History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedAlbigensian crusades

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Mixcoatl View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4581
Post Options Post Options   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Albigensian crusades
    Posted: 24-Oct-2004 at 16:15
The Albegensian crusade was the war in Southern France in the 13th century against the Cathars. Of course the definition of genocide didn't exist back then, but do you think it can be called a genocide (to modern standards)?
"Some argue that atheism partly stems from a failure to fairly and judiciously consider the facts"
"Atheists deny the existence of Satan, while simultaneously doing his work."

- Conservapedia
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2004 at 16:42

by modern standards yes, it was a persecution of a religious minority...

the wars against the hussites were officially also crusades, since the hussites were also a christian sect.

Back to Top
Scytho-Sarmatian View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 288
Post Options Post Options   Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2004 at 03:32
The Cathars were influenced by Manichaeism, weren't they?
Back to Top
vagabond View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 525
Post Options Post Options   Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 02:54

The Albigensians were a group of Cathars - one of several gnostic groups considered heretics by the Roman Catholic church heirarchy at that time.  The cathars take their name form the Greek katharos - meaning pure. 

One version of the claims against them (Raynaldes - "Annales") says that they held a strong belief in the duality of our universe - that is was split into Good and Evil.  The held that these two worlds were divided into visible (evil) and invisible (good) each created by it's own God.  Hence - all things material were evil as they were created by the Evil God.  The evil God was the author of the Old Testament, the Good author of the New Testament. 

The purest of the group were completely chaste, and vegetarians who refused to eat meat, eggs and cheese.

A synopsis of their beliefscan be found here:

http://www.le-guide.com/catharindex.html

Fragments of their texts and critiques of their order are still available:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/cathar-traditio.html

http://www.gnosis.org/library/cathtx.htm

Jeff Brown's paper "Medieval Dualism & Its Discontents:  A Study Of Cathar Dualism And Its  Eschatological Vision Of Reform" can be found here: 

http://www.brownflower.com/essays/cathar-paper.html

There is a good short sumary of the Albigensian Crusade here:

http://www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/albigens.htm

with links to several other sites - some only en francais

In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
Back to Top
vagabond View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 525
Post Options Post Options   Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 03:09
BTW - I think everyone here knows my feelings on applying modern value judgements to history.  There were many, many events which occurred in history in which huge numbers of people were slain, whole villiages, towns, cities, kingdoms and/or civilizations destroyed.  We must still be wary of applying such modern terms as genocide without first carefully defining terms and stating how the terms will be applied.  We otherwise risk falling into the worst application of anachronism possible.  We must try to travel through history and see events through the eyes of those who were there without carrying 21st century baggage with us.  Without a strict application of the above - every ancient war could be described as a genocide and every ancient ruler described as a war criminal.
In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
Back to Top
vagabond View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 525
Post Options Post Options   Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 03:22

Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian

The Cathars were influenced by Manichaeism, weren't they?

Yes - and - at the same time - no.  Both were Gnostic groups with similar beliefs in dualism - stemming from the same sources and traditions - who  had both  followed quite a different path from mainstream Christianity.  Cathar beliefs adapted themselves to application in the post Roman society of the Mediterranean. The Manichaeans followed traditions that rose in the 3rd century Persia and were strongly influenced by Zoroastrianism - another dualist belief structure where Light is believed to be the source of all Good and darkness the source of all evil.

The Manichaean groups were strictly speaking only the direct followers of the teaching of Mani or Manes:

http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htm

 

In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5952
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 11:34
every ancient war could be described as a genocide and every ancient ruler described as a war criminal.


Is that necessarily a bad thing?
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 13:10
well, what's the purpose of doing so?
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5952
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 13:27
Nothing, but when you go round slaughtering entire villages because the people happen to be on the wrong side, you kind of deserve to be labeled a mass-murdering genocidal maniac, invoking the 'but times were different' crap don't exactly change that.
Besides, whole "viewing things through the eyes of the people who lived then" doesn't cut it, which people, the ruling classes? The soldier? Or the guy who's village just got wiped out and burned to the ground?
There is no simple then and now at play here, there are multiple accounts and viewpoints of a vairety of diverse characters at any event which are brought to life and retold throughout the ages and the exact wording changes to accomadate the language of the day, but the overall story remains the same.
If you were to go back intime to that sole surviving villager, and give him a dictionary, and tell him to underline words that he feels best describe what happened, you can bet your arse genocide will be in there somewhere.

Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 14:00

yeah but why apply rules for a game that has no rules? i mean in the past time everyone did as he felt like. and why are minors not able to be elected president? i mean humans are obviously not born with all abilites yet, they have to learn it, so does humankind...I think it's just unjust to judge ancients and not even knowning them or the reasons. it looks a bit arrognat to judge people fo a different period with the moral of todays world.

Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5952
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 14:16
But yet people do it all the time.
Besides, its a bit shallow to say that morals were fantasticly different back then, they weren't, look at the language used when that Italian town was captured by those knights for hire back in the medival peroid, and slaughered its inhabitants, made all the mroe well known because it was a sizable town (but yet i still manage to forget its name, meh, was in Terry Gilliam's new-ish series), there was outrage and accusations of needless massacre ans the like.
No-one did anything about it of course, few realisticly could, but theres no need to pretend that morals were fantasticly different back then, people tend to not like it when their town is slaughtered, that is just as much true today as it was 10,000 years ago.

Edited by Cywr
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 14:32
yeah, but you're almost putting it like it was that much commonplace back then to me a mass-murder as a ruler...
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5952
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 14:46
It wasn't that common place for rulers to put entire villagers to the sword, but never the less, it would happen from time to time. Yes, the rulers themsevles considered it an acceptable means to an end, but there is no need to pretend everyone back then did.
So what if it means that some 'heros' and 'great leaders' of the past wind up looking like mass murders and war criminals, most imagery of heros is mythical anyways, just individuals who are percieved has having a great impact, for good or ill. It doesn't alter the fact that these indivuduals were 'great' in terms of how infulential they were or how coragous or how competant they were in various fields and endevours so as to be renembered, but it at least puts things in perspective a little.
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 368
Post Options Post Options   Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 15:26

The Albigensians were a group of Cathars - one of several gnostic groups considered heretics by the Roman Catholic church heirarchy at that time 

Hmm.. I think it just a little unprecise - The Albigensians was the usual name given in the XIII century to the all hertics of southern France, no matter if they were really heretics of christian faith (as waldens, arnoldists or petrobrusians) or just anoter faith ( manicheism) as cathars - which have orginated from bogomils and paulicians..as the cathars were the most numerous group the name of Albigensians is most commonly linked with them..



Edited by TJK
Back to Top
vagabond View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 525
Post Options Post Options   Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2004 at 08:34

Hi TJK

You're right - a simplification - yes - therefore imprecise - yes

I'm not sure that anyone would read it if I elaborated on  the differences between the Paulicians (not really gnostic but certainly dualists based in Armenia but several centuries too early for this discussion - 8th - 9th cent), Manichaeans (Persian dualists 3rd - 5th cent - much too early), Waldensians (who were neither gnostic, nor dualists), the Bogomils (who were gnostic dualists based in the Balkans), Cathars (gnostic dualists primarily in the Languedoc area - with beliefs originally based on Bogomil teachings) and/or  Albigensians (any resident of the town of Albi - generalized to any heretic in the south of France). 

There is a good brief discussion of the Cathars in Mircea Eliade's "A History of Religious Ideas - Vol 3: From Muhammad to the Age of Reforms" subsection 294 p. 184 -  188. 

Eliade discusses:

     The basic Cathar beliefs "...God did not create the visible world; matter is impure, marriage, baptism, the Eucharist and confession are useless; the Holy Spirit, descending upon the believer by the iposition of hands, purifies and sanctifies him..."

     The earlest executions of Cathar heretics (28 Dec, 1022)

     Similarities with the Roman liturgy explained by the liturgical tradition of the ancient Christian Church.

     The Fourth Lateran Council:  http://www.dailycatholic.org/history/12ecume1.htm

     The Albigensian Crusade and its consequenses (the unification and expansion of France, the ruin of the meridional civilization, the increased power of the Inquisition, The Synod of Toulouse and eventual reforms encouraging the spread of the Dominicans and Franciscans)

If you are really interested - I'll see if I can find more good links that give further information on the above.

Wikipedia is a start - if also somewhat oversimplified

In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 368
Post Options Post Options   Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2004 at 16:03

Thanks vagabond !

I just start to go a little deeper in this subject and in fact my knowledge about albigensians  is quite limited. The Mircea's book is nearly unknown in Poland but I would like to buy some Fernad Niel's books.

Back to Top
cavalry4ever View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 17-Nov-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 249
Post Options Post Options   Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 11:35

I think murder and genocide are very universal crimes. We are using the sense of ethics and judgment that Western World had inherited from ancient Greek philosophers and expanded upon these values, after Dark Ages had passed.
In the case of crusaders we are dealing with deranged religious zealotry that probably has no parallel in the world history.

Good example from crusades against Cathares is this exchange that took part between commander of crusaders and pope's envoy, after population of some town ran to seek shelter in the local church.
"Sir, I cannot differentiate between ours and heretics.
Pope's envoy: "Commander, do your duty. God will recognize his flock"
Everybody was slaughtered, including non Cathares.
This is quoted from memory, somebody may know original source.


One of Cathare strongholds was based around the city of Carcassonne in the southern France. Museum of torture is an interesting place to visit.



Edited by cavalry4ever
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 15:41
Originally posted by TJK

Thanks vagabond !

I just start to go a little deeper in this subject and in fact my knowledge about albigensians  is quite limited. The Mircea's book is nearly unknown in Poland but I would like to buy some Fernad Niel's books.

Emmanuel Ladurie's books on the heretics of the village of Montaillou are a superb evocation of the atmosphere of the time. They are based on the Vatican archives relating to the heretic trials of the period.

 

 

Back to Top
Exarchus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 763
Post Options Post Options   Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 14:41
Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli

The Albegensian crusade was the war in Southern France in the 13th century against the Cathars. Of course the definition of genocide didn't exist back then, but do you think it can be called a genocide (to modern standards)?


It was a genocide by all mean. In Bezier, when the crusaders took it over, the legate of the pope said:" kill them all, god will recognised his kind". There were about  500 cathars, and 10.000 people got killed. The term Albigensian Crusade, introduced later, is abusive the center core of catharism was Toulouse. The capital of the county of Toulouse.

At the hardest moment of the inquisition (wich was introduced at those times at Saint Sernin in Toulouse), 300 people were burned a day. Yet a few of them survived, now they are only a few,  Georges Jolliot is the only one I know. He is a sculptor (cathars always liked sculpture).

The inquisitors had some form of respect for them, the French inquisitors often said, it's not possible to be more christian than them. Cathars, comes from the word catharos, the pures.

We don't have a lot of records about them (I think only 3, in the Toulouse library), and they are mostly written by the inquisitions. Some people believe that they gave no souls to women, wich is a prejudice, women could be priests in the catharist cults. The "bonnes femmes", now it's a pejorative term to describe a woman we have little respect for.

They were a gnostic cult believing the world was created by and evil god, Demiurge, and that god was the good element helping the corrupted mankind to fight the evil world. They also don't recognised Christ has a material thing but rather as a ghost or a metaphysical representation. Sometimes priests left themself dying of hunger, in order to be the purest man. This is the manicheist/Zoroastraist inspiration.

I love the cathars' castles (though they weren't built by the cathars but by the counts of Toulouse). They had temples though, but they were plundered and destroyed, the closest ones I think about architecture are in Bulgaria, because the bogomils can be considered as the first cathars and their temples are still standing in Bulgaria (see the Rila Monastery).

It should be taken note their treasures was lost after the siege of Montsegur. And also, the original cult of Southern France was arianism and catholicism was introduced much later than the rest of Europe. The Visigothic kings of Toulouse were arianists opposed to the catholic Franks of Paris. They had a giant treasure (sack of Argos, Athens, Delphes and Rome including the relic of Jerusalem). The Templars were said to have a big treasure there too. Funny stories.
 

Edited by Exarchus
Vae victis!
Back to Top
member987 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 15-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote member987 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2005 at 23:20
The Cathars were just one of many gnostic sects brutally masacered and eliminated without mercy, by the Roman Catholic Church. Their only crime; regecting the views of the Roman Catholic Church. What happend to the Cathars, in the Albegensian crusade, was a dispicable thing. The war fought againts them was one of sickening measures taken througout time by the church, in an attempt to eliminate anyone they saw as a threat. The head of all this carnage was Pope Innocent III. Because of him, thousands upon thousand of innocent people were tortured and murdered. His name is ironic.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.