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Forum LockedAhmed Shah Durrani and the Sikhs

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    Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 12:38

The following is an eyewitness account by one Noor Mohommad, a contemporary  of Ahmed Shah Abdali (Durrani) during the latters invasion of 1764.  Noor Mohommad was a resident of Ganjubda, Balochistan who accompanied Nasir Khan in his crusade against the Sikhs. 

Originally posted by Jangnama Jangnama wrote:

Do not call the dogs dogs, because they are lions (and) are courageous like lions in the battlefield. How can a hero, who roars like a lion be called a dog? (Moreover) like lions they spread terror in the field of battle. If you wish to learn the art of war, come face to face with them in the battlefield. They will demonstrate it (art of war) to you in such a way that one and all will shower praise on them.

If you wish to learn the science of war, O swordsman, learn from them. They advance at the enemy boldly and come back safely after action. Understand, Singh is their title, a form of address for them. It is not justice to call them dogs;  if you do not know Hindustani language, then understand that the word 'Singh' means a lion."Truly, they are lion in battle, and at times of peace, they surpass "Hatim" (in generosity ). When they take the Indian sword in their hands they traverse the country from Hind to Sind. None can stand against them in battle, howsoever strong he may be. When they handle the spear, they shatter the ranks of the enemy. When they raise the heads of their spears towa-rds the sky, they would pierce even through the Caucasus (in the process). When the adjust the strings of the bows, place in them the enemy killing arrows (and) pull the strings to their ears, the body of the enemy begins to shiver with fear. When their battle axes fall upon the armour of their opponents, their armour becomes their coffin.

"The body of every one of them is like a piece of rock and in physical grandeur everyone of them is more than fifty men. It is said that Behram Gore killed wild asses and lions. But if he were to come face to face with them even he would bow before them (Singhs). Besides usual arms, they take their guns in hand (and) come into the field of action jumping (and) roaring like lions and raise slogans. They tear asunder the chests of many and shed blood of several (of their enemy) in the dust. You say that musket is a weapon of ancient times, it appears to be a creation of these dpgs rather than Socrates. Who else than these (dogs) can be adept in the use of muskets. They do not bother (even if) there are innumerable muskets. To the right and the left, in front and towards the back, they go on operating hundreds of muskets angrily and regularly."

If you do not believe in what I say, you may enquire of the brave swordsmen who would tell you more than myself and would praise them for their fighting. This bears witness to (my statement) that they faced thirty thousand heroes in the battlefield. If their armies take to flight, it is a war tactics of theirs. They resort to this deception in order to make the angry army grow bold and run in their pursuit. When they find them separated from the main body and away from help and reinforcement, they at once turn back and fight more ferociously (literal translation - they set fire even to water).

"Did you not see that while fighting the Pathans, they took to flight which was deceptive. A world famous wrestler wielding high esteem and respect alight-ed from his horse and showed his great style as if he were Tuhmatan ( a great warrior of Iran). O valiant fighter, do justice to their (act of ) war. One of their armies invaded Multan and put the city to plunder and devastation and killed many of its inhabitants and carried away an immense booty. I am not sufficiently strong in mind to express what the dogs did there. But as God willed it, each of us has to submit to His Will."

Besides their fighting, listen to one more thing in which they excell all other warriors. They never kill a coward who is running away from the battlefield. They do not rob a woman of her wealth or ornaments whether she is rich or a servant ("Kaneez"). There is no adultry among these dogs, nor are they mischieveous people. A woman, whether young or old, they call a "Burhi". The word Burhi, means in Indian language, an old lady. There is no thief amongst these dogs, nor is there amongst them any mean people. They do not keep company with adulters and house thiefs though all their acts may not be commendable."

If you are not acquainted with their religion, I tell you that the Sikhs are the disciples of the Guru - that glorious Guru lived at Chak (Amritsar). The ways and manners of these people were laid down by Nanak who showed these Sikhs a separate path. He was succeeded by Guru Gobind Singh from whom they received the title of Singh. They are not part of the Hindus, who have a separate religion of their own. "Now that you have familiarised yourself with the behaviour of the Sikhs, you may also know something about their country. They have divided the Punjab amongst themselves and have bestowed it upon every young and old.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 22:32

Originally posted by Jangnama Jangnama wrote:

If you are not acquainted with their religion, I tell you that the Sikhs are the disciples of the Guru - that glorious Guru lived at Chak (Amritsar). The ways and manners of these people were laid down by Nanak who showed these Sikhs a separate path. He was succeeded by Guru Gobind Singh from whom they received the title of Singh. They are not part of the Hindus, who have a separate religion of their own. "Now that you have familiarised yourself with the behaviour of the Sikhs, you may also know something about their country. They have divided the Punjab amongst themselves and have bestowed it upon every young and old.

GURDWARA HEMKUNT SAHIB

A rare sunny day at Hemkunt Sahib

Gurdwara Sri Hemkunt Sahib in October

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Originally posted by Qazi Noor Mohommad <EM>(Jangnama) Qazi Noor Mohommad (Jangnama) wrote:

If you wish to learn the science of war, O swordsman, learn from them. They advance at the enemy boldly and come back safely after action.

GATKA - This video shows some aspects of Shastra Vidya, an Indian Martial Art now kept alive by the Khalsa Akali Nihangs (Baptized Army of God). 

From the time of British Occupation of the Punjab, Khalsa Sikh fighting skills came to be wrongly termed as 'Gatka’.  Gatka, under the British, became ritualistic and a sport, having lost its lethal aspect ‘Chatka’. It is no longer a military system, just as the Sikhism of the British Raj era, it was no longer the free fierce Sikhism of Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji.  The British had tried to subdue the last fierce opposers to their rule, the Akali Nihangs, whom they tried to exterminate.  These Akalis were the Masters of true Sanatan Sikh Shastra Vidya.

‘It is sad now Sikhs no longer consider Shastar Vidiya their national art they just consider it the art of soldiers as the deed of soldiers. The tenth father has instructed that each Sikh be a complete soldier and train in Shastar Vidiya.’
(‘Gurmat Martand’, Kahn Singh Nabha (1938) Pa. 110)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 11:58

Dear Rajput,
I really don't know what you want to clearify here, but if you are trying to let us know how powerfull the Indians were then I would like to say simply that; "I don't think there are much people who knows Qazi Noor Mohommad."
Even I haven't heard of his name as long as I know.
Beside I am sure you know who Alexander the Great was (in cause you don't then click here), here is what he says about how powerfull the Afghans were (and ARE).



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Originally posted by Rajput Rajput wrote:

GATKA - This video shows some aspects of Shastra Vidya, an Indian Martial Art now kept alive by the Khalsa Akali Nihangs (Baptized Army of God). 

Thanx for the Video Rajput.I searched for some information on Nihangs.

Quote

Nihang is a Persian word meaning crocodile. Nihangs were suicide squads of the Mughal army and wore blue uniforms. The Sikhs took the name and the uniform from the Mughals. Nihangs constitute an order of Sikhs who, abandoning the fear of death, are ever ready for martyrdom and remain unsullied by worldly possessions. A Nihang is one who has nothing and is free from anxiety. The order is said to have been founded by Guru Gobind Singh himself as a fighting body of the Khalsa. The Nihangs were also called Akalis (servitors of the Timeless God) which term has now become synonymous with the members of a political party in Punjab. (Most of them wear blue turbans).

Nihangs can be recognized from a distance as they wear dark blue robes with their legs bare below the knees and high blue and yellow turbans laced with steel discs. They usually carry spears, swords, daggers and shields. They use a charming vocabulary of Braggadocio, which has found its way into the Punjabi language.

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/movements/Nihangs/Nihangs.htm

Would you like to share some information on origin of Nihangs.



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Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Beside I am sure you know who Alexander the Great was (in cause you don't then click here), here is what he says about how powerfull the Afghans were (and ARE).

Dear Gharanai,

Nice to have your participation in this thread.You are one of the most polite members on this forum.Indians know who Alexander was.This thread is not about Alexander.

I respect Afghans for not only their bravery but more importantly their honesty.Let us discuss Alexander and his experiences in South Asia in another thead.

Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

I really don't know what you want to clearify here, but if you are trying to let us know how powerfull the Indians were then I would like to say simply that; "I don't think there are much people who knows Qazi Noor Mohommad."

This is a history forum and all the members are here to discuss history in general not necessarily clarify things.Having said that,even I don't know who Qazi Noor Mohammad was.I  request Rajput to throw some light on this matter.

 



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[QUOTE=Apples n Oranges]

Dear Gharanai,

Nice to have your participation in this thread.You are one of the most polite members on this forum.Indians know who Alexander was.This thread is not about Alexander.

[quote]

Dear Apples & Oranges,
First of all thanks for those comments and afterward I really din't ment Indians by using the word "you" but only I was refering to Rajput, so if that has in any was hurt you or any other Indian I am sorry for it as I didn't mean it.

 



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Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Dear Rajput,
I really don't know what you want to clearify here, but if you are trying to let us know how powerfull the Indians were then I would like to say simply that; "I don't think there are much people who knows Qazi Noor Mohommad."

Even I haven't heard of his name as long as I know.
Beside I am sure you know who Alexander the Great was (in cause you don't then click here), here is what he says about how powerfull the Afghans were (and ARE).

Even more of a reason to put this thread up here since I think its always better to hear praises from the horses mouth.  And just for the record I do know who Alekshandru was, he was an invader who did not cross the Beas into the Gangetic valley.  Now do you know who Ruksana was?

PS.  What does this thread have to do with afghans besides the fact that a Baloch is praising the sikhs?   

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Qazi Noor Mohommad, son of Abdullah Hilwar of Ganjuba, was a chronicler who accompanied Nasir Khan (Chieftan hailing from Brahoi-Baloch in Kalat, Balochistan).  Ahmad Shah Durrani authorized Nasir Khan to keep the local ruling and was asked in return to support the Afghans in their wars, and also to not take sides with the Afghan enemies. Qazi Noor Mohommad compiled his Jangnama which consisted of 55 beyanas (statements) about all the different peoples that Durrani and his 'crusaders' had encountered during his invasion of 1764.

Originally posted by Apples n Oranges Apples n Oranges wrote:

This is a history forum and all the members are here to discuss history in general not necessarily clarify things.

Thanks for clearing that up Apples and ofcourse I've posted this thread regarding not just to shed some light about the Sikhs, but I would like to start discussions on Shastra Vidya (Indian Martial Arts) with various members of different Indian cultures on here to reflect on similarties in styles etc.  The Sikhs, it so happens, still uphold this style of Martial Arts in their everyday lives and are not the only ones amongst the Indians. The Tamils practice their Kalaripayattu and the Rajputs uphold their martial customs and so do the Jats and Gujjars.

Quote Would you like to share some information on origin of Nihangs.

I will elaborate more on them, but for now let me say that the original 5 Nihangs of Guru Gobind Singh were from all parts of India, North, South, East and West and were each from the 4 castes, abolishing the caste system indefinitely.

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The sikhs are a brave and formidable enemy who deserve respect. However Rajput their skills are not limited to religion and you can find many such examples of warrior peoples in the western subcontinent.
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Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

The sikhs are a brave and formidable enemy who deserve respect.  However Rajput their skills are not limited to religion and you can find many such examples of warrior peoples in the western subcontinent.

I have no doubt that there are, were and probably will be warrior peoples in the Western subcontinent and neither have I refuted this; I recall the story behind the Panjsher area of Afghanistan, but lets stay on topic of the Jangnama.

When you write that 'their skills are not limited to religion' elaborate on that, what exactly are you trying to say?  The people in the video are Nihang Sikhs and everything they endeavour in, revolves around their religion.  Take their martial art for instance, it was becoming extinct in North India until the 6th Guru revived translations of old vedic scriptures.  Noor Muhommad tries to play the religion card by labeling them as kafirs etc. if you read the Jangnama thoroughly.

I'm taking Noor Mohommads beyan about Sikhs and trying to decipher what he is referring to in every particular comment he makes of them. For example he mentions great swordsmanship and to compliment that I put up the Gatka video.  Noor Mohommad himself in his particular writings about Sikhs limits them to their religion because the fact is that the sikh religion was on the rise and the afghans and baloch wanted to subdue it; truth of the matter is that the sikhs are and were a composition of various religions, ethnicities and races who converted into Sikhism.  Its obvious from his writings that he's biased against them still none the less I find his particular writing a priceless peace of literature for historical purposes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 07:41
Originally posted by Rajput Rajput wrote:

Now do you know who Ruksana was?

First of all I am glad that you did know who Alexander was afterwards,
Ruksana or Roxana was wife of Alexander the Great. She was the daughter of Oxyartes, a Bactrian baron, and Alexander married her (327 BC) to consolidate his power in Bactria as the people didn't accepted him until he married the princess of Bactrai. She and Alexander's posthumous son, Alexander IV, were, after Alexander's death, embroiled in the wars of the Diadochi and were imprisoned by Cassander at Amphipolis in Macedonia. They were later killed.

Now that you once again as usual started pointing out women, could you please tell me what happend to 6000 indian women in the battle of panipat? (To all other Indian fellows I am sorry for pointing this out but it's something what Rajput has started up), and dear Rajput I am sure you know the difference between a WIFE and a SEX Slave.

Quote PS.  What does this thread have to do with afghans besides the fact that a Baloch is praising the sikhs?   

I would like to inform you that; as Marathas and Sikhs are Indians the same Balochs and Pashtuns are Afghans, so I guess now you know what Baloch had to do with Afghans.

 



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Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Ruksana or Roxana was wife of Alexander the Great. She was the daughter of Oxyartes, a Bactrian baron, and Alexander married her (327 BC) to consolidate his power in Bactria as the people didn't accepted him until he married the princess of Bactrai.

Well that is a nice story and if that is what makes you sleep better at night, then by all means it is sufficient.  But, there is another side to this Roxana, Afghan woman from around Mazaar-e-Shareef (compliments to your map which perfectly highlights the bactrian kingdom) only presented herself to Alekshandru after the latter had killed her father in a war, what a nazranaa!

Quote Now that you once again as usual started pointing out women, could you please tell me what happend to 6000 indian women in the battle of panipat? (To all other Indian fellows I am sorry for pointing this out but it's something what Rajput has started up), and dear Rajput I am sure you know the difference between a WIFE and a SEX Slave.

It's funny how you forget to mention that amongst those taken slaves there were BOYS!!!!!! ,would you like to educate the board about these customs Gharnanai of should I?  Anyways this perfectly somehow ties into the thread since those slaves were freed by Jassa Singh Alhuwalia (Sikh leader of the Khalsa and an Akali Nihang) after which he was given the title of Bandhi Chor (Liberator). 

Quote I would like to inform you that; as Marathas and Sikhs are Indians the same Balochs and Pashtuns are Afghans, so I guess now you know what Baloch had to do with Afghans.

I'll disagree with you there also because most Brahui are different from their afghan neighbors.  In Balochistan there are some areas with hazara and pashtun inhabitants but for the most part, the Jangnama above refers to the Brahui and Baloch peoples of (Kelat, Pakistan); Nasir Khan was a Brahui and they are completely different from afghans, pashtuns and hazara.  Recently Brahui have started to intermarry with baloch  but for the most part they are distinguishable by their dravidian looks and languages.  Approximately 2 million Brahuis in Pakistan, 200,000 in Afghanistan and sprinkle in Iran (border areas of Zaedan).

PS. Gharanai take your hate mongering to another thread and I promise you I will continue with you there but this thread is for the Jangnama, gharanai baba not your personal vendetta against sikhs or indians.

 



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Originally posted by Rajput Rajput wrote:

Well that is a nice story and if that is what makes you sleep better at night, then by all means it is sufficient.  But, there is another side to this Roxana, Afghan woman from around Mazaar-e-Shareef (compliments to your map which perfectly highlights the bactrian kingdom) only presented herself to Alekshandru after the latter had killed her father in a war, what a nazranaa!

Dear first of all I would like to clearify you that Roxana was not an Afghan but a Bactrian (at that time only pashtuns were called Afghans, where Roxana wasn't one). And the story you mentioned, well maybe it's told to you guys so that to make you brave enough to stand infront of an Afghan, and not be a nazranaa to them as you were then...

Quote It's funny how you forget to mention that amongst those taken slaves there were BOYS!!!!!! ,would you like to educate the board about these customs Gharnanai of should I?

Well dear, actually I did know about that fact as well but didn't wanted to mention it over here but now that you have started I would like to say; YES, it's true that even your BOYS were not save so their families didn't wanted to send them to the battle field not for getting killed but for getting raped. You are right, homosexuality is a fact that could not be hidden, this custom is mostly practiced by Pashtuns and Balochs of South and West of Afghanistan (but only by below average number of them). But it's limited to males only, now could you give some information regarding the homosexuality of females in India, I am sure that most of our forum fellows (from India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Banglasdesh and other round countries) have heard about movies like "Fire" and "Girlfriend".

So, I have elaborated your question now looking toward your answer...

Quote Anyways this perfectly somehow ties into the thread since those slaves were freed by Jassa Singh Alhuwalia (Sikh leader of the Khalsa and an Akali Nihang) after which he was given the title of Bandhi Chor (Liberator). 

Yes, they were freed but only after they were tortured and all those other actions were done to them, if you don't believe me check the net for it this is what Answers.com say;

Originally posted by Answers.com Answers.com wrote:

 Abdali's soldiers took about 22,000 women and young children and brought them to their camps. The women were raped in the camp, Many committed suicide because of constant rapes perpetrated on them. All of the prisoners were exchanged or sold as sex slaves to Afghanistan or North India, transported on bullock carts, camels and elephants in bamboo cages.

Link

I personally am really against this action, but we are talking about the past and it could not be changed, so dear facts matter alot, show me to believe you!



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Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Dear first of all I would like to clearify you that Roxana was not an Afghan but a Bactrian (at that time only pashtuns were called Afghans, where Roxana wasn't one). And the story you mentioned, well maybe it's told to you guys so that to make you brave enough to stand infront of an Afghan, and not be a nazranaa to them as you were then...

Thats completely pathetic man, Ruksana was the daughter of the chieftan of Mazar-e-Shareef, how can you tell me that this city was not part of Afghanistan?  After Ruksana the next 'great' king offered himself as a nazrana to Alekshandru....Ambhi (Omphis) of Taxila (Taxila comprised present day NWFP and some of north western Punjab) the only real warfare Alekshandru saw was from Porus (Purushotum of the Paurava Dynasty).

Quote Well dear, actually I did know about that fact as well but didn't wanted to mention it over here but now that you have started I would like to say; YES, it's true that even your BOYS were not save so their families didn't wanted to send them to the battle field not for getting killed but for getting raped. You are right, homosexuality is a fact that could not be hidden, this custom is mostly practiced by Pashtuns and Balochs of South and West of Afghanistan (but only by below average number of them).

Give me a break man the numbers are much more higher than just 'below average' gharanai baba...lol  here read for yourself : 

 http://www.globalgayz.com/g-afghanistan.html

Quote now could you give some information regarding the homosexuality of females in India, I am sure that most of our forum fellows (from India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Banglasdesh and other round countries) have heard about movies like "Fire" and "Girlfriend".

Yea they have and unfortunately it depicts one Shabana Azmi portraying the role of one of the women, but what do these movies (fiction) have to do with our topic?  By all means if that was an attempt by you to somehow portray something i'll let you know that go add up the total population of Indians in the world and then divide the # of these cases by it.  Now you do the same amongst the men in your country...but do read that article throughly first!

Originally posted by Answers.com Answers.com wrote:

 Abdali's soldiers took about 22,000 women and young children and brought them to their camps. The women were raped in the camp, Many committed suicide because of constant rapes perpetrated on them. All of the prisoners were exchanged or sold as sex slaves to Afghanistan or North India, transported on bullock carts, camels and elephants in bamboo cages.

Answers.com??? hahahaha    answers.com gets its information from wikipedia man!!!  seriously go read a book but yea the number of women and BOYS that were abducted were more around 6,000 not 22,000 lol you are quite amusing Gharanai is this your attempt at redemption??
 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 10:25

Well firstly I really don't want to discuss the Roxana issue anymore as both of us have different point of view about them, still if you at any moment want to discuss it I would be there to accompany you.

Secondly I guess the website you provided also contains data about the Indian gays ( http://www.globalgayz.com/g-india.html) so why don't you just try that one as well and you say to check the number of gays in Afghanistan, hah well I guess the number of gays and lesbians only in India is equal to 1/3 of our entire population . So I don't think comparing those numbers will help you in any case.

On the other hand, there is nothing named "GAY RIGHTS" in my country which means this act is not publicly allowed and the government is strictly against it and the person who does it (if caught) is badly punished ( Even Killed ), this act is now adays getting populer and that's why we Afghans hate the AMERICAN TYPE DEMOCRACY.

On the other hand, in India though Homosexuality is illegal and can carry a 10-year sentence, gays are still provided security and is may acted in public and there is very few cases that they have been punished, beside all this most of the well-known Indian Celebrities fight for Gay Rights (interesting  )... And finaly those Indian Gay Activists hahahha what do you say about them, could you find such an example from my country (someone fighting for the rights of Gay) hahaah ?


Gay men in India are slowly becoming more confident in public


Vikram works for Gay Bombay, a group that helps create "safe space" for gays

Indian National Gay Conference (YAARIAN ‘99)

India's celebrities speak up for gay rights 

Indian gay ban may be reversed

"Parents say it's a passing phase and once (my son) is married it will pass. They say I don't want him to be criminalized. Many of them end up living a dual life."

For more news click here


 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 10:56

Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Well firstly I really don't want to discuss the Roxana issue anymore as both of us have different point of view about them, still if you at any moment want to discuss it I would be there to accompany you.

So in other words you dont want to finish what you started?  JI told you to set up a separate thread for this jargon as it has nothing whatsoever to do with Sikhs nor the Jangnama of Noor Mohommad.

Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

 hah well I guess the number of gays and lesbians only in India is equal to 1/3 of our entire population . So I don't think comparing those numbers will help you in any case.

The total # in India figures around 50 - 70 million (approximately 5-7%) of the total population...1/3 would mean 33% baba.  And compare this ratio with a % ratio of 15-50% of afghans having been involved in this 'act'.  Now what does that tell you statistically?

Quote On the other hand, in India though Homosexuality is illegal and can carry a 10-year sentence, gays are still provided security and is may acted in public and there is very few cases that they have been punished,

Homosexuality is against the Hindu religion and forewarns of the end of the world.  In India it is also taboo to kill a homosexual, it is considered lowly for a mardaan (man) to kill or assault a na-mard (homosexual), yet you see it and hear of it all the time. 

 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 13:23
Originally posted by Rajput Rajput wrote:

So in other words you dont want to finish what you started?  JI told you to set up a separate thread for this jargon as it has nothing whatsoever to do with Sikhs nor the Jangnama of Noor Mohommad.

Dear I guess you didn't read completely what I had written, I said if you WISH, so it looks that you don't so bring it up I am here to answer any type of your question regarding Roxana. Lets see what you have got...

Quote The total # in India figures around 50 - 70 million (approximately 5-7%) of the total population...1/3 would mean 33% baba.  And compare this ratio with a % ratio of 15-50% of afghans having been involved in this 'act'.  Now what does that tell you statistically?

Well if we check it statistically, I completely agree with you that Afghans out numbers Indians, and the major reasons for this is:

  1. Number of conquests on foriegn lands and maintaining relations with the prisoners of war (POWs) which is unfortunate.
  2. The restriction of religion on men who can not have any sort of unlawful contact with females, so most of them try to have homo-relations, which is more a sin than having an unlawful relation with a female in ISLAM (the person who does it has to stand on 40 bricks under rain and shall stand there until all 40 bricks don't melt out, then he could be forgiven).
  3. War time, which took most men in to the mountains where there was no women.

So dear considering those above points, now tell me what reasons are there for those 50-70 million (around twice the total population of Afghanistan which is 29,928,987 (July2005)) gays in India, I don't think that there is such sort of restrictions on them or maybe there are ????

Secondly, thanks for calling me baba (as we use this word for someone whom we respect), in response I guess I shall call you bacha which is the perfect match for that relation... So Rajput bacha keep the good work on, to be honest I really enjoy argueing with you as I gain more and more information about the friend country India so wish you are doing the same bacha...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 16:31
How did the topic divert to homosexuality? 
The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 17:18

Originally posted by Afghanan Afghanan wrote:

How did the topic divert to homosexuality? 

Well dear Afghanan,
It all begun with Rajput pointing out that not only Indian women but men were too abused and raped during the 3rd Battle of Panipat...



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