get dark under sunlight and he can tan because he can produce melanin as per his needs.      
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seko12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 19:39
bro stop turning this in to racist thing ^ . it seems your claiming that all europeans are diseased. That is obviously not true. The thing you have to understand is that humans adapt to anykinds of condition. Blue eyes might have started as a mutation thousands of years ago, however because of evolution and adaption it is not considered a mutation anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 19:58
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

the problem here is, blue eye is not blue eye. for example people in the Ukraine (and those in Turkey, Jordan which are mentioned in the article i read) are different blue from those of scandinavia etc. Ukraines have more steel-grey blue-ish eyes and scandinavians have deep sea-blue eyes. to draw a connection bewteen them is nonsense imo.

Umm, I don't think that's correct. I personally know many people with different kind of blue eyes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2008 at 10:29
Originally posted by seko12 seko12 wrote:

bro stop turning this in to racist thing ^ . it seems your claiming that all europeans are diseased. That is obviously not true. The thing you have to understand is that humans adapt to anykinds of condition. Blue eyes might have started as a mutation thousands of years ago, however because of evolution and adaption it is not considered a mutation anymore.
 
     Bro how can this be racist. In these type of topics, as in the case of most scholistic studies, where there are many new angles pondered you should not be so touchy. Europeans are not Albinos, they can tan just fine because unlike albinos they can produce mealnin.
 
         However the abnormality of Albinoism allows us to see the extremities of a situation. The abnormality of Osteoperosis allows us to see that what happens when we have calcium defeciency and how crucial is calcium to our bones. Similarly the abnormality of Albinoism allows us to see that what happens whne we dpon't have any melanin in our eyes, hair and skin which is that our skin turns white, our hair turns blonde and our eyes turn blue. 
 
       Do you consider researchers who say that East Asians are lactose intolerant racist for saying something that the East Asians lack because of their unique circumstances just like European are said to lack melanin because of theirown unique circumstances. 
 
     So the moral of the story is that our eyes are brown because of melanin otherwise they would be blue.
 
         And just like mealnin in the skin is dependent on the climate i.e lack of sunlight, similarly melanin in the eyes is also dependent on climate i.e lack of sunlight and therefore people in sunlight starved climates have blue eyes just as they have fairer skin and light hair because of the absence of melanin.
 
         The number of blue eyes in a population is directly propotional to the lack of  sunlight in their region, simple as that. It exist in perfect propotion all over the world. Africans almost never have blue eyes yet as they go up to north africa people very rarely can have blue eyes and in the extreme north of Africa blue eys are very common. Then in  medeteranian Europe people are predominantly brown eyes yet blue eyes do regularly occur among them. In central Europe people have a much larger incidence of blue eyes and people in the extreme north of Europe have the largest number of blue eyes people in the world. You can observe the same phenomena in west asia and in the subcontinent. There almost does not occur a single region in the world  where this relationship is violoated. 
 
          You certainly don't need any contrived theories explaining that how all blue eyed people are descendent of a single person.
 
            And if push comes to shove this idea has to be said is very very racist. A blue eyed person in Pakistan by this idea has more to do with a blue eys guy in Scandanvia than he has with his fellow brown eyed Pakistanis including persons in his own family. Sparten's blue eyed sister has more relevance to a blue eyed German than she has to his brown eyed brother. Blue eyes in predominantly brown eyed populations exists as natural variation, simple. Classifying people purely on appearance is primarily a European and more specifically Germanic hang up. In my study of history i  have never seen people place so much impotance in appearance as European when they had their day in the sun have. Herodotus in his work "Account of Egypt" while discussing that whether Egyptians have any relation to a particular group says that both of them have dark skin and curly hair but then goes on to say that that does not mean anything as other people other than Egyptians and that group also have those charactertisitcs and you cannot decide anything based just on appearance.              
       
     I also occasionaly run acrosswhite nationalists on the internet who have compiled up a list of people all over the world who have blue eyes and fair skin as well as brown hair such as in western Iran, in northern subcontinent and the like and they have some type of delusions of reuniting these people from all over the world under the ideal of "white bortherhood". 
 
  Well to most of the world these ideas are stupid, and Eurpeans should not impose these type of ideas like this "theory" on us. Blue eyes, white skin and blonde hair occur because of a sun deprived climate the more sun deprived the climate the lighter and more common these features will be, simple nothinhhg more nothing less.


Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 24-Feb-2008 at 10:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 20:47
I think Aelfigu nailed it. Mutations are selected for because they are reproductively advantageous for the species. I northern climates with little light people acquired blue eyes so they can see better? It is plausible, though the exact mechanics of how you see better in low light with blue eyes escapes me.
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