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Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: African phenotypes
    Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 15:26
regarding the different "types" of Jews and their integration in Israel, I opened a thread about this a few months ago.
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=25940

I used to know a French girl of Sephardic Jewish origin whose family was originated expelled from Spain and then fled to Morroco, and her grandparents emigrated from Morocco (who was a French colony at the time) to mainland France.
The irony is that she's one of the most anti-Muslim French people I've ever met. She even went as far as saying that she agrees with eveything of Jean Marie LePen apart from his anti-semetism.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 15:28
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila

Well that's not entirely correct since Ethiopia and Eritrea are ethnically heterogeneous countries consisting of several distinct ethnic groups. The Afars, Sahos, HararisOromos and the Bejas all resemble the Somalis to such an extant that you probably would have a hard time distinguishing them from one another. Amongst the Highlanders you have the Tigrinyas, Amharas, Gurages, Tigres and Beta Israelis who even I have a problem differentiating from one another. In general all of these ethnic groups overlap in terms of 'looks' and skincolor throughout the region. In a average Somali family you could find a very light brother and a very dark sister and then again a very light sister and a very dark brother which shows that even amongst siblings you will see diversity in skincolor. 



How do all these ethnic groups relate to each other? Do they each occupy a different territory or do they all live together.
In the cities, for example, how to they integrate as part of the same Somali society while at the same time maintaining their identity?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 15:40
Originally posted by calvo

Originally posted by Prince of Zeila

Well that's not entirely correct since Ethiopia and Eritrea are ethnically heterogeneous countries consisting of several distinct ethnic groups. The Afars, Sahos, HararisOromos and the Bejas all resemble the Somalis to such an extant that you probably would have a hard time distinguishing them from one another. Amongst the Highlanders you have the Tigrinyas, Amharas, Gurages, Tigres and Beta Israelis who even I have a problem differentiating from one another. In general all of these ethnic groups overlap in terms of 'looks' and skincolor throughout the region. In a average Somali family you could find a very light brother and a very dark sister and then again a very light sister and a very dark brother which shows that even amongst siblings you will see diversity in skincolor. 



How do all these ethnic groups relate to each other?
 
*Genetically
*Linguistically
*History
*Religion
*Cultural diffusion
 
Do they each occupy a different territory or do they all live together.
 
Somalia - Somalis,Oromos, Bonis, Boranas
Eritrea - Bejas, Sahos, Tigres, Tigrinyas
Ethiopia - Amharas, Tigrinyas, Afars, Somalis, Agaws, Beta Israelis
Djibouti - Somalis, Afars

In the cities, for example, how to they integrate as part of the same Somali society while at the same time maintaining their identity?
 
Somalia is a very homogenous country with small minorities of Indians,Pakistanis,Arabs, Bantus and Ethiopians, so you could compare Somalia with a homogenous country like Holland while Ethiopia is more like China in terms of ethnic diversity. Each ethnic group has historically occupied it's own territory wether in the form of a Kingdom,empire or state. In modern times this is still the same to a considerable extant but now also live in the larger cities of their respective countries. I don't think they have a problem maintaining their own identities because they display their heritage quite proudly wether through commerce(cuisine/clothing) or simply conversing in their own languages 


Edited by Prince of Zeila - 26-Mar-2009 at 15:42
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Post Options Post Options   Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 16:13
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila

Salaam/Greetings!
 
Goldenstar the Rashaidas are a very interesting people because they keep to themselves and are very mysterious. I think their migration had something to do with the Ottomans.  BTW there are also full blooded Arabs and descendants of Arabs in Somali port cities like Merka and Barawa


Hello dear,

I do not know a lot of things about them, but they immediately seemed mysterious to me when I saw their pictures.

Even if it is rare, the map of the Ottoman Empire sometimes includes parts of the Horn of Africa, so your idea may be true, Ottomans also controled the part of Yemen that is on the strait of Bab El Mandab until the Arab revolt expelled them during World War I, supported by British troops.





However, I don't know if they really ruled there as they did in the Arab Middle-East.

Because in the Maghrebi countries (besides totally independent Morocco), they had only a nominal title of rulers starting in the 16th century as queen of England does with Canada, Australia, and many other countries in the world. But Algeria (which placed itself under Ottoman vassality to get support to expel Spanish invaders from a few ports), Tunisia, and Libya, were virtually independent besides they cooperated with Turks in their common struggle against the common Christian ennemy, which were the Spanish Habsburgs at the time of Emperor Charles V, ennemy of both Ottoman Sultan Soliman the Magnificant in his Eastern European borders, and of Maghrebi countries close to his Spanish possessions.




Edited by goldenstar - 26-Mar-2009 at 16:53
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Post Options Post Options   Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 17:21
Originally posted by calvo

regarding the different "types" of Jews and their integration in Israel, I opened a thread about this a few months ago.
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=25940

I used to know a French girl of Sephardic Jewish origin whose family was originated expelled from Spain and then fled to Morroco, and her grandparents emigrated from Morocco (who was a French colony at the time) to mainland France.
The irony is that she's one of the most anti-Muslim French people I've ever met.


Perhaps she wasn't serious and wanted to get attention by sounding anti-Muslim in the eyes of a potentially Islamophobic Christian European, I know so many Arabs and Jews who like to pretend they're racist and hate each other but then they magically meet each other with fraternalism: "We're brothers, we're the same people, cousins from Ishmael and Isaac*!!!" .. bla, bla bla... LOL

* In the Jewish/Christian Bibles and the Quran, Ishmael is the ancestor of ancient Northern Arabia's tribes (the Arabian Ismaelites) while his younger brother Isaac is the forefather of the ancient Israelites, both being the Hebrews from their father Abraham came from today Southern Iraq (Chaldea) with his family.
Of course it is an over-simplification to say Arabs and Jews are cousins as Christians, Muslims, and Jews often assume, because Ishmaelites were restricted to Northern Arabia and are not the ancestors of all modern Arabs (especially not those of Palestine, which is not Arabia, and not those of Morocco or Algeria), same for ancient Israelites, who are not necessarilly the ancestors of all modern Jews, not those of the Falashas for instance. Plus it is only religious beliefs, their existence in this context is not historical facts.


Algerians do what I described above with Moroccans and vice versa, and then they meet each other. My own parents do this with Moroccans and Jews, and many Jews I know told me their parents are exactly the same, my mother always criticises Moroccans and says how evil they are, yet she always sleeps at her Moroccan friend's house and is best friend with her. Mediterraneans are not as simple as Northern Europeans, they are ambigue it seems... LOL

I don't mean there is no hatred, but it is not real hatred in most cases, it is certainly not the deep racial hatred and disgust of some White people against Jews and Muslims (the anti-Christian equivalents are Muslim integrists and Jewish fanatics), only futile rivalry. Maghrebi Jews and Muslims are not really hostile to each other, besides the conflict in Palestine is a real source of tension.

My mother's doctor since more than 20 years is a Moroccan Jewish woman, and her parents still live in Morocco where she visits them sometimes. What is true is Jews from from Arab lands are more hostile than those from the West, but they're closer culturally and thus warmer.

Middle-Eastern Jews have an identity crises in Israel because they're extremely different from European Jews culturally, a Jew from Yemen or Iraq is basically the same as Arabs, and a common religion with a Jew from Germany or Russia wouldn't significantly change the situation, but the new generations there seem to have less problems than the past ones.

She even went as far as saying that she agrees with eveything of Jean Marie LePen apart from his anti-semetism.


Extremist Muslims also agree on Le Pen's claims against Jews, besides his Islamophobia, and I personally think he is right about many topics, including the fact France has a right to give its own citizens more rights that it gives to foreigners, and to expell illegal immigrants. People here are used to find it shocking as the medias program them to think this way, but in Arabic countries and probably elsewhere they think the same way, it is legitimate to stop people who enter your land illegally, whether they live in misery or not, a good example is sub-Saharan people entering Algeria and Morocco illegally through the Sahara. People feel compassion for them, but would not accept to waste their money to support them while they already have their own problems.

I also totally agree with him in his endless struggle for freedom of speech, he was condemned many timesby French and German tribunals for his claims about history. It is terrible how freedom of speech is forbidden in France, one cannot tell his opinion in history if it contradicts that of the government without being sued in tribunals. I would mention the fact one can insult Islam and Christianity while it is not allowed to do the same for Judaism, but what's more serious is the government and individuals glorify in public and in laws genocidal colonial regimes that destroyed millions of lives on the pretext it contributed to develop humanity, while if one says he likes the German empire of the 40s and the way it was very great in bringing dignity and modernity back to Germany, no to mention the inventions it created and the essential advances and inovations it made in sciences, he is demonised and considered to be a criminal with no morality.

One has to follow the government's rules of which dictator or brutal regimes can be glorified or not, Napoleon is ok, Jules Ferry too (respected French politician, lesser known for being an active idoeologist of colonialism who declared at the parliament "superior races have right over inferior races, a right to civilise inferior races..."), even genocidal Stalin or less terrible Franco are ok, it is not shocking to glorify American president Truman and his genocide against Japanese civilians either, but Hitler or anyone involving the suffering of Jews has to be forcibly hated in France.

Of course I support none of these bloody tyrans, but I believe people have the right to think the way they want, and if some think gas chambers did not exist, or think that French colonialism in Africa was a good thing and did not involve the mass killing of children and women, or that native Americans were never abused, because it happened centuries or decades ago and they do not believe what medias told to them (not surprising considering they often fake reality about many topics), it is their right.  Why someone who thinks only 3 million Jews died in WWII would be forced by a government to think 6 million died (it doesn't reflect my personal opinion, it is an example)? If some people sincerely think their thoughts sincerely, they should not be put in prison for not adhering to other people's versions of history, and if a society says specific laws have to etablish limits in freefom of speech then such limits should be created with total objectivity and coherence, not on the basis of personal opinions and ideologies of what's good or evil (French colonialism in Africa and Asia = good and helpful, German imperialism in France = evil and worthless).

The bad side with Jean-Marie Le Pen is he has a hypocritical personality because he wants to defend those rights for his nation claiming he respects all people in the world but only want others to respect his and its identity, while he still implies it was legitimate to conquer and colonise other people to force them to adopt alien cultures, which is reflected by the fact he is always upset and almost cries when telling on T.V shows how "the empire of France was cowardly abandoned by French politicians to terrorists" (Algerian War, War of Indochina, etc).




Edited by goldenstar - 26-Mar-2009 at 19:06
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Amir100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 21:31
I know a bit about the language of the horn of africa and those who speak a semetic langauge are in the minority in the horn of africa. they number on 25%. here a list of semetic language in Ethiopia

Amharic - the official language of ethiopia - spoken by most people in the northwest of ethiopia

Tigranya- the unofficial language of Eriteria, it said that 50 of the population of Eriteria speak Tigranya, it spoken in extreme north of ethiopia and 1/3 of eriteria

Tigri- this groups make up the other half of the semetic speak of eriteria their language is similair to Tigranya.

Gurage- this language is found to the south of ethiopia, south of Blue nile which the ethiopians call the Abbay.

Harari- this langauge is spoken only in the walled city of Harar in northeast ethiopia

Arabic - spoken some ethnic groups in horn mostly Arabs from the other side of the red sea. by ethnic Jabertis and the Rashida ( ethnic arabs from south Arabia settled in Eretria a 150 years ago.


Cushtic languages in the horn of africa
Beja and related language groups they live to the far west in Eriteria

Canfar- language of the Afar spoken on the far northeast of ethiopia and along the border between Eriteria and Djabuti

Sidamo - is spoken in the south of ethiopia

Hadiya - spoken to the south of ethiopia

Kanso, Kambata, Waylate etc etc etc all kushitic language in the far south of ethiopia

the most most wide spread Kushitic language are afan oromo and af-Somalia

Afan-oromo is spoken in ethiopia and northern kenya in ethiopia this ethnic group make up 40 of the population of ethiopia.

Af-Somalia is spoken in ethiopia, Kenya, Somalia and Djabuti.

to the far south of ethiopia are omantic languages like Kafa, Sherka, Gomo etc etc etc

on the border with Sudan are ethiopians more related to southern sudaness than other ethiopians and other ethnic groups from the horn of africa their languages are Nilo-Sahalians in origin.



Edited by Amir100 - 26-Mar-2009 at 21:32
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Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 21:38
Perhaps she wasn't serious and wanted to get attention by sounding anti-Muslim in the eyes of a potentially Islamophobic Christian European, I know so many Arabs and Jews who like to pretend they're racist and hate each other but then they magically meet each other with fraternalism: "We're brothers, we're the same people, cousins from Ishmael and Isaac*!!!" .. bla, bla bla...
 
She was kind of strange because when she told us that her family originally came from Morocco, everyone automatically assumed that she was an Arab-Muslim, until she made rather radical comments against Islam and how Europe should defend itself from the "Muslim invasion"; and how her native France has been destroyed by the North African Muslim immigration.Confused  
 
What you said about LePen is interesting. He has a very bad reputation here in Spain.
Yet I heard that a fair percentage of FN votes come from French citizens of African and Carribean descent.
Many years ago I did meet a black Frenchman whose family came from the Carribean, who told me that many of his family members vote FN. Confused
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 21:49
Here are a few photos of Eritreans. As I said before, many of them are almost "white".
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 22:35
Originally posted by goldenstar

Originally posted by Prince of Zeila

Salaam/Greetings!
 
Goldenstar the Rashaidas are a very interesting people because they keep to themselves and are very mysterious. I think their migration had something to do with the Ottomans.  BTW there are also full blooded Arabs and descendants of Arabs in Somali port cities like Merka and Barawa


Hello dear,

I do not know a lot of things about them, but they immediately seemed mysterious to me when I saw their pictures.

Even if it is rare, the map of the Ottoman Empire sometimes includes parts of the Horn of Africa, so your idea may be true, Ottomans also controled the part of Yemen that is on the strait of Bab El Mandab until the Arab revolt expelled them during World War I, supported by British troops.





However, I don't know if they really ruled there as they did in the Arab Middle-East.

Because in the Maghrebi countries (besides totally independent Morocco), they had only a nominal title of rulers starting in the 16th century as queen of England does with Canada, Australia, and many other countries in the world. But Algeria (which placed itself under Ottoman vassality to get support to expel Spanish invaders from a few ports), Tunisia, and Libya, were virtually independent besides they cooperated with Turks in their common struggle against the common Christian ennemy, which were the Spanish Habsburgs at the time of Emperor Charles V, ennemy of both Ottoman Sultan Soliman the Magnificant in his Eastern European borders, and of Maghrebi countries close to his Spanish possessions.


 
They did rule modern Eritrea with a garrison and a governor for at least three hundred years but in the case of Somalia there was not a single Ottoman soldier there, the territory was simply controlled by Somalis who paid anually a tribute to a Turkish Qadi and allowed the Ottoman navy to dock in it's harbours and use it's shipyards but that was it, and it only consisted of the walled port cities of Zeila and Berbera, the entire interior was firmly under Somali rule. The Somalis of Zeila and Berbera like the Maghrebis never saw the O.E as a imperial power but more like a friendly power that could help them against the Portuguese empire(and this they did) that was attacking ships and port cities on the Red sea.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 23:10
Calvo the fourth picture in your last post is clearly of a person that's either mixed or a Horn African Arab. How are those examples different from the Somalis below?:
 


Edited by Prince of Zeila - 26-Mar-2009 at 23:22
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Post Options Post Options   Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 00:03
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila

Calvo the fourth picture in your last post is clearly of a person that's either mixed or a Horn African Arab. How are those examples different from the Somalis below?:
 






What beautiful ladies.

No offense to anyone, but I think people from the Horn of Africa look more cute than other sub-Saharans... Smile




Edited by goldenstar - 27-Mar-2009 at 00:05
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 00:11
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 00:20
Originally posted by calvo

 
She was kind of strange because when she told us that her family originally came from Morocco, everyone automatically assumed that she was an Arab-Muslim, until she made rather radical comments against Islam and how Europe should defend itself from the "Muslim invasion"; and how her native France has been destroyed by the North African Muslim immigration.Confused 


Muslims hosted her ancestors when queen Isabella the Catholic and her husband Ferdinand of Aragon expelled them... LOL

That's strange she cares so much about France, most Maghrebi Jews I know if not all, do not feel French and tend to be loyal to Israel. Those from Morocco in particular, unlike Algerian Jews France did not Francise them enough, the French "protectorate" of Morocco lasted from 1912 to 1956 only, and people retained their Moroccan citizenship, while Algerian Jews automatically became French citizens in 1870.

The same is true for French-born Arabs or any non-ethnic French ethnicities including Spaniards, we were born and raised here so of course we have a French mentality and culture, and this is our native land and country, but I know few descendents of immigrants identifying with France as a motherland. I do not know about Spain, but in France native people tend to see descendents of foreigners as not exactly the same as them.
 
What you said about LePen is interesting. He has a very bad reputation here in Spain.


His party often complained and told that Spaniards live off European Union tax payers... LOL

Even if they keep on telling Spanish farmers depend on France's money, Spain now became an industrialised nation so they intensify their propaganda towards other poorer countries like Poland.

Yet I heard that a fair percentage of FN votes come from French citizens of African and Carribean descent.
Many years ago I did meet a black Frenchman whose family came from the Carribean, who told me that many of his family members vote FN. Confused


I don't think it is real, it must be an extreme minority of people who are desperate and seek to be accepted as French citizens, while such people wouldn't even accept a blonde and blue eyed Swede as their French counterpart. There are some famous Arabs and Jews in his party too, but their opinion is not representative at all.

I once saw a video of an Algerian mother, who raised her 3 daughters in the admiration of Le Pen, they are totally loyal to him. You probably don't understand French but it is still funny to watch it... LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi0DD1B0Jds


One of my aunts votes for him by the way, she is influenced by her Alsatian husband... LOL







Edited by goldenstar - 27-Mar-2009 at 00:41
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Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2009 at 08:42
That's strange she cares so much about France, most Maghrebi Jews I know if not all, do not feel French and tend to be loyal to Israel. Those from Morocco in particular, unlike Algerian Jews France did not Francise them enough, the French "protectorate" of Morocco lasted from 1912 to 1956 only, and people retained their Moroccan citizenship, while Algerian Jews automatically became French citizens in 1870.
 
She doesn't actually feel French, as she claims, but it doesn't stop her from thinking that Magrebian Muslims are the root of all the problems in France; which was why she moved to Spain, her ancestral homeland.
I remember her saying that the Muslims in France have gained influence at the expense of the Jews, and that Spain should not repeat the same mistake.
 
 
 
 
 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2009 at 13:02
Originally posted by calvo

She doesn't actually feel French, as she claims, but it doesn't stop her from thinking that Magrebian Muslims are the root of all the problems in France; which was why she moved to Spain, her ancestral homeland.
I remember her saying that the Muslims in France have gained influence at the expense of the Jews, and that Spain should not repeat the same mistake.


People thought like her in France a few decades ago, but about Jewish people, accusing them of all the problems occuring in the country. Besides at this time her family was protected from Vichy laws by Moroccan Sultan Mohammed V who refused to apply antisemitic texts in his country in the 40s (Algerian Jews were directly adiministrated by Vichy France and had their citizenship withdrawn and their rights abolished), so she doesn't know how it feels.

As a conclusion I think that moving permanently through centuries is probably her destiny... LOL




Edited by goldenstar - 28-Mar-2009 at 13:13
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