History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedAfrican phenotypes

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 848
Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: African phenotypes
    Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 21:49
There's been a great deal of debates about afro-centrisms lately on this forum.
Quite often we hear about Africa being the cradle of mankind, and that the genetic and physical diversity among the so-called "black race" is considerably larger than the rest of the world's population put together.
I took some time to scan in Google for pictures of African phenotypes in different parts of the continent to compare how people from each region look; and here are the results.
 
San People (Bushmen) of South African
 
Senegal (West Africa) - one type
 
Senegal (another clearly distinguishable type)
 
Uganda (Central Africa)
 
Pygmies (Central Africa). Their height barely reaches 150cm!
 
Ethiopia (the best-looking people in the world... at least in my eyes)
 
Somalia (East African horn)
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 407
Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 23:51
Originally posted by calvo

 
 
There's been a great deal of debates about afro-centrisms lately on this forum.
 
I took some time to scan in Google for pictures of African phenotypes in different parts of the continent to compare how people from each region look; and here are the results.
 
San People (Bushmen) of South African
 
Senegal (West Africa) - one type
 
Senegal (another clearly distinguishable type)
 
Uganda (Central Africa)
 
 
Pygmies (Central Africa). Their height barely reaches 150cm!
 
 
 
 
 
These continental Africans share more resemblance to typical ( non-mixed ) Black-American population.
 
 
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 03:49

U.S. Blacks are, in average 17% Europeans. That percentage varies, though, between regions. Khoisan and Pygmy peoples are groups different from Black Africans in genetics.

Besides, here you are missing other types of Africans, like Horners, North Africans and Malgaches, besides populations that have migrated in recent times.

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 848
Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 08:02
Of course, what I've posted are just a few samples of different regions in Africa. When I have time I'd post more.
A friend of mine who has travelled extensively in Africa claim that in Senegal alone there are 2 or 3 clearly distinguishable phenotypes; as there also are in Ethiopia and Uganda.

But by looking at the faces of these very photos, it is rather obvious that what we call "black Africans" exhibit features as distinct from one another as that between Europeans, East Asians, and Native Americans.

I don't think that anyone could classify the Bushmen (San) and the Somalian into the same "racial type" because the differences are too blatantly obvious.
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4617
Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 09:18
San and Pygmy are genetically distinct from surrounding Niger-Congo-Bantu speakers (ie 'black Africans'), so they are not simply a different phenotypes of one 'race'. Actually it would most probably be offensive, since these to groups lost out to these other Africans in a big way and still suffer.

skin pigment is not sign of genetic relationships or 'race'.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 16:22

Indeed. San and Pigmies suffer as much discrimination comming from Bantues and other Black Africans as natives in other latitudes.

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 848
Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2009 at 11:01
People of the Nuba mountains of southern Sudan.
 
It seems like they have slight Mongoloid features.. interesting
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 848
Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2009 at 11:22
More examples of Ethiopians.
Apparently there are a number of distinct ethnic groups in Ethiopia, and I have no idea which face belongs to which ethnicity.
 
There is substantial admixture with Arabs, and most Ethiopian ethnic groups speak a Semetic language.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Amir100 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 21-Mar-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Amir100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2009 at 15:13
Originally posted by calvo

More examples of Ethiopians.
Apparently there are a number of distinct ethnic groups in Ethiopia, and I have no idea which face belongs to which ethnicity.


 

There is substantial admixture with Arabs, and most Ethiopian ethnic groups speak a Semetic language.

 



 


 


 


 


 



The first picture is an Amharic girl, the white dress is typical an northern Ethiopian Amharic dress.

pictures 2-3 are also northernwest ethiopian mostly coptic christain from the Amharic and Tigrinya ethnic groups

the last 3 picture could be any groups, they be be from the Gurage, oromo and anyone number of cushtic or semetic group in ethiopia.


Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 848
Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 19:30
Thanks for the info. I'd like to visit that country some day.
 
In general Horn Africans have mixed to a great deal with Arabs and most of them look "mulatto".
 
 
Back to Top
goldenstar View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 09-Mar-2009
Location: Europe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
Post Options Post Options   Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 20:58
Originally posted by calvo

In general Horn Africans have mixed to a great deal with Arabs and most of them look "mulatto".

More examples of Ethiopians.
Apparently there are a number of distinct ethnic groups in Ethiopia, and I have no idea which face belongs to which ethnicity.

There is substantial admixture with Arabs, and most Ethiopian ethnic groups speak a Semetic language.


Considering a large part of the population or most of them as you say, look mixed, and considering the population of Ethiopia and the rest of the Horn of Africa is not small at all but 2 times bigger than that of all the combined states of Arabia, I do not know if the mixing is recent and can be called modern Arab admixture.

Perhaps it occured in very ancient times when those who later became the Arabs of Arabia formed a new population with the Black ancestors of people of the Horn of Africa.



These people strangely look a bit like the Arabs of Mauritania  (aka modern Moors, not the same people as ancient Moors of today Northern Maghreb), who are a mixture of North Africans and Blacks. It is no hasard that people from the Horn of Africa are living near the Arabian peninsula and are the only sub-Saharans speaking Semitic tongues and Cushitic tongues, which also belong to the Chamito-Semitic aka Afro-Asian language family.



Mauritanian Arabs















As I said thousands of times earlier, Afrocentrist panAfricanism is senseless because having a similar hair texture and skin colour doesn't make thousands of different ethnicities and languages one single nation, Africa is as diverse as Asia, a Southern African VS a Western African are as different as a Chinese VS a Pakistani, the Black colour just confuses people...





Edited by goldenstar - 24-Mar-2009 at 21:28
Back to Top
Prince of Zeila View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 20-Mar-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 34
Post Options Post Options   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 23:33

Salaam/Greetings!

Calvo i'm very certain that if Horn of Africans were shipped across the new world instead of West Africans that your current opinion of them looking 'mullato' wouldn't exist because instead of the West African phenotype (that is dominant in modern African Americans consisting of more broader features) the Horn African phenotype would have been projected in Western popular culture, which swept the globe in the last century and through the influence of this medium you would have probably been more familiar with the looks of this part of Africa. Your not the first person to simplistically explain away Horn African features as being 'due to admixture' but this is refuted by Pre-Historic burial sites in Somalia that demonstrate remains of people that phenotypically resembled the modern Somalis. The narrow features that are common amongst Horn Africans were developed in the Horn of Africa independently, it's not a result of admixture.

Sure there were traders from the wider muslim world that conducted commerce in Somali port cities like Zeila, Mogadishu, Merka, Barawa and Berbera and sure some them of stayed and intermarried with the locals but this is not different from Somali traders who arrived as single men in places like Hyderabad,Aden, Surat, Cairo, Damascus, Jizan and Malacca conducting commerce and other activities there but you don't see me explaining 'away' their phenotypes as a legacy of Somali traders, no that would be horribly paternalistic of me, I hope you understand that is how i see your 'theory' with regards to a 100 million + population. In the interior of Somalia there are over 30 ruined stone cities and towns and this where the majority of the Somali population lived who didn't mingle with foreigners. Not to forget Horn African ethnic groups like the Beta Israel and the Borana who looked/look no different from a Somali or an Amhara yet were historically one of the most isolated groups in the Horn of Africa.

This is not an attack on you Calvo but that 'theory' is very similar to the theories held by fringe groups that proclaim King Tut was this and that because of so and so - never mind the foundations of their theories are always entirely based on speculation and biased research. This is something that continues to plague Horn Africans in getting people to recognise them as ancient groups that have independently evolved their phenotype through environmental adaption as oppose to intermixing.

Somalis

Beta Israel

Boranas/Oromos

Afars

Amhara

There are many more other Horn African groups but my PC is painfully slow and i don't have the time to continue!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 848
Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 08:05
Very handsome people, the horn Africans generally are, especially the women.
When I said Mulatto, I was just speaking of my impression as the typical "Horn African" look reminds me of people who're a mixture of West-African/Spanish or West African/Berber.

Interesting info that you provided, because with the Horn of Africa just across the strait from the Arabian peninsula, it's be easy to assume that there was gene flow across the strait. If many ethnic groups speak a Semetic language, then culturally they must have had significant contact as well.

Are Beta Israel Jews? Do they descend from Jewish immigrants from the Middle East or are they locals who had adopted Judaism?
Back to Top
goldenstar View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 09-Mar-2009
Location: Europe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
Post Options Post Options   Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 13:24
Originally posted by calvo

Are Beta Israel Jews? Do they descend from Jewish immigrants from the Middle East or are they locals who had adopted Judaism?


Physically they look exactly like other Ethiopians, while Middle-Eastern Jews look Middle-Eastern and European Jews look European.

Falasha Jews (Beta Israel) are not always accepted, not all Jews see them as their counterparts because some argue their rites are Christian and think they are only used as a demographic weapon to face the quick growth of the Palestinian population. In Israel they were forbidden from giving their blood to hospitals "because of aids". Interior minister called them Christian imposteurs.



Israeli minister in Ethiopian racism row


Israel's interior minister faces accusations of racism after he suggested suspending the policy of allowing Ethiopians with Jewish ancestry to move to the country.

While rabbinical authorities judge the so-called Falash Mura to be sufficiently Jewish to qualify for Israeli citizenship, Meir Sheetrit said they were not really Jewish and had been let in only because of "political correctness".

In remarks that incensed the large Falasha community already in Israel, he implied that Ethiopians were fleecing the state by leaving the economic hardship of their birthplace and enjoying comfortable new lives in Israel.

"Who needs them?" he said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post. "They are all Christians. We need to take care of the future of Israel and this immigration will never finish."

His comments were denounced as racist by senior members of the Falasha community who pointed out that Jews from white countries were allowed into Israel without any question from the authorities.

"The way he is expressing himself has a smell of racism about it because he would not say such statements to any other immigrants from America or Russia," said Avraham Neguise, chairman of the Representatives of Ethiopian Immigrant Organisations in Israel.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1559361/Israeli-minister-in-Ethiopian-racism-row.html




Edited by goldenstar - 25-Mar-2009 at 13:27
Back to Top
Prince of Zeila View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 20-Mar-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 34
Post Options Post Options   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 22:54
Originally posted by calvo

Very handsome people, the horn Africans generally are, especially the women.
When I said Mulatto, I was just speaking of my impression as the typical "Horn African" look reminds me of people who're a mixture of West-African/Spanish or West African/Berber.
 
Salaam/Greetings! 
 
Well Calvo I can't force you to take on a different impression of the Horn of Africa since that is your right, but i'm very confident that if you were in close proximity of Horn Africans that your impression of them eventually would change.    

Interesting info that you provided, because with the Horn of Africa just across the strait from the Arabian peninsula, it's be easy to assume that there was gene flow across the strait.
 
Of course this happened, in which two regions of the world where people have been trading and interacting for millenia's with one another didn't this occur? It's natural and logical, but it was mainly confined to port cities and not the interior where the bulk of the two populations resided so it would be unwise to use that historical relationship as an explanation for the phenotype of Horn Africans. 
 
If many ethnic groups speak a Semetic language, then culturally they must have had significant contact as well.
 
I agree, but i'm not a linguist and i'm not going to pretend that i am one, but from Wiki:
 
The "homeland" of the South Semitic languages is widely debated, but is believed to have been Northern Ethiopia and Eritrea or the southwest corner of the Arabian Peninsula. The modern and historic presence of South Semitic Ethiopian languages (and Ethiopic script) in Africa is believed by some to be due to a (backwards) migration of South Arabian speakers from Yemen within the last few thousand years. Such a migration would be a "backwards" one in that Afro-Asiatic languages are assumed to have arisen in Africa originally and moved into the Middle East and Arabian Peninsula in the form of Proto-Semitic, since all major branches of the larger Afro-Asiatic are found in Africa. Others, such as A. Murtonen (1967), and Lionel Bender (1997)[1], dispute this view, suggesting that Semitic may have originated in Ethiopia. - South Semetic
 

Are Beta Israel Jews?
 
They are and Judaism in Ethiopia is actually quite old, individuals like Queen Yudit and the Jewish explorer Eldad spring to mind, but like Goldenstar noted there are those who question their authenticity. 
 
Do they descend from Jewish immigrants from the Middle East or are they locals who had adopted Judaism?
 
Beta Israelis carry one of the oldest lineages in the Horn of Africa and probably split somewhere in the past from the cushitic people known as the 'Agaws' who ruled the Zagwe Dynasty. The date of their conversion to Judaism is a mystery to me though. 
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 848
Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 08:28
Originally posted by goldenstar


Physically they look exactly like other Ethiopians, while Middle-Eastern Jews look Middle-Eastern and European Jews look European.


You're right, although according to genetic analysis, despite Ashkenazi Jews have a typical "central european" look, most of them could trace their ancestry to the Middle East; and they're apparently genetically more related to Middle-Easterners than to European gentiles.
The phenotype could have changed through centuries of adaptation and to some degree of intermarriage (in which the gentile spouse converted to Judaism).
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 848
Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 08:47
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila


Well Calvo I can't force you to take on a different impression of the Horn of Africa since that is your right, but i'm very confident that if you were in close proximity of Horn Africans that your impression of them eventually would change.   
 
Beta Israelis carry one of the oldest lineages in the Horn of Africa and probably split somewhere in the past from the cushitic people known as the 'Agaws' who ruled the Zagwe Dynasty. The date of their conversion to Judaism is a mystery to me though. 


I'm sure you're right. I've never been to the Horn of Africa (the closest I got to was southern Egypt), and personally I've never known anyone from that area; and those who are unfamiliar to us always look "similar".
From the photos that I see, there's also a fair difference in phenotype between Eritrea, Ethiopia, and Somalia. Many photos and videos of Ertireans look considerably "whiter"; while the Somalians tend to be darker.
I always thought that certain ethnicities in Somalia could trace their lineage to Arabs (and are proud of it), at least that was what I read in an article some years ago in a Spanish newspaper.

The theory of the Semetic language family originating in Africa is interesting; and I never knew that there were so many speakers in East Africa.
For most Europeans, "Semetic" is almost synonymous with Arabs and Jews.

Yes... the conversion of Beta Israel to Judaism is interesting.
I often wonder how they differ to Jews of other origins in Israel as far as daily customs are concerned. I could imagine that a Russian Jew, American Jew, Iranian Jew, and Ethiopian Jew would have developed radically different daily habits and beliefs.












Back to Top
goldenstar View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 09-Mar-2009
Location: Europe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
Post Options Post Options   Quote goldenstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 13:48
Originally posted by calvo

Yes... the conversion of Beta Israel to Judaism is interesting.
I often wonder how they differ to Jews of other origins in Israel as far as daily customs are concerned. I could imagine that a Russian Jew, American Jew, Iranian Jew, and Ethiopian Jew would have developed radically different daily habits and beliefs.


I never met any; but I suppose they're totally Ethiopian in culture, European Jews I meet are European in culture, while Maghrebi Jews I know are not different from French born Maghrebi Muslims, they're influenced by their local environment.

You're right, although according to genetic analysis, despite Ashkenazi Jews have a typical "central european" look, most of them could trace their ancestry to the Middle East; and they're apparently genetically more related to Middle-Easterners than to European gentiles.

The phenotype could have changed through centuries of adaptation and to some degree of intermarriage (in which the gentile spouse converted to Judaism).


Other studies told the contrary, scientists have been contradicting each other about this topic for decades, and since there is an ideological battle between Palestinians and Israelis, who claim they have an ancestral right on Palestine (Zionism) while Palestinian intellectuals see them as Western alien imposteurs of Jewish faith, I wouldn't believe the entire neutrality of such studies because made by teams that include plenty of Israeli universities and scientists. Not that they're not competent scientists, but since the intellectual and political elite themselves in Israel often contradict basic history by claiming Palestinians are invaders from Arabia who stole the land from the true natives (European Jews), they may have their own interpretation, as for the Falasha Jews who are clearly not Midle-Eastern racially but are strangely considered as more native than Palestinians themselves by ideologists because of some Midlde-Eastern genes found in them.

Recently, on a French reportage, an Israeli archaeologist deliriously said the fact king Herod of Judea ruled in today Palestine meant all the land belonged to all the world Jews and not to Palestinians...


Y chromosome evidence for a founder effect in Ashkenazi Jews

Almut Nebel1,2,4, Dvora Filon2, Marina Faerman3, Himla Soodyall1 and Ariella Oppenheim2



Recent genetic studies, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe. However, Ashkenazim have an elevated frequency of R-M17, the dominant Y chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow. In the present study of 495 Y chromosomes of Ashkenazim, 57 (11.5%) were found to belong to R-M17. Detailed analyses of haplotype structure, diversity and geographic distribution suggest a founder effect for this haplogroup, introduced at an early stage into the evolving Ashkenazi community in Europe. R-M17 chromosomes in Ashkenazim may represent vestiges of the mysterious Khazars.

Ashkenazi Jews, who have resided in various European countries during the Diaspora, traditionally trace their origin to the Jewish people that lived in the Holy Land before the Roman exile. However, some studies claimed that a substantial part of Ashkenazim were descendants of Eastern European non-Jews. In particular, according to Middle Age historians, the Khazars from a small kingdom near the Caspian Sea converted en masse to Judaism1 and therefore might have contributed to the composition of the emerging Ashkenazi community. Yet, recent genetic studies, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, clearly showed that Ashkenazim are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe.2, 3, 4 Those findings argue against large-scale male-mediated gene flow into the Ashkenazi community during the Diaspora. The male admixture proportion of Europeans in Ashkenazi Jews was estimated to be 0.5% per generation,3 indicating that Ashkenazim remained, to a large extent, genetically isolated throughout their history.

Ashkenazim were found to have a significantly higher frequency of the R-M17 haplogroup compared with Sephardic and Kurdish Jews.4, 5 Interestingly, Behar et al6 reported R-M17 to be the dominant haplogroup in Ashkenazi Levites (approx52%), although rare in Ashkenazi Cohanim (1.3%) and Israelites (4%). R-M17, the most common haplogroup in Eastern Europe, was suggested to have originated and started to expand in the Ukraine, probably in a Paleolithic population after the Last Glacial Maximum about 13 000 years ago.5, 7

Our present study demonstrates that R-M17 is a distinctive feature of the Ashkenazim in general and not only of Levites, as reported previously.6 Furthermore, we provide evidence for a founder effect of this haplogroup in Ashkenazim, dated to the first millennium CE.


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n3/abs/5201319a.html




I don't think the phenotype can change by adaptation after only a few centuries of minor climate change, it rather occurs after tens of thousands of years usually. I am not a specialist but if they have more a European face than a Middle-Eastern one it is probably not due to a few intermariages but to an integral part of European ancestry. There were also mass conversions of people in Europe, including in the Jewish medieval kingdom of Khazaria in today Russia and Ukraine, which led to a hypothetic but not proven theory that all Ashkenazis are descended from them, even if it is proven that many are.


Also, I do not know the exact number of Jews who were expelled by the Romans, but it is rather mythological to say all ancient Hebrews were ethnic cleansed, historians say the population mostly remained there and then converted to Christanism , until the majority converted to Islam, even if today a Christian population remains in Palestine. Just like it is mythological to say ancient Hebrews ethnic cleansed and exterminated the whole population of Canaan and repopulated it with Jewish immigrants from the exile of Egypt (Jewish and Christian Biblical versions), history rather says most Cananites adopted Judaism, which is profoundly influenced by Canaan's rites.

I am not making an anti-Zionist debate because this is a History Forum, not Politics, but it is strange that a small number of people expelled from ancient Israel would have multiplied so quickly to reach a number of 15 millions in the first half of the 1900s whithout significant foreign contributions. It would mean this small number of allegedly expelled Jews would have outnumbered highly the people who stayed in the original land, even millions of  German and English immigrants who are now Americans and mixed did not outnumber their original location's people. Some areas of Europe that were much bigger than tiny ancient Israel in size and population, did not have the demographic force to reach the same number in the 21th century (15 million European Jews in 1939), such as Portugal, Ireland, etc.

As for Maghrebi Jews, there is also a theory that they're mainly or partially descended from local Maghrebis converted to Judaism, who then immigrated to Iberia in ancient times and the Middle-Ages, and were expelled there after the Spanish Inquisition of 1492 and the following years. Many ethnic Berbers were converted to judaism, and queen Kahina, who led the fight against Midlde-Eastern Muslim intruders, was said to be of Jewish faith even if her exact religious beliefs remains obscure.



Counting the Founders: The Matrilineal Genetic Ancestry of the Jewish Diaspora

The phylogeographic quest

An important question relates to the geographic origin of the founding lineages, which can be the geographic region corresponding to the ancient Levant, the Diaspora region in which a particular community has resided during the relevant time frame, or a combination of both.

The location of the first Diaspora communities.

The Iranian Jewish mtDNA is particularly rich in Hg H (30.5%, see Tables S1 and Table S3)–the variant of maternal lineages that constitutes on average more than 40% of the mtDNA variation in Europe. Hg H is also well represented in the Iraqi Jewish community with an overall frequency of 11.8% (Tables S1 and Table S3). Meanwhile, Hg H frequency in Ashkenazi Jews of recent European ancestry is 20.4% [4]. This raises an interesting question regarding the possible source of Hg H lineages among the various Jewish communities. Recent progress in the understanding of mtDNA variation in East and West Europe [16]-[18], as well as in the Near East [12] fits with the inference that at least three quarters of Iranian and Iraqi Jewish Hg H genomes belong to sub-Hgs H6, H13 and H14, characteristic of the Near Eastern–Central Asian variants of Hg H. In view of the historical records claiming the establishment of the North African Jewish communities from the Near Eastern Jewish communities, it is noteworthy that the communities do not share their respective major founding lineages.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2323359


I always thought that certain ethnicities in Somalia could trace their lineage to Arabs (and are proud of it), at least that was what I read in an article some years ago in a Spanish newspaper.



I do not know about ethnic Somalis, but there are descendents of "recent" Arab immigrants in the Horn of Africa, including the Rashaida tribe.









The theory of the Semetic language family originating in Africa is interesting; and I never knew that there were so many speakers in East Africa.
For most Europeans, "Semetic" is almost synonymous with Arabs and Jews.


Because it is basically the language of the Arabs and their ancestors and that of ancient Jews, most speakers of Afro-Asiatic are in the Arab World, even if a big part live in the Horn of Africa.

The exact origin of Semitic and Afro-Asiatic may be Western Asia, the Horn of Africa, or North Africa, but even in the case of the Horn of Africa it would certainly not mean that it is Black languages as a common Afrocentrist idea pretends, otherwise European languages would be Indian as Indo-European tongues may originate from India.

The article of Wikipedia says most of the branches of Afro-Asiatic are found in Africa, but it also involve Berber dialects and the ancient Egyptian language in the North of the continent, wordplays from Afrocentrists doesn't change the fact most Afro-Asiatic speakers are in the Arab World, while most speakers of Indo-European tongues are in Asia (Indians, Pakistanis, Afghans, Iranians, and so on) not Europe, which doesn't mean Europeans are Indian or even Asiatic.




Edited by goldenstar - 26-Mar-2009 at 15:42
Back to Top
Prince of Zeila View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 20-Mar-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 34
Post Options Post Options   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 15:03
Salaam/Greetings!
 
Originally posted by calvo

I'm sure you're right. I've never been to the Horn of Africa (the closest I got to was southern Egypt), and personally I've never known anyone from that area; and those who are unfamiliar to us always look "similar".

Exactly Calvo! Who knows in the future when you have visited the Horn of Africa and have been amongst Horn of Africans for a considerable time, maybe it will be YOU that's correcting people because of your experiences!  Tongue

I always thought that certain ethnicities in Somalia could trace their lineage to Arabs (and are proud of it), at least that was what I read in an article some years ago in a Spanish newspaper.

In Somalia we have a system known as 'Ancestor count' where each clan has a table in which they can trace their descent back to ancient patriachs. Most Somalist scholars have pointed out that some of the lineages pre-date Islam and have simply been transformed into Islamic figures to suit the religion during the peaceful conversion of the Somali population. Compare this to the British royals and nobles in medieval time that traced their descent back to the Anatolian Trojans because of the prestige(matter fact even the Romans did this in antiquity) but when it comes to clear concrete facts these mystical descent stories are just fairy tales. Arabs are a great people and most Somalis feel great affinity towards them, especially the Omanis and the Yemenis and this sentiment would have been the same even if Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was not an Arab but it would be a mistake to think Arabs have a higher status than let's a Pakistani or a Chechen in the average Somali person eyes or that Somalis worship 'Arabs' which is something militant Afrocentric types have acussed me or my compatriots off, everytime i or a fellow countrymen didn't adhere to their nazi - ideology because we are 'muslim' (like a billion other non Arabs on this planet).  

From the photos that I see, there's also a fair difference in phenotype between Eritrea, Ethiopia, and Somalia. Many photos and videos of Ertireans look considerably "whiter"; while the Somalians tend to be darker.

Well that's not entirely correct since Ethiopia and Eritrea are ethnically heterogeneous countries consisting of several distinct ethnic groups. The Afars, Sahos, HararisOromos and the Bejas all resemble the Somalis to such an extant that you probably would have a hard time distinguishing them from one another. Amongst the Highlanders you have the Tigrinyas, Amharas, Gurages, Tigres and Beta Israelis who even I have a problem differentiating from one another. In general all of these ethnic groups overlap in terms of 'looks' and skincolor throughout the region. In a average Somali family you could find a very light brother and a very dark sister and then again a very light sister and a very dark brother which shows that even amongst siblings you will see diversity in skincolor.  

The theory of the Semetic language family originating in Africa is interesting; and I never knew that there were so many speakers in East Africa. For most Europeans, "Semetic" is almost synonymous with Arabs and Jews.

You could compare it with the Pacific tree Frog that makes the sound 'Ribbit'. Today most of the world thinks all frogs go ''Ribbit'' when it's only the Pacific tree frog that is present in L.A, Hollywood that makes that particular sound. The rest of the frog world has the most interesting and bizarre sounds but nobody knows about this because decades of Hollywood projection of the Pacific tree frogs in commercials and films has indoctrinated the masses into thinking that ''Ribbit'' is to frogs what 'woef woef' is to dogs.

Similarly the term 'Anti-Semetism' is exclusively used to describe hatred towards Jews/Israelis even when it comes from the 'Semetic Arabs'

Yes... the conversion of Beta Israel to Judaism is interesting.
I often wonder how they differ to Jews of other origins in Israel as far as daily customs are concerned. I could imagine that a Russian Jew, American Jew, Iranian Jew, and Ethiopian Jew would have developed radically different daily habits and beliefs.

This is logical because there is diversity in daily customs, clothing styles and architecture in allmost all of the major faiths on this planet practiced by so many different people wether it's Islam,Christianity or Buddhism so it would make sense for distinct ethnic groups that profess the Jewish faith to create distinct Jewish cultures of their own.


 

 

 

Back to Top
Prince of Zeila View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 20-Mar-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 34
Post Options Post Options   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 15:24
Salaam/Greetings!
 
Goldenstar the Rashaidas are a very interesting people because they keep to themselves and are very mysterious. I think their migration had something to do with the Ottomans.  BTW there are also full blooded Arabs and descendants of Arabs in Somali port cities like Merka and Barawa
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.